Ordinance Committee

1 ORDINANCE SUB-COMMITTEE EDWARDSVILLE PLAN COMMISSION March 2, 2015 6:00 PM PRESENT ABSENT G. Coffey, Chair P. Pitts M. Rabe, Vice Chair J. Mullane M. Pierceall B. Schlueter, PC Chairman M. Riechmann M. Brandmeyer, Madison County Planning & Zoning W. Williams, Staff E. Williams, Staff S. Hanson, Staff C. Porter, Staff L. Schneck, Staff PUBLIC ATTENDANCE Kyle Anderson, Greater Gateway Area Realtors Jeff Lantz, Lantz Homes Jeff Lants II, Lantz Homes Brian Gebhardt, 7013 Richmond Dr, Glen Carbon, IL Jeff Schmidt, 127 Forest Ct, Troy, IL Julie Leding, 7023 Lasorda Dr, Edwardsville, IL Jeff Campbell, 361 Breckenridge Dr, Belleville, IL Robert Schmidt, 6736 Middlegate Ln, Glen Carbon, IL Robert Plummer, 6930 Goshen Rd, Edwardsville, IL Jason Plummer, 7348 Kindlewood, Edwardsville, IL Roger Bucht, 14 Oakdale Lake, Glen Carbon, IL Bob Rohrkaste, 1324 Troy Rd, Edwardsville, IL Lisa Shashack, 917 Westward Village, Maryville, IL Ryan Butler, 2020 Golf Course View, Edwardsville, IL Kevin Jones, 67 Birdie Ct, Edwardsville, IL Gregg Korte, 8479 Greenbriar Est, Edwardsville, IL A meeting of the Plan Commission's Ordinance Sub-Committee was held on Monday, March 2, 2015, and the following proposed ordinance was discussed: 1. I-55 Corridor Hanson gave an update on where the Ordinance Committee is with the proposed ordinance amendment. The committee has met twice previously. There were changes requested at both of these meetings which are reflected below. 1. Remove the minimum height requirement for single detached for Estate, Countryside Tract, and Farm lot types. 2. Add a 750 square foot minimum requirement for dwelling units. 3. Add the requirement for minimum .044 inch thickness for vinyl siding for residential architectural standards in Section 3.7.7. 4. Increase the maximum lot size to 14,520 square feet in single family detached  2 and decreasing the minimum lot size for the estate lot type to 14,520 square feet. 5. Step down commercial building heights that are within 100 feet of a residential district to a maximum of 2 stories unless a variance is approved. The intent is that there will not be commercial buildings looking down from great heights into residential back yards. 6. Add a provision for non-conforming uses and structures in Article 1. This would state that existing structures and uses will not be made non-conforming under the code. Any existing non-conformities will be governed by the applicable jurisdiction. These were the more significant changes. There were several other minor changes. All changes will be made to the County’s website and reflected in the materials brought forward for the next Plan Commission meeting on March 16th. Madison County’s public hearing is set for March 5th. A. Section 5 – Land Uses NAICS Code is a code designed by the Federal Government for every type of industry. Based on those codes, they were able to tailor the allowed land uses in the I-55 Corridor. As an example, they will not allow for a confined animal feeding operation type of use but could allow for the manufacturing of computer parts. Heavy manufacturing industrial uses are not allowed. They did not want to compete with the Gateway Center area. The uses are outlined in the charts. Some uses may only be allowed through a Special Use Permit such as a gas station or any drive thru. If the use is not listed, then it is not allowed. It was pointed out about the inclusion of modular homes in Estate Lots. B. Section 6 – Street Design Standards These street design standards have been on the County’s website for about 2 years. It lays out the type of streets in each development district. This will need to be coordinated with the City’s codes to make sure both requirements are consistent with the Land Development Code. It was agreed, that in some instances that each community may be allowed to defer to their current standards. It was brought up about the Joined Trail and if there was a need for an equestrian trail. Hanson explained at a previous meeting with the public, some citizens thought that would be beneficial. It could be revisited to see if it really would be appropriate. In looking through the street designs, it goes from Joined Trails to Parkways. It seems to go from one extreme to the other. Parkways are the other extreme and needs to be scaled down. Staff will need to review this section to make sure it will work with the City’s current transportation plan. MCT has trails now so would there be a need to construct new trails? The connections to the trails would need to be built but those trails are privately owned and maintained. All bike trails are excluded from the zoning map. The complete section on Street Design Standards will be reviewed with Eric Williams and Ryan Zwijack. All streets are included in this document for future development in this corridor. This is just showing the street types allowed but not what is required. Having more options and flexibility in this code would be better for the next 20 years. As shown on Page 6-7, it provides the flexibility to allow all  3 types of development. Coffey pointed out on page 6-4 (S) states for developments of 25 lots or more shall be require to have 2 or more entrances. What is the current standard for the City? Hanson stated the current ordinance is for 100 lots or stubbing to another property. Pierceall asked about the requirement for granite curbs. Riechmann stated it sounds worse than it is. Pierceall thought that would be more of a cost for the developers and replacement cost to the City. Hanson stated the City already has a curb design standard and requirement for sidewalks. The charts within each design needs to be reviewed for the requirements. They are not consistent with the City’s codes. Page 6-11 Planter type stated tree wells but the landscape type has optional raingardens. This needs to be consistent – Landscape type should say tree wells/raingardens. The paragraphs on pages 6-15 and 6-16 should say residential/commercial streets since this is mixed use in neighborhoods. It should also be consisting of one (1) travel lane in both directions. The committee felt there was still a lot of review of the text which needs to be done before presenting it to Plan Commission. The County has hired a firm to do a transportation study which would provide them with information regarding how much investment would be needed to bring access to the inaccessible areas. This would be an economic development concern. Brian Gebhardt, Gebhardt Homes, asked if anyone has talked to a developer about the effects of this proposal. He has heard about the cost and how it was effecting the City but nothing about the builder. It seems to be one sided. Hanson stated this is a different standard here. There is a form based code which they are expecting to be a long lasting type design. The same goes for the roadway standards. They are trying to provide amenities for the town center. Coffey reminded the public that this committee is the very first committee to review this proposal. It still has to go through the Plan Commission and on to City Council. They are just trying to take an area of land and plan for future growth. Gebhardt stated he understood that. He feels now is a good time to speak out since it is in the beginning stages. If he has to pass along more development cost to the customer, there may be less desire to build in that area. He would like to make the committee aware of those situations. Coffey assured him that there has already been a lot of input from the public since it  4 has been going on since 2003 and those considerations have been addressed. Rob Schmidt, RLP Development, stated he has been to a lot of the public meetings and this is an ever evolving thing. Just like the things from today, is that available? Coffey explained these documents are available on the Madison County’s website. Schmidt stated he went on their site and none of the things the committee has in hand is what he printed off the site an hour and half ago. Coffey reassured him that all the articles are on the website. Schmidt stated he has been on the website numerous times and as he gets back onto the site it is ever evolving. When will it get to a point when they can actually take a look at this as people who work in the community and know what they will have to do to maintain operating as a business in the I-55 Corridor Plan? Who is paying for all this? Has the school districts been consulted on any of this? How is it going to affect the school district? As we look forward, especially since majority is in Triad School District. The school district boundary is Goshen Road. Everything to the South of Goshen Road in this I-55 Corridor is in Triad School District. He has attended a lot of the public meetings and he didn’t think the people had the full understanding of what this plan contained. Today, he doesn’t have the full understanding of it. Riechmann stated the reason he feels that the plan is constantly changing is because it still is. This is the first time, they as an Ordinance Committee, have had to sit down and look it together. It is their job to look at it and make suggested changes. In the process, they make the recommendations and then a new document is created which will be available at the next Plan Commission meeting. They have been taking all the feedback from all those meetings since 2003 and refining and making tweaks to reflect what those folks have been saying. It’s not that the committee is trying to change it constantly so no one knows what it is; they are just trying to make it better. Bob Plummer, RLP Development, present to speak regarding this proposal. “I have heard some of the comments and understand what she is trying to say but I had developed in this area about 3000 lots. There are builders in this room. I get what you say that you have had all these meetings and there has been a gathering of public in support of it. I have never had a single person come to me and say they wish they had alleys in their subdivision. Never. I never had anyone come to me and say, “Man, I wish you would quite making cul-de-sacs because we don’t like them.” As a matter of fact, everyone wants to live on a cul-de-sac, they don’t want to have alleys behind the house, and they want to be able to have friends and visitors over and park in front of their house. So I don’t understand where that is coming from. And I don’t understand 25 lots and there is 2 entrances. We have subdivisions just like Vicksburg and I think a few people in this room live in Vicksburg. There is 225/227 homes in there, we developed it, and it functioned forever with 2 entrances and now there is a third because of Governors Way. There’s 3 entrances serving 225 homes. We, arguable, probably have 180 residents in Ebbets Field with 2 stub streets going to adjoining acreage, when that gets developed at some time, with one entrance. There are 180 homes, I have 2 daughters who live in there and I am in and out of there all of the time. I never have to wait to pull in or out. I don’t understand. And then I want to ask you, around this  5 ground there is 5, 6, 7 subdivisions that I can think of and I would be proud to live in any one of them. So what is wrong with those subdivisions and what is wrong with the people that live in them? If that is what they are buying, if that is what the public wants, why are we changing it? Coffey stated the point about 25 lots is a good one. That is why they are going through this process. They are changing things and have been at the last two meeting as well. He thinks the section about 25 lots needs to be looked at. He didn’t disagree with Mr. Plummer. With regard to existing subdivisions and the ability to build them, he didn’t know if this code would necessarily prevent that. Robert and Jason Plummer stated “It does!” R. Plummer stated “You are wanting square blocks. You are wanting no cul-de- sacs. What is wrong with those things?” Riechmann pointed out that there is nothing wrong with that. It is wonderful that they have the opportunity for people to live in a variety of housing types. Personally, she lives in historic Edwardsville. She could walk downtown if she wanted to. She prefers that and likes the historic grid system, the walkability of it and the ability to go to restaurants with her kids. It is a personal preference. What she understands, is that at some point, the residents of Edwardsville said they would like a second town center. They would not like to have to always go to Main Street Edwardsville. They would like to have anchor points throughout the community of robust development. This type of development is what creates the Main Street feel with residential and commercial mixed uses. It creates a historic feel. Scott Hanson had talked about creating a lasting appearance of a new development at the last joint meeting with the Plan Commission. R. Plummer stated “I am all for an additional town center. Explain to me why someone who lives on a cul-de-sac can’t walk to a town center. Why do they have to live on a square block to walk to a town center?” Riechmann stated cul-de-sacs, by design, are not necessarily walkable in the same way as the downtown is. Jason Plummer, RLP Development, present to speak regarding this proposal. “With all due respect with what you are saying, if you like that so much, how would you feel if someone came in and took a huge swath of Edwardsville and said it has to be all just like Ebbets Field, or all cul-de-sacs, or all of this, because that is what you are doing here. That is nice but the fact of the matter is when it comes to new development, far more people are moving into the Ebbets Fields, the Vicksburgs, the Savannah Crossings in Glen Carbon and all that than they are moving into these communities. I have to be honest with you and I have a beef with this whole thing. There is not a person sitting up here that knows what is in this document. For instance, Scott Hanson, who came up to the office and sat down with us, and was greatly appreciated, had a lot of great ideas and told us that he was the point person on this. We said that the City Council level or the Mayoral level or whatever level, if someone has a question, who do they come to? I doubt the entire City Council has read this binder. I doubt the Mayor had read this binder. He said they come to me. It was us, a couple of months ago, in our office in Edwardsville that explained to Mr. Hanson that ranch houses weren’t allowed in these developments. And he said oh yea they are. They had to get the book out and show him that ranch houses  6 weren’t allowed in any of these developments. Supposedly, they have been working on this for 11 or 12 years. You would think after 11 or 12 years, the point person on this didn’t know ranch houses weren’t allowed. That is a big problem. And I guarantee there is nobody up here who knows what they are doing. And you guys want to pass this because a bunch of consultants have said this is the right thing to do. But none of these consultants have developed a subdivision in Edwardsville. None of these consultants have built a house in this area. None of these consultants have bought a house in this area. None of these consultants have lived in this area and that is the problem. I don’t want to have to get into FOIAs and all that but I sure would be fascinated to know how much tax money and grant money has been spent on consultants for this process. I would like to know who the consultants are. I would like to know where they are from. I would like to dive into this because the fact of the matter is when we asked Mr. Hanson to explain to us… Clearly, this came from somewhere. This must be a great idea. Explain to us where you came up with this idea. Give us an example of somewhere, in the general region that an idea like this worked, prospered, people chose to move there, and was a great addition to the community. The only response we could keep getting was New Town in St. Charles. And for anybody that followed New Town, knows the failure that project has been for numerous developers, numerous builders, numerous financial institutions, and for everybody that lives there. I personally, a colleague in my Navy unit, lives in New Town. Paid over $300,000 for his house. Owes over $200,000 on his house. Has it listed for $180,000 and can’t sell it because nobody wants to live in New Town. So what you guys are doing is taking personal preferences like yours and trying to force them on the entire community. Instead of letting the market decide what to do. I just find that very unattractive. R. Plummer stated, “I am all for a new town center. Maybe a small zoned area around there. Whatever small is, I don’t know. Zone around there where you could have blocks and people could walk. But let me go back to a really simple thing. If you could convince me that somebody who lives on a cul-de-sac could not walk to a town center because it’s not a square block and it’s not conducive to it, I might buy into this. You just try to convince me of that. Jeff Lantz, Lantz Homes, present to speak regarding the petition. He wanted to know what is considered walkable. How far would they walk? Riechmann stated ¼ to ½ mile depending on the age and physical ability. Lantz didn’t have a problem with doing that around that area but when you get outside of that area to make a decision now for something 15-20 years from now. There should be something in place for it if somebody wants to do it, they can. The way he reads it now, they can’t do the conventional neighborhoods that they have done. It was stated walkable, but it is well past the walkable area. There is a lot of stuff in the document that people don’t understand. If this is adopted and no one understands it, how does it get fixed later? Brandmeyer stated there is room for change. There are details that need to be worked out. The first document was 2000 pages and it has been cut down to 150 pages within the past 2 years. There is room for change. They can address the street design standard changes. There is flexibility to not require alleys in every subdivision. There is flexibility that there could be cul-de-sacs. Lantz asked how they represent themselves on these changes.  7 Brandmeyer stated he is always available for discussion. Schlueter stated there will be an official public hearing in front of the Plan Commission in a couple of weeks. Lantz stated it is a little late for that. Schlueter stated this process has been going forward for over 10 years. She hears some of the frustration. Lantz stated he was involved in the beginning but never contacted after the initial meeting. Somebody from their industry should be a part of it. There is a lot of stuff that should have had input from the developers. He has an idea of who owns majority of the property and if the person is not willing to develop it then it will just sit there. Brandmeyer stated there is room for change. R. Plummer asked, “How does that come about though?” Brandmeyer stated they should talk to either himself or Scott Hanson R. Plummer stated “We will. I have to apologize. Why isn’t there a developer and two builders sitting in on this committee?” Coffey stated none have volunteered. Schlueter stated all of the public hearings have been advertised for multiple years. She was glad they were there giving their input because she certainly wants to listen to it. R. Plummer stated, “Does anybody on this committee own property in the I-55 Corridor? That you are making decisions for people that do.” Coffey stated no. R. Plummer asked Jeff Lantz, “Jeff, I am not trying to put you on the spot. But how many of your customers want alleys?” Lantz told R. Plummer to be careful. He probably has the only thing that has an alley in it but the sales haven’t been great. He has seen things down in Dallas where his niece lives. He has a daughter in Houston with the same thing. They are not quite what you think they should be. It’s kind of an eye sore. R. Plummer asked Coffey, “Greg, have you ever gone over to New Town and driven those alleys?” Coffey replied he has. R. Plummer asked Coffey, “What did you think?” Coffey stated he is not sure how the services work in that development. He has also lived in Chicago where alleys were relatively…(laughing).  8 Brian Gebhardt stated he use to live on Grand Avenue and loved it. They walked downtown all the time. They loved that aspect of it. He doesn’t believe walkability necessarily means rectangular streets and rectangular lots. Fairfield, Vicksburg, and Timberwolf subdivisions have walking paths that go between lots. Something like that is possible too. Brandmeyer stated the block sizes matter but that is a possibility. Ryan Butler stated his wife is a realtor and he is a builder. People call from all over to move to Edwardsville. Why is there a need for this? What is going wrong that all of a sudden something else needs to be done. The people desire to get into the subdivisions. What is the need for this? Brandmeyer stated this plan began in 2003. The land plan was adopted in 2006. This identified several objectives including walkability and building neighborhoods as opposed to subdivisions. In 2008, they started the process for this code. The public was invited. The consultants put on the screen different pictures of what peoples’ preferences were. The code was developed by the ones pointed out. It matches what people preferred. That was the public process and that is what planning does. Lantz asked how the public was notified. Brandmeyer stated he was not here at that time but it was probably advertised in the paper or notices were sent out. R. Plummer stated, “Do you think these public meetings, do you think in the community of 25,000 to 30,000. Do you think you had 1% of the total population attend those meetings?” Brandmeyer stated he could not say. R. Plummer stated, “You can tell me that but you know what, this is somebody else’s grandiose plan that they want to force down the property owners’ throats and try to change something. Jeff Campbell stated it was decided because the consultants put 2 pictures up on a screen and people pick one picture. Brandmeyer stated there was an exercise of series of pictures in order to understand what the preference of the community was. Campbell asked who the consultants are. Brandmeyer stated there were none at this time. They have not worked for them since 2010. Hanson added HOK was the original consultants and then H3. R. Plummer stated, “So Matt, you say that we can be involved and I understand that. When Mr. Hanson was down and we looked at this document, we told him this was just not going to be successful, it’s not doable, it’s not workable. It’s going to be  9 too costly for the developers, for the builders, and for the users but nothing changed.” Brandmeyer asked what they wanted the City to do. J. Plummer stated, “Sometimes it just needs to be taken out of the pasture and until someone can show me an example of something similar to this succeeding in a community similar to this, I think that’s probably the resolution that needs to be considered for this. And I know we spent hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of tax payer dollars on this. And I know that this plan is probably the basis for some of the people’s jobs so they definitely have an incentive to see this plan staying until we get this thing done. But everybody wants a great town. Everybody wants walkable neighborhoods. Everybody wants nice neighborhoods. Everybody wants good subdivisions. Everybody wants local amenities. Everybody wants these things and we are all for them. But you can’t take a plan by consultants who are out of Boston or New England, I forget. But take some plan from some consultant out East and drop it on a community like this, covering such a large area right down the growth corridor. And, you know, that growth corridor is what provides the rooftops for us to have nice shopping areas. For us to have all the nice local restaurants that we have. For us to have the nice schools that we have. And if we kill that growth corridor, which this plan will do, the City is really gonna have a headache on its hands. And I don’t think a lot of those considerations are taken into account. And when someone says that the cost of the developer, its not really even accurate because we all know that the cost is just going to get passed down to the end user. And people can’t afford, in every instance, a $250,000 or $300,000 or $350,000 or $400,000 or $500,000 house. And if you want a livable, walkable, nice community, you gotta allow people to build things that are affordable first. And this plan destroys affordability for a huge chunk of population. R. Plummer stated, “Matt, you just asked the question, ‘What would you like us to do?’ I just pointed out that we have 6 or 7, not us, Arbor Lake is just across the street, Brookshire is across the street from my home. I see people walking up and down our street every minute. Okay, they are walking somewhere. I don’t know if they are just exercising or what. But the fact of what I am saying, we have 6, 7, 8 very successful subdivisions that people want to live in. Like Ryan said, they want to move in. There is your answer. Why not just let us do it. And let the people vote with their wallet. That is easy, real simple. Riechmann stated that area is zoned Agriculture which means anything can be built there. R. Plummer, “Sure it could, but we go through this all the time. Anytime we annex property, the City has great input on what that is going to be. If we wanted to go out there and annex acreage into the City of Edwardsville and we want to put a rendering plant or we want to put a factory, do you think it is going to go through? It’s not.” J. Plummer stated, “I don’t want this meant wrong, but you are playing with people’s money. You are playing with a lot of people’s lively hood. Forget the builders, forget the developers, what about the farmers out there? You take a huge chunk of acreage and start drawing some lines and coloring in the colors and you say this, this and this is going to be worth this and this is going to be worth this and this is going to be worth this. I mean it’s such a random thing by bureaucrats that  10 haven’t been involved in this before. I mean who’s to say because you draw one random line, this farmer has ground that’s zoned this and this farmer has ground that’s zoned this. I mean you’re just playing with people’s lively hoods and it makes no sense to me.” R. Plummer, “Scott, do you think there is anything that is going to be accepted out there has to be annexed into the City that if the City doesn’t want it they are going to accept it? Do you think there is anything?” Hanson stated that is why they are doing this plan. R. Plummer, “Oh no, that’s not. You’re trying to force something down our throats. That’s why you are doing this plan.” Coffey stated Scott is not doing this plan. R. Plummer, “Oh yes Scott is.” Coffey stated it’s not like landing hard, they have parachuted in. You have to plan for growth. So the question is, what is the appropriate plan. Kevin Jones stated there have been a lot of public meetings. Part of the frustration now is that there are more details than what has been presented at the previous public meetings. Personally, he thinks the board has a thankless job. Has anyone done a cost study for this type of plan? What would be the price of homes? Could they be sold and would there be a buyer? Lantz stated it seems there’s not an option. Butler asked if they thought that was fair to tell someone what they can do with their piece of ground. Brandmeyer stated there is room to not require alleys. He agrees that alleys are not appropriate everywhere. He believes there’s room for cul-de-sacs. The Roads have many of the same aspects as what is being done now. The architectural requirements will be the added cost. The City of Edwardsville wants high quality development. R. Plummer stated, “Do you think you haven’t got high quality development now?” Brandmeyer stated it was. Hanson agreed that they are already doing it so he wasn’t sure what the issue is. Riechmann stated, “How do we know that you are going to be the one who develops it.” R. Plummer, “It wouldn’t get through the City if it’s not.” Riechmann asked what if there is a bad developer. R. Plummer, “How could it get through this City if it doesn’t meet what they want?”  11 J. Plummer, “Let me throw something out there and this is more for this side of the room and I mean this sincerely. When Scott came down and gave the presentation and I truly appreciated it because it was very informative, very educational. But my concern with this is so when they are saying different things with this plan. My concern, 2 examples, again was they were working on this thing for 11 years and the point person didn’t know ranch houses weren’t allowed and that’s...” Hanson disagreed. J. Plummer, “You didn’t, Scott and there were other people in the room.” R. Plummer, “Now Scott, you didn’t.” J. Plummer, “There were other people in the room. You didn’t know ranch houses weren’t allowed.” R. Plummer, “As a matter of fact, you even tried to bluff your way through.” J. Plummer, “But let me finish. Okay wouldn’t you say not allowing ranch houses is a pretty big deal?” Hanson asked, “Didn’t we make the change? That was the first thing I announced tonight – the thing we talked about a month ago. We made that change. Can we stop beating on that horse right now?” J. Plummer, “Okay, I won’t mention ranch houses anymore. But now the next thing and I mean this sincerely when we talk about, you know, do we really know what we are doing here as we were told here with the lot widths. And, I forget off the top of my head what they were.” Hanson clarified it was 70 feet max. J. Plummer, “70 feet max. So I said okay. I said, ‘do you know what a lot width is in Ebbets Field or a lot width in Savannah Crossing or a lot width in Gettysburg or a lot width in Vicksburg?’ He had no idea what the lot width was. Hanson stated he knew exactly what the lots widths were. J. Plummer, “He had no idea what the lot widths were. But we all know, everybody wants a variety of types of homes. You go to Savannah Crossing, great homes - $250,000, $225,000, $300,000, $325,000 homes. But you can’t fit a house from Vicksburg or a house from Ebbets Field onto a lot in Savannah. But this plan restricted all these lots to smaller than what we have in Savannah Crossing. So how can you go in and build houses for a variety of people on lots that are smaller than the lot sizes in Savannah and that was the plan. We are going to make you build houses on these lots. Well what did you base this grid from? Did you just pull it out of the air? And, unfortunately, I think they just pulled it out of thin air. So when they say there is a variety of this and a variety of that and all these different things, it’s just not accurate. And how much detail do they really know about the rest of the plan and it’s very frightening. R. Plummer, “If you asked the realtors, if you asked the builders here, one of the things probably the majority of the people want is a 3-car garage. It won’t go on a  12 70 foot wide lot.” J. Plummer, “A 2-car garage would be hard to fit on a 70 foot lot.” Brandmeyer stated they could address the lot size. J. Plummer, “And I appreciate that. I sincerely appreciate that but that is my concern that if we wouldn’t have had that random meeting with Scott, nobody here read it and probably know that ranch houses were not allowed. So I think that there is a lot of due diligence necessary. R. Plummer, “It would have been put in policy and would have never been changed. It would be impossible for us to change it.” Coffey asked if they would take a copy of the proposed code and marked it up. R. Plummer, “How thick is your development code?” Schlueter/Coffey stated 150 pages. It was pointed out that the document they had printed out showed Article 3 was 157 pages. Brandmeyer replied that it has been reduced. The committee explained they were working on the document and after last week’s meeting there have been changes and they do appreciate the public feedback. J. Plummer, “So the next few days, would it be fair to say that there will probably be the 156 or the whatever 150 page one posted online. Like the most up to date one. Brandmeyer agreed. J. Plummer, “Ok so, yea, if there is an opportunity for the folks here in the next few days to see a 150 whatever page one that is the 100% most up-to-date one. I think everybody here would appreciate the opportunity to be able to mark it up and comment on it.” Lantz wanted confirmation that they would have time to respond before they carry on. Coffey stated they are going to move it on to Plan Commission. Schlueter stated it was advertised for the public hearing in front o Plan Commission in 2 weeks. Lantz asked where it was advertised. Schlueter stated it was published in the newspaper. Lantz asked what if they don’t get the paper.  13 Hanson explained certified letters were also sent out to all property owners. Lantz asked if everyone should show up that evening to go through all 150 pages then or should it be addressed prior. Brandmeyer stated he would like to go through issues and solutions with them. He would be glad to meet at his office. Kyle Anderson, Greater Gateway Realtors Association, asked why would it be sent forward if changes still needed to be made. Hanson explained there are not a lot of changes needed to be made. These will all be done prior to the meeting in 2 weeks. Riechmann explained that the Ordinance Committee’s job is done. Anderson stated there is a lot of concern out there and thinks there may be some issues that need addressed before sending it to Plan Commission. He hopes the changes would be incorporated into the new document. Mullane added that Jeff Lantz would not build a 3000 square foot ranch house with a 3- car garage in his development on Randle Street. As it is presented, there are different districts, different types of lots, different types of developments, all the way to lots that are a minimum of 200 feet wide. An Ebbets Field house would not fit on a lot in Hunters Crossing. There has been plan development all along. This is not revolutionary. When ranch homes with 1-car garages were built in Grandview that was revolutionary back then. There needs to be some type of blue print to set this area up. If not, there will be people living in houses that can’t get anywhere in the community because the infrastructure wasn’t planned for. Lantz didn’t have a problem with the planning part. It just needs to be flexible. J. Plummer, “Will all due respect, we are kinda forced. There is a desire, on our end, to develop a subdivision. We don’t build houses but to build a subdivision that meets all the price points within Edwardsville. There are some municipal rules that excludes us from being able to build houses or subdivisions where a $175,000 or $150,000 can go.” The more restrictive the more the cost to develop. Even the permit fees are $12,000 to begin construction. It is very hard to build a house now for under $300,000. It is almost impossible to build an entry level home for a first time buyer, a single person, or a divorced mother. R. Plummer, “In our subdivision we put in and this is my fear. Once something is put in here it is impossible to change it. In our last subdivision, Governors Way, we tried for a couple of years to get villas in there, to get townhomes in there, besides single family. It was going to be a mixed family subdivision of villas, townhomes, and single family. You remember that Eric? We couldn’t get out of the batter’s box on it. And it was gonna be a beautiful subdivision. The scary thing is once this stuff gets moralized on paper, it’s impossible to change it. Just as another throw on it, you understand that they are going to potentially dictate elevations and what they look like and even down to stating bay windows and porches and what type. Does that sound American? Couldn’t the end user pick what they want because these  14 guys build mostly custom homes right here. Couldn’t the end user, who is gonna spend $300,000 pick if they want block window instead of a bay window or maybe a half porch instead of a full porch? The government is going to pick that. Mullane stated the Historic Preservation Commission inputs on the color of shingles on his house. R. Plummer, “But you know that is what you are doing out there. It is going to come to that out there.” Mullane stated he appreciates what HPC does because it maintains the quality and integrity of his neighborhood. R. Plummer, “And we call those Homeowners Associations. I don’t mean that as glib because like Ebbets Field and Vicksburg there is good Homeowners Associations. They maintain that quality. But I think if you let the American people, the American consumer, do it, it’s successful. Lantz if the mix-use subdivisions were already set up, it would be great tool but don’t say that is where it has to go. Mullane stated he never saw a plan other than single family homes. R. Plummer, “Oh no, we went through villas. We went through townhomes. I can bring them back up and show them to you. And I bet you have copies of them Eric. Mullane stated they must have been done prior to Plan Commission. J. Plummer, “That’s not the first subdivision where that happened because again in our meeting with Scott, we were told, ‘We need those and we need townhomes and we need an opportunity.’ The City of Edwardsville killed it in this subdivision and other subdivisions. “It’s an academic plan. I went to the University of Illinois. I studied Urban Planning for a couple of years. I probably took a couple of people off guard. And it’s nothing offensive what I saw brought before a couple people and said here is how we develop communities and here is how these things need to be done. But there are a bunch of academics that have never done this in real life. And the fact of the matter is this is an academic plan. Are there great points to it? Absolutely. A lot of points that I think everybody in the audience would agree to. But it’s very unrealistic as it is right now. And our concern isn’t that good things are going to happen in the community. Our concerns are this plan will be put in place and eliminate total growth. It’s gonna drive the cost to live in the community to a point where a lot of people can’t be here. It’s gonna do a lot of bad things. Maybe, ah, not on purpose, but that’s gonna be the end result. That’s a realistic result. Again, my offer still stands. Show me where a plan like this has worked in a community like this in the Midwest and I will take back everything I have said. But it hasn’t worked.” R. Plummer, “And it’s been tried. It’s been tried! New Town.” J. Plummer, “New Town.”  15 Coffey explained that New Town is like its own community. This development will be closer to the core of town. The point is that there needs to be good affordable housing in this town. He doesn’t know if this plan retards that or not. It seems that there is a fair amount of flexibility. There is a PUD option. Reichmann brought up a good point that the developers in the audience are good developers but there are developers out there who are not and need these standards. There is a balance that has to happen. He sees both sides to this plan. Williams confirmed that the lot width will be increased with Urban Residential. Hanson agreed. He would definitely encourage the feedback from the developers. Gephardt asked why it has to be so strict. He understood there needed to be a plan for growth but why so strict. Hanson stated the goal is have a walkable community in this area. In the 5 districts, there is a wide variety of options for building types. Whatever gets built in these districts, should meet a larger goal to walk to get items such as groceries, get the newspaper, or even see a concert in the Town Center and walk back home. J. Plummer, “We have been focused on the residential and understandably. On the commercial side of it, there is a lot of kind of assumptions being made here that kind of “building it and they will come”. My fear is, let’s say some of the residential occurs and catches fire or people are living there and it’s great. If you look at the plan as is, you won’t find a single developer out there will be able to put the kind of commercial development in that this plan assumes simply because of costs. I mean I know what square footage goes for here in Edwardsville. I know how much it costs to build a building. I know how much the ground will probably cost. You can’t develop a commercial zone like that and get people to pay the prices it would take in order to justify the development. Especially for those types of uses. That is one reason why it doesn’t occur all the time. And, you know, I say to keep in mind the broader assumptions that, “well if these houses come then we will have this type of commercial district.” Well, who is going to develop that and how much city tax payer money is it gonna then take to subsidize the commercial development to make this plan work? It’s going to be expensive.” Coffey confirmed that he was talking specifically about the Town Center concept. J. Plummer agreed. R. Plummer, “I probably have spoken too much but I apologize. But I do have 400 or 500 acres that we have bought. And it concerns me greatly when the government starts telling me what can be built on my property. We always go through every process and the way they have this laid out. Chances are, we are not going to participate. I mean, I don’t know I don’t want too get to patriotic but some parts of this seem very patriotic.” Riechmann asked if he felt there were changes that could be made or if it was the code itself. J. Plummer, “Like a lot of people said and like Jeff said, everybody wants Edwardsville to be a wonderful community. I think, you know, if Edwardsville is a great community, people want to live in Edwardsville. People, you know with what  16 is going on, compared to what is going on in the surrounding communities, it doesn’t mean those communities are bad communities but Edwardsville has a lot of things going for it. It’s got the University. It’s got a great downtown area. It’s got a lot of development. It’s got a lot of good things. But those things came about without some grandiose academic bureaucratic plan that was jammed down people’s throat. It came about because the market provided it. I don’t mean to get too libertarian because that is not where I am going with it. But, this plan could kill the golden goose. That golden goose pays for a lot of your salaries. That golden goose pays for a lot of the wonderful amenities in this area that attracts people to come shop in Edwardsville, to come eat in Edwardsville. Okay, we wouldn’t have those restaurants; we wouldn’t have those grocery stores. We wouldn’t have that stuff without these house types. Riechmann asked Mr. Plummer if he thought the way the town was developed was because there were no plans. J. Plummer, “No. I mean, obviously there is zoning and plans and all of that but if you compare the existing stuff to this. I mean, this is just.” Riechmann stated this is just elevated, standard of excellence that the staff was tasked to achieve through the planning process that happened in 2003. She enjoyed hearing the thoughts of the development community. She hopes this gets to a point where it isn’t just thrown out because she feels it is something that can continue to elevate the City to the next level. R. Plummer, “You made a comment that a planless, and I mean I take exception to that because we go through committees; we go through hearings on all of our subdivisions and everything. I think there is a lot of planning on everybody’s part. Why would you say it is a planless committee?” Riechmann stated she was asking a rhetorical question. R. Plummer, “I understand but it is not like that.” J. Plummer, “I get what you are saying but this community is the same community that prevented us from doing a lot of the things you now want to see in the same general area. So, is it planless? Of course it’s not but is it perfect? No. But I think this is just bad news for everybody. And this may spur development in other parts of town and this will spur development in places like Troy and Bethalto and Highland.” Riechmann asked if he personally thought there was nothing salvageable from this code. J. Plummer, “I never said that. But I think the code, as is right now, it is a train wreck coming down the tracks and it needs to be stopped.” Riechmann stated the City spent money and time to develop it and asked if the developers could help. R. Plummer, “I’ll tell you what, just because you spent money on a plan and it is a bad plan, you might as well quit spending more.”  17 J. Plummer, “It is a very bad plan and no one questions anyone’s intent here and that might be the case. No one questions anyone’s intent here but it is very academic here and just the terminology and the theories. The granite whatever they were talking about earlier, the granite curbs. I mean this is very unrealistic. It is clearly developed by people that have great ideas in things that will work well but not feasible. And I think that the plan, if you want to do something that is great, why don’t you have some folks shape it that have actually been shaping the community for the last 30 years; the Lantz’s and everybody?” Lantz stated he thought it was offered to them. They just have 2 weeks to review what the board has had 3 meetings to do. Brandmeyer stated this will go to Plan Commission for a public hearing. The Plan Commission could send it back to the Ordinance Committee. Rabe asked where it would be best to have this process, to have the comments from the development community. Schlueter stated it was already advertised so it needs to go forward. She hoped that the development community would have enough time to review the plan and give feedback at or before the meeting in 2 weeks. The Plan Commission could hear the public portion and then say the development community would like to provide some additional input so they will be sending it back to the Ordinance Committee for further conversation. This is a process that could be instigated at that time. Brandmeyer stated the current final draft will be up on the Madison County website. He would also like to meet various developers to get some input. The comments from the developers will be written up and presented to the Plan Commission. Mullane explained that the Plan Commission is just a recommending body. It still goes through City Council. If anyone is not happy with the proposal or the process, they should make some calls to a Council member. Rabe explained this is a 3-party agreement which includes Madison County, Glen Carbon and Edwardsville. All 3 jurisdictions will be involved with the outcome of this. Coffey added there is a broad agreed plan but each jurisdiction their own development requirements such as signs landscaping. C. Section 7 – Definitions There will not be a separate section of definitions. The definitions will refer to the presiding jurisdiction. Brandmeyer wanted to let the Committee know the Madison County hearing will be Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 11:45 AM in the County Board Room. J. Plummer, “I understand that the notification of the Plan Committee has been published already. Has it ever been done that they potentially publish a cancellation of that meeting?” Schlueter stated that was not an option but they have the option for an additional public  18 hearing. Coffey offered to move it to Plan Commission without a recommendation. Pierceall added he would not feel comfortable voting without additional information. MOTION: Rabe. The Ordinance Committee recommend to the Plan Commission that the Plan Commission seek additional public input before voting on the I-55 Corridor Plan. SECONDED: Mullane. VOICE ROLL CALL: All Ayes. REMINDER: PLAN COMMISSION MEETING: Monday, March 16, 2015 at 7:00 p.m. at City Hall, City Council Chambers, 118 Hillsboro Avenue.