Aldermen, Board of

BOARD OF ALDERMEN MEETING WITH COUNCILOR WHEELER The Board of Aldermen met with Councilor Wheeler on Tuesday, April 10, 2012 at 6:45 p.m. in the Aldermanic Chamber. President Brian S. McCarthy presided; Deputy City Clerk Patricia Piecuch recorded. President McCarthy Before I ask the Clerk to take the roll, Alderman Dowd is participating by telephone and under the terms of the state law that allows him to do that, he needs to explain why he can’t attend, if he can hear us, and who he is with, if anyone. Alderman Dowd stated he was unable to attend as he was on a business trip, was alone, and could hear the proceedings. President McCarthy Acknowledged that those present could hear Alderman Dowd as well. The roll call was taken with 13 members of the Board of Aldermen present; Aldermen Chasse and Tabacsko were recorded absent. Alderman Dowd was not in attendance but participated in the meeting via telecommunication. President McCarthy Alderman Tabacsko is unable to attend this evening. Her Honor Mayor Donnalee Lozeau was also in attendance. The purpose of tonight’s pre-meeting was to meet with Councilor Wheeler regarding the rail study decision of a couple of weeks ago. I would like to give Councilor Wheeler an opportunity to explain that vote. I think this board has on numerous occasions expressed its fairly overwhelming support for rail as a necessary part of our economic development so I guess I would like to hear that if we’re not going to have rail what is it that is going to take its place in our transportation network in order to make us successful. Then I will entertain questions from members of the board. Councilor Wheeler I think the main issue with the train is how do we pay for it. It is very easy to be for something if you are not the one that has to pay for it. I think the train project really boils down to where do we get this money not only just for the study because I don’t think you can divorce the study from the $300 million+ project itself based on experiences with the Downeaster and the train in Vermont. I think you have to look at it as a whole picture. The item 77 at the last meeting, the State had to come up with about $400,000 of general fund match for the study, and it just we don’t have the money for that study, it is not feasible going all the way to Concord and including Manchester. We just don’t have the money to go forward with a $300 million project like that. It just doesn’t make sense. I will preface that that I have a high respect that that Board of Aldermen and the Mayor support this project unanimously, but I am, you need to know, getting calls from other people from the City who think I cast the right vote for this project. President McCarthy I guess my first question would be without the study how do we know it is $300 million, how do we know that we can’t afford it? Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 2 April 10, 2012 Councilor Wheeler This would be the fourth study that has included rail through Nashua that would have been done. We have the 2004 study with a $70 million price tag capital cost using just one rail, and then when you add having two parallel rails you are up to $150 million just going to Nashua so it isn’t hard to project that out that you are at a $300 million, and we have been carrying a number in the ten year highway plan in that neighborhood and we have been carrying a number in the ten year highway plan on what this train would cost to subsidize this operation. Not only is it the cost of the study, but where are we going to get the money to subsidize the operation for a train all the way to Concord. We just don’t have that money. Back in 2004 when the environmental study to Nashua was done, it was determined that we could not use highway funds; the Supreme Court determined we couldn’t use highway funds to match the Federal rail funds. I have to caution you as well that regarding Crown Street, the State is talking about using turnpike toll credits as their match to the CMAQ money. We may run into the same problem there not as a park and ride, but if that station is ever turned into a train station we have to pay the money back constitutionally if we use turnpike toll credits. If we don’t use turnpike toll credits for that purchase I’m not sure where the money is coming from for that either. We are going to have to search. President McCarthy If other members of the board have questions I will yield to them. Alderman Sheehan I do have a couple thank you. Thank you for coming tonight. I have some questions because my understanding is the studies previously were based on things that no longer hold true. For example, it was a freight rail versus passenger and freight. Secondly, the gas economics were very different in 2004 than they are in 2012. My business background tells me that it is good business practice to have the most current information in order to do my due diligence and make the best business decision with the best information, not going on a gut feeling or very old information. I’m curious how that became the best business practice to just decide without having the numbers and the figures to say yeah this is a waste of time, it is too expensive versus this is economically feasible because we are the economic engine driving this state and by limiting us it limits what the state can make. I’m curious how that was determined to be a good business practice to go with gut feeling rather than current information and good business practices of doing due diligence. Councilor Wheeler We certainly weren’t going on gut feeling. We have three studies. This study here, the Boston to Montreal included the leg through Nashua. We’ve spent millions of dollars studying already. This isn’t like we were starting from scratch. We have information. Like I said we know what the 2003 costs would have been to go from Lowell to Nashua. We know that when you double the mileage you are going to double those capital costs. We had train sets that were possibly available and now they are not. There are a lot of things that have changed; hard facts that have changed. I have to look at this as where are we going to get the money for a $300 million train tracks; we are going to have to borrow the money from China and my grandchildren and your grandchildren are going to have to pay it back. Not to mention where we’re going to get the state match. Now that highway funds have been excluded those dollars are hard to come by. When you are sitting in my shoes, we can’t use highway funds and we can’t use turnpike toll credits because of the New Hampshire Constitution, then this project is competing with special education, with the developmentally disabled, and it has to compete on all levels for the state match. Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 3 April 10, 2012 Alderman Sheehan Follow up in the vein of good business practice, I know I tried to call you a half a dozen times and got four voicemails and once I was able to leave a message, and I heard from others that calls just aren’t returned. I tried repeatedly to call you and to e-mail you and I’ve never gotten any response back. Is that your standard business practices for serving your constituency? Councilor Wheeler I don’t know about e-mails because if I get an e-mail I respond. If I’m asked for a response you get a response. The Mayor has my cell phone, I have the Mayor’s cell phone, we’ve communicated about this once or twice. We’ve communicated about other Nashua issues; police commissioner, etc. I can give you my cell phone direct. I’m available. You can always get me through the office in Concord. President McCarthy At the risk of being confrontational, when I sent you the e-mail to invite you to join us you never responded to that. It wasn’t until my assistant called you that we were able to schedule the meeting. Councilor Wheeler Well she called me a few days after you sent the e-mail. President McCarthy It was about a week and a half. Alderman Donchess Councilor Wheeler just some basic information; what do you say the operating subsidy would be to run the train from Nashua to Lowell on the existing track, and of the $300 million that you are saying it would require to upgrade the tracks, how much of that would be federal and how much would be state money? Councilor Wheeler When I’m talking about the $300 million I’m talking about going to Concord with the proposal that we had on our desks. Using the existing track without fixing it up is not an option. The last information I had is that a parallel second track would be required the whole distance, not just using the existing tube steel rails, but one would have two rails going north and one would have two rails going south. That having sidings for trains to pass was not an option. They would have to build a whole second rail. Alderman Donchess How do you know that without doing the study? There used to be a commuter rail along the same route… Councilor Wheeler I understand. Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 4 April 10, 2012 Alderman Donchess …and it was run in the 1978-1980 timeframe. The train went from all the way to Concord and stopped in Nashua. Who knows; if we did the study we might decide well it only makes sense to go to Nashua or it only makes sense to go to Merrimack or it only make sense to go to Manchester. The train that was run for the several years in the ‘70s into about 1980 operated on the current tracks, was paid for through a federal subsidy, and without a study how do you know what different possibilities really exist? Councilor Wheeler This would be the fourth study; I will point that out again. We have basic information on costs, on feasibility. This isn’t starting from scratch. Alderman Donchess Alright well what is the operating subsidy then from Lowell to Nashua without the new tracks? Councilor Wheeler I can’t give you the …we have to have new tracks and tracks have to be fixed up. They are not acceptable for passenger rail right now is my understanding. That is the information I have from DOT and others. Alderman Donchess Well how much is the operational subsidy on the line from Lowell to Boston? Councilor Wheeler I don’t know. Offhand I don’t know. Alderman Donchess The $300 million project you are talking about runs all the way to Concord, right? Councilor Wheeler Correct. Alderman Donchess How much would that cost if it only went to Nashua? Councilor Wheeler I don’t have that, but that is not the item we voted on; we voted on the whole thing. We do have… Alderman Donchess Maybe the study would establish that. Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 5 April 10, 2012 Councilor Wheeler We have numbers from the environmental study. Alderman Donchess So you don’t know now what you think it would cost to run the track from Lowell to Nashua. Is that correct? Councilor Wheeler I don’t have exact numbers, but we have rough numbers from 2003. Alderman Donchess What are the rough numbers? What would it cost to run… Councilor Wheeler I don’t know. Alderman Donchess …the track from Lowell to Nashua? Councilor Wheeler I don’t have the rough numbers. I might have them right here if you want to give me a minute. Alderman Donchess And I guess I ask how can you vote against this without knowing something as basic as that question? Councilor Wheeler It looks like the subsidies from Lowell to Nashua in 2003, yearly subsidy would be about $10 million to run the train. Alderman Donchess And how many riders are projected to… Councilor Wheeler We’re talking in the neighborhood of just under 1,000 trips, which would be about 500 riders. Alderman Donchess And you are saying that subsidy is only to Nashua not to Concord? Councilor Wheeler Correct. Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 6 April 10, 2012 Alderman Donchess And how much would it cost to improve the tracks from Lowell to Nashua? Councilor Wheeler We had, at the time in 2003, the capital costs to be at $70 million before the decision at the time was made to have to have two sets of tracks, parallel tracks. That would have put the cost at about $150 million. Alderman Donchess And at the $70 million figure, what is the state’s share of the $70 million? Councilor Wheeler Generally in this project it is 20%. Alderman Donchess So $14 million for the state, right? Councilor Wheeler You keep going back to a single track, and I don’t think you can do that, but okay. It is around $28 million. Alderman Donchess Why do you need two tracks? Councilor Wheeler At the time it was something the MBTA said we had to have, double tracks. They weren’t going to run the train on a single track, they were saying that having sidings where one train, a northbound can pass the southbound, pull over for a minute, wasn’t safe, and they wouldn’t do it. President McCarthy That may have been 20 years ago in technology, which I think is another reason why… Councilor Wheeler We’re talking 2003/2004. President McCarthy That’s still 10 years ago. The state of the art has advanced substantially in controls. If you look around the country in places that have always had double tracks now have singles because they don’t need to maintain the second track with adequate controls. Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 7 April 10, 2012 Alderman Donchess And the state’s share for the subsidy was how much? Excuse me the state’s share for the study was how much? Councilor Wheeler This study that we had as a council item, approximately $400,000, general funds. Alderman Donchess And it was designated where that money was going to come from right? Councilor Wheeler From the general fund, which means, for the layman that money is competing with all general fund expenditures; health & human services, education, etc., etc. Alderman Donchess And why do you think the councilors from the north country and from Concord could see the wisdom of doing this and you, representing this district, could not? Councilor Wheeler The Councilor from Concord voted against it. Alderman Donchess Well who were the 2 who voted for it? Councilor Wheeler The Councilor from Manchester voted for it, but that doesn’t mean he believed that it was going to come out financially feasible. Alderman Donchess He just thought it would be worth checking it out to see what… Councilor Wheeler He thought it would be worth a look … Alderman Donchess …we might learn from it? Councilor Wheeler …that’s correct. Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 8 April 10, 2012 Alderman Donchess Right? Councilor Wheeler That’s correct. Alderman Donchess I don’t have any other questions right now. Alderman Melizzi-Golja Thank you Councilor Wheeler, thank you for joining us this evening. I guess I’m kind of caught in the fact that this most recent study that seems to be available is from 2003. I know certainly in the past 7 or 8 years as I look at traffic heading from Manchester south and continuing over the line, it has gotten considerably heavier, and you must certainly notice it as you head north some mornings; what the volume of traffic is like at 7:00 a.m., 7:30 a.m., 8:00 a.m. I guess it leads me just to my comment that I really can’t see how there can be a belief that this decision was made with the best available information because you quoted 500 riders from Lowell to Nashua, and again as I look at what is happening here in the southern part of the state and actually from Concord now, I question the ability of that number to reflect what is really happening. And certainly in talking to businesses here in not only Nashua but in the southern tier, there is conversation about the desire to have rail both for freight as well as for commuter so people in freight are able to move in and out of this area easily. And just one final comment; last year I heard a realtor speak to real estate sales here versus like the Booth Bay Harbor area up in Maine and how then 3 years ago, now 4 years ago, his office in Amherst and a similar office in Booth Bay Harbor had the same volume of business and when rail was projected as coming through Maine they saw a huge increase and they were now at 3 times the volume of business as the office here in Amherst. I just think when you look at the history of rail in the state, freight rail, and you look at the development that is here, you look at trucks and cars on the road and the price of gas, I just have to really question the wisdom when you throw in especially the price of gas, not at least allowing the study to go forward. If the study went forward and proved that it was totally not feasible I think a number of us would listen to that and say okay I guess we really were like looking with rose colored glasses and though this was the right thing to do. I’m an educator and one of the things I constantly tell children is don’t jump to decision, search out the facts, and keep an open mind. I think as adults especially people in government, we need to search for that information. We don’t always make the decisions everyone thinks we should make, but we at least have to try to collect the best information possible and then we integrate it and make the decisions. I understand your feelings and I guess this is just an opportunity for me to reflect on my thoughts about the decision that the whole Council made because it is certainly not your vote alone that resulted in this. Thank you. Councilor Wheeler I appreciate your thoughts. I would respond to this that the state has a serious commitment to Nashua using buses. Buses from Nashua to Logon and the station are now running in the black or very close to breaking even year round and they are running several of the warmer months in the black now. Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 9 April 10, 2012 President McCarthy Weren’t they just granted $600,000 in additional monies that they can tap into from the state? Councilor Wheeler I’m not sure exactly what monies are going to what line; they have the Nashua, the 93 one, if this line is making money, and when we invested in the coaches as a capital cost. By the way I brought these… President McCarthy Kind of like buying a train set right/ Councilor Wheeler Kind of. But we’re running 5 solid months in the black with almost, the winter months the ridership seems to drop off, and by the way those 500 people projected to be on the train are on the bus. We’re running approximately 500 people if you average it a day… President McCarthy I think if you go and look at the current data you will find that people who have gone to the Billerica and the Lowell stations for the MBTA count more than 500 New Hampshire plates in the parking lot on an average day so those people are not going down there to take the bus. Councilor Wheeler But they are not necessarily coming from Nashua either. They could be coming from Plaistow or an area like that. President McCarthy And wouldn’t they rater… Councilor Wheeler But you can’t say that there are 500 an even swap. I’m not saying there is no 500 more riders there. There are more people here now than there were in 2003. President McCarthy You touched on something interest there, which is the airport. I had a lengthy conversation with Mark Brewer, the Director of Manchester International Airport, today and he told me a couple of interesting things. He said he has gone to Europe a couple of times to talk with carriers about international operations and the first question they ask him before how many people fly in and out of the airport and what would it cost us to fly there is, is the airport serviced by rail, and that is the thing they ask about before going anywhere with international flights. The second thing he told me is his study, current data, suggests that for every 1 international flight in and out of Manchester International Airport on a daily basis, it would generate on an annual basis $100 million in revenue to the local business community. I guess when we look at stuff you said it is easy to be in favor of things until you look at what it is going to cost us. I would counter with it is easy to be against things until you look at what is the benefit of having them. So Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 10 April 10, 2012 yeah even if the $300 million figure, which I’m not sure is accurate without the study, is correct, and when you ask how are we going to pay for it, maybe in the 20 years we would have to pay for it out of the $2 billion in additional revenues we would have based on having service in and out of Manchester International Airport. Then I look at the fact that apparently Boston Express carries 50,000 people a year from New Hampshire to Logon Airport. It operates to the detriment of Manchester Airport and in a state subsidy. How does that make good transportation policy? Councilor Wheeler Well I don’t know if it is 50,000. I think we were looking at… President McCarthy That number comes from Mr. Jalbert. Councilor Wheeler So does this, but anyways…it doesn’t make sense. We need to do what we can to encourage people to fly Manchester. But I think if they wanted to fly Manchester they would, if they live in Nashua. President McCarthy What transit gets you to… Councilor Wheeler You can get them there in 15 minutes. President McCarthy …Manchester Airport? Councilor Wheeler What? President McCarthy What transit gets you to Manchester Airport from Nashua? Councilor Wheeler There is nothing right now. President McCarthy I can get a bus that is subsidized by the State of New Hampshire to take me to Logon International Airport. I can’t take a public transit of any kind to go 10 miles north to the Manchester Airport. Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 11 April 10, 2012 Councilor Wheeler Understood, and that is something we need to look at. Alderman Deane I’m very familiar with the Manchester airport. As a frequent purchaser of airline tickets for my daughter-in-law and my grandbaby, and my Son on occasions, it costs between $100 and $150 more to fly into Manchester. That is why we fly into Logon. Even when you figure the gas and the tolls times 3 people it is not worth flying into Manchester so Mr. Jalbert maybe they should look into that along with the fact that there are very few non- stop flights from the west coast into Manchester, everything lays over in Chicago or you can take a direct flight into Logon. I saw the Boston Express there Saturday dropping folks off down at the airport. I haven’t really looked into it too much, I’ve just seen a lot of headlines; the MBTA is looking for a $51 million subsidy because they have operating issues. They are cutting services, raising fairs. There are some problems. And when you look at some of the polling that was done inside the 128 belt people are in favor of giving them whatever they need to operate and increasing the rates, but outside of that area they are not. I think a lot of things have changed. Should we have looked at another study; I think we probably should. I’m not a big supporter of all of these studies; most of them end up on a shelf. This building is filled with them. Lots of times things don’t get enacted, but I think it might do everybody a little justice to perhaps take a look back and see what we can do to have the study done. I agree with my colleague from Ward 8, it will answer a lot of questions about the feasibility of it. I don’t know if you have the opportunity to revisit it, but I would ask that if that opportunity does arise perhaps we should move forward. I know money is an issue. We met with a State Representative last night. You’ve got everybody scratching and clawing for state dollars for everything that they are supportive of and there is only so much money to go around. Thank you. President McCarthy I guess I would make a couple of points here; one is one of the reasons that it is more expensive to fly into Manchester is the lack of flights in and out of the airport means the cost is amortized over fewer passengers. The actual landing fees at Manchester, the cost to get in and out, is less than half of what it is at Logon. So I’m not sure why that doesn’t translate into lower ticket costs. I do believe that with more passenger availability it would. With regard to the T, despite all of the problems they are having, one of the other things Mr. Berwer told me is that the T is increasing the number of trips per day, the number of trains per day from Boston to T.F. Green airport in Providence from 5 to 20. The T sees it as important to get customers out of Boston to other airports so they are creating 20 trips a day to an airport that is substantially further from Boston as far as I know than Manchester is. I think these are things we would see in the study is that there is a substantial opportunity for southern New Hampshire to become a more thriving part of the Boston region, which let’s face it we are part of whether we like it or not, than we are today. Alderman Sheehan Thank you. I guess to offer a little support, the delegation that was here from Maverdine, from Scotland a couple of weeks ago, I spent a few hours with, and they were telling me about one of their carriers that did want to come to Manchester, but because of the lack of rail connectivity they didn’t. I also thought it was interesting that they thought it interesting enough to travel over here to study rail in New Hampshire over in Scotland because they are following it because it has that much of an importance. Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 12 April 10, 2012 I have two questions; I’m wondering where the 500 ridership number is coming from in 2003; what was taken into account and whether or not the cost of gas and the impact that has on people wanting to drive their own car or to ride the train, if that was a factor, and if there is something that can be revisited such as we have reconsideration on our floor to take something up that we would like to change a no vote. Is there any alternate path where this could be re-visted? I would like to know what is the ridership based on and what are the economic factor and then revisiting. Councilor Wheeler I will take the last one first; in Concord I don’t see a will on the Council to revisit this. The monies simply aren’t there to revisit this. What I do see as a possible option, and I don’t really see the will on the Council to shorten the study. I mean one possibility is to shorten the study and have the train stop at Manchester. The Commissioner says that study would probably be about $2.7 million with the same $400,000 state match, and the only money that he has available for that match is turnpike toll credits, which I’m sure will be determined to be unconstitutional just like using the highway fund was, to use that money on trains. Basically the Commissioner is saying if we can’t do that we don’t have the money for the study to Manchester as well. There is the possibility of asking the feds whether they would accept an upgraded study for the rail just going to Nashua, and I don’t know exactly how the feds would feel about just stopping that study at Nashua to keep the costs down, but that is one possibility. Alderman Sheehan And the ridership? Councilor Wheeler The ridership… Alderman Sheehan Numbers of 500 were they based on gas prices in 2003 and what other factors? I know our road has a lot more riders than it did in 2003. Councilor Wheeler Well I can tell you that regarding ridership if you want to compare it to the bus, the bus ridership is up about 2.3% so far this year with the higher gas prices. Not insignificant but not huge. Alderman Sheehan But isn’t the bus usually full? I’ve tried to get on the bus and it is full so I don’t take the bus I keep driving. Is the price of gas factored into the ridership? Councilor Wheeler Not in 2003. The 2003 price would be factored into that, yes you are right. Alderman Melizzi-Golja I have another question I just am curious about. We had a presentation upstairs in the City Hall Auditorium at least a month ago about rail. I believe it was prior to your vote, shortly, a few days prior to your vote in the Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 13 April 10, 2012 Council. At that time there was some conversation around money that had been collected, donated, contributed by private businesses to support this proposed study. In my mind I’ve lost how much money that was. I though it was like $120,000, $130,000, I know it wasn’t over $150,000. I was just wondering what kind of response you’ve had from the businesses who contributed that money, and I guess in our desire to look at pursuing rail, where is that money now and is that money available if a group wanted to undertake a study? Councilor Wheeler I will tell you the information I have and the Mayor can correct me if I’m wrong. My understanding from the Commissioner was that money would be used to write the contract to put the construction out to bid. My item that I have in front of me, Item 77, says nothing about private contributions, it says general funds. So if there is something that I don’t know then you can update me, but that is the information I have. Alderman Melizzi-Golja Okay because my understanding from that earlier meeting was that that money had been contributed to support a study. I don’t know anyone else’s memory on that. But I guess as a follow-up, have you heard…that is still private money that the state now has and so if the study doesn’t go forward obviously that money can’t be used to write a contract so where is that money and what is going to be done and have you heard from the businesses who contributed that money because obviously they felt rail was important. Councilor Wheeler I think that was about 4 questions. Alderman Melizzi-Golja Yeah, my questions, sorry. Councilor Wheeler I will try to remember them all. The information I have from the Commissioner was that the Rail Transit Authority was involved in trying to raise that money so I don’t know if the money is sitting at the Rail Transit Authority. I do know that it wasn’t part of this item. It is not in there. It was strictly general funds for the match. I forgot the other parts of your question. Alderman Melizzi-Golja Have you heard from any of those businesses that contributed? Councilor Wheeler Not by name no. Alderman Melizzi-Golja Okay. Councilor Wheeler In other words, maybe someone called me, but I didn’t know if they were a contributor… Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 14 April 10, 2012 Alderman Melizzi-Golja They didn’t identify themselves. Councilor Wheeler As a contributor, no. Alderman Melizzi-Golja Thank you. Alderman Pressly Thank you. Thank you for being here tonight. I think you can tell that this governing body feels very very strongly… Councilor Wheeler Yeah, I wore my black suit because I figured it would match the tar pot and the white stripes probably match the feathers. Alderman Pressly And I know that you have a very strong position on your side of the argument, and I think you have held that for many years. What would it take, what type of new information could we bring to you, what would you expect us to do to help you to change your mind or what new information, what we as a governing body can do other than what we already have done to let you know this really is important to us and to get you to support our position? Councilor Wheeler You could pay the match. Alderman Pressly The $400,000? Councilor Wheeler Yeah, and then the 20%. Alderman Pressly What if we contributed to that? Councilor Wheeler I don’t know. I mean that’s…anything is open for discussion, absolutely. Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 15 April 10, 2012 Alderman Pressly Well then help us; tell us what other types of things…we really do feel very strongly about it. Councilor Wheeler I’m going back to the same thing I opened with; it is a matter of money… Alderman Pressly The cost. Councilor Wheeler …and where do we get it. If it is a $300 million that is a $60 million match. We have to come up with $60 million, can’t use highway funds, can’t use turnpike funds, where do we get $60 million? Alderman Pressly Further question; could we just take a look at the study, what would you expect us to do just to take this next step to get the study so that we all know the true… Councilor Wheeler One of the options that was on the table, the Mayor was going to explore the idea of if Nashua came up with the $400,000 whether the study could go forward with the federal funds. Alderman Pressly May I continue please? So what you are saying is if the City of Nashua were to come up with $400,000 you would be able to support getting this study? Councilor Wheeler I think if Nashua came up with the $400,000 it would probably go through, but I have to caution you that the Legislature is very cool to trains, both the Massachusetts Legislature and the New Hampshire Legislature would have to pass legislation to make this happen. The New Hampshire Legislature just passed legislation to dissolve the Railroad Authority. I just … Alderman Pressly Further question. I think I’m well aware of what you were just saying; however we feel that the study is what we need to do today… Councilor Wheeler Mhmm. Alderman Pressly …and so just keeping the discussion on that item… Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 16 April 10, 2012 Councilor Wheeler I can’t keep the discussion just on that item because if you are going to do the study you are going to do the train. You have to presume if we’re going to dump $4 million on the study that you are going to be doing a $300 million train… President McCarthy I guess I don’t presume that… Alderman Pressly I don’t presume it either. President McCarthy …if the $4 million study says you are going to have to spend $50 million a year to subsidize the train… Councilor Wheeler You should a have a pretty good idea if you are going to do the train if you are even going to spend $4 million. President McCarthy I don’t see how we can make that decision without the data… Alderman Pressly Without the data… President McCarthy …that comes from the study. Councilor Wheeler And I’m saying this is the fourth study. You have basic data already. It needs to be updated in time. But you have the basic data. We’ve already paid for it three times. This would be a fourth study…significantly change the scope of the project. President McCarthy What was the cost of the second study relative to the first? Councilor Wheeler I don’t have those numbers in front of me. President McCarthy Because it occurs to me that the $3 million study may just be what the cost of updating the data is… Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 17 April 10, 2012 Councilor Wheeler No I think… President McCarthy …It is a different study because… Councilor Wheeler This item is broader; it is more intermodal than the other two studies. There is definitely more in the study. That is one reason it cost more. President McCarthy Isn’t that suggestive that it might yield different results? That it is not just using the base data that we already have? Councilor Wheeler It’s not going to result in cheaper construction costs and subsidy costs. Alderman Pressly Further question… President McCarthy But it may in fact result in more use and more revenue in the end because it is an intermodal solution. I guess I just don’t…I keep going back to I don’t understand how we can make a decision without having the data. Any time in the city we go to do things like renovate schools, the first thing we do is the architectural study and get a cost for what it is going to cost us. Do we intend to go forward with them, yes, but sometimes we make the decision that we won’t do exactly what we planned at the end of the study because we find out information about the costs and the benefits that surprised us. But we always do the study so that we understand it. Councilor Wheeler I don’t know if you always do four studies though. President McCarthy You just said we don’t have a study that covers the proposal that is on the table… Councilor Wheeler I didn’t say it didn’t cover it, I said it is a little broader… Alderman Pressly May I continue please? Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 18 April 10, 2012 Councilor Wheeler …basics are the same. President McCarthy Alderman Pressly, I’m sorry I thought you had finished. Alderman Pressly No. Just another question; if you look at the Downeaster and how successful that was, it didn’t happen overnight. They did it in stages. Each step of the way proved how successful it was and motivated people to go further. I personally feel that if we could get that study and just get the train to Nashua that the whole state would see the benefit… Councilor Wheeler If we are as successful as the Downeaster we will be left with a 50% subsidy, the State of New Hampshire. Where do you want me to get that money? Alderman Pressly Well I think what I would like to focus on is to get this study. If I understood you correctly, if the City of Nashua were to work very hard, maybe sacrifice another project, but to come up with $400,000, that you would then go to Concord and do your very best to get this study? Councilor Wheeler I’m saying I am open to that idea yes. But I gave you the cautions that I don’t know if you will get the capital money if you go ahead and do that. President McCarthy Where does the subsidy come from for the Downeaster? Councilor Wheeler Maine. President McCarthy So we are not paying it. Councilor Wheeler No we are not even though it goes through New Hampshire. Alderman Pressly It doesn’t come out of their general fund, they have subsidized money. They have not paid any of their state money for that train. Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 19 April 10, 2012 Alderman Melizzi-Golja Thank you. I guess just a comment to follow up on Alderman Pressly’s question about the subsidy; I understand that right now you have a number in terms of what the State would have to subsidize to support rail, but for me the missing part of that equation is what kind of revenues would the State generate that would offset that cost if we had rail? If we had rail to the airport and there were more hotels and more restaurants and people were coming here and spending more time in the region, then we would have meals and room taxes. If people are renting cars there would be the taxes from car rental. If we had freight rail and there were businesses located here…I think that we have to consider the other side of that equation, and certainly that is a lot of money, but I don’t think it is fair to go into it and not say what would be generated in terms of revenue that would offset some of that . Councilor Wheeler I appreciate your thoughts, I’m sure that has some factors, but I can tell you that for instance Southwest going to Logan Airport we lost a third of our employments because now Southwest is flying out of Boston and they do it much cheaper than out of Manchester. There is a lot of other bigger factors in play that ridership is way down at the airport. If we could get Jet Blue to commit to some substantial runs in Manchester then maybe we would get that business back. Alderman Melizzi-Golja I understand that and I don’t know which airports you fly in and out of, but the airports I fly in and out of have either train and or some sort of metro system that connect them to a larger hub or the region or the downtown area. I’m thrilled when I don’t have to rent a car and pay for parking in a downtown area and all of those sorts of things. My most recent trip to Chicago cost me less than $10 in a round trip train ticket from midway to downtown Chicago versus renting a car for $40 for the weekend and paying $50 a day at three days for parking. I think again that all plays into a transportation system and it is a system, and looking at maybe where is our weakest link and what do we think we can do to strengthen that system. As I listen to some of us around the table here we certainly think rail has a place in that and then certainly the other part of it is if there were freight what would that do for the business environment and jobs in the state. Alderman Donchess Yes Mr. Chair, I’m skeptical about some of the things that Councilor Wheeler, with all dues respect, is telling us. First of all and why. Well it was a divided vote. There were two councilors, one Ray Burton who has been there for a decade and the other from Manchester who must have decided that there was the money and must have decided that it was worth proceeding, and it is not like this was some kind of partisan divide, I mean those are both conservative republicans, and it is very disappointing; if there were a unanimous vote or something and everybody is saying there is no way we still would be upset, but what is most frustrating is you go up there, this is the largest city in your district, it is almost 50% of the population in your district, and if you consider the suburbs here it is the vast proportion of your district, and you go up there and you vote against Ray Burton who voted to help us and you voted against the Councilor from Manchester who voted to help us, and you cast the deciding vote to make sure that this does not proceed. It is frustrating and disappointing and the information you are presenting I’m skeptical that the State does not have $400,000. How much did the state save on snowplowing, $10 million? Councilor Wheeler Can’t use that money, it is highway funds. Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 20 April 10, 2012 Alderman Donchess Okay, but I’m just giving an example. I think if we had someone who knows the state budget, it is like saying the City of Nashua couldn’t come up with $20,000 in a crunch. The budget up there is much bigger. I’m skeptical that you couldn’t come up with $400,000. I know Ray Burton and I’ve known him for a long time. I don’t think he is an irresponsible vote, I think for some ideological reason you turned your back on the interest of your constituents and I’m upset and disappointed that you voted the deciding vote against the interest of what we consider to be our community. Councilor Wheeler I appreciate that Alderman, but I will say that this is a very polarized issue in this whole district. I’m getting as many that-a-boy calls as I am people saying why did you do that. I think I represent this district as well and I think I have a handle on the people. Alderman Sheehan I would just like to stress that I think that the economic benefit needs to be measured in real estate and business impact and in increased tax revenue by having businesses locate here. I think that is an important piece that we’re missing from the study. I am rather surprised to hear that you are getting a lot of at-at-boys, and only because in the newspaper you said that it was members of the Nashua Chamber of Commerce who took you aside and told you that they were the quiet dissenters that were afraid to speak up so something has changed in the last two weeks since you were interviewed in the newspaper, and I’m just am baffled. I would like to move forward with helping you find some funding. I think it is important, but I think the most important thing that we need to look at is what is the economic benefit to the state; real estate values increase, every time we all get extended somewhere there are businesses that will come, there is potential airport expansion which is our biggest money generator in the state, there is just so much to look at and I would like to see us take a good look at that and if that means that we have to help participate with some funding I’m not against that. Thank you. Alderman Vitale I’m curious as to where you find rail in the economic viability of New Hampshire in the future going forward. Where do you see rail? Councilor Wheeler I think that rail will have its day and it will become affordable as the population grows. We have left rail corridors in the I93 widening project, we’re looking to the future to put rail in at some point in time when we can get enough ridership to make it pay for itself better than it does, to make it pay for itself better than the Downeaster does. The Downeaster might be the best example we got, and if ours turns out like that we still don’t have the $10 million subsidy to run it. Alderman Vitale So if I hear you correctly you are saying you do see it in New Hampshire’s future. If you don’t keep your information up to date and current how far into the future do you see that happening? Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 21 April 10, 2012 Councilor Wheeler I don’t know when that day is. I’m not against keeping your information up to date, but that is not what this vote was. This vote was a major expansion of this project. It wasn’t just keeping Nashua’s information up to date, it wasn’t just keeping 2 out of the 3 prior studies up to date. That is not what it was. President McCarthy My understanding is that we actually can’t use the federal money to keep the prior studies up to date, and the FRA money can only be used if we go as far as Concord. The FTA money cannot be used for a refresh of the data from what I understand, which is it can’t be used to redo the study that was done 10 or 15 years ago it can only be used for an expanded study… Councilor Wheeler The last information I had Chairman was that that had not been determined yet. That door was still open at least a crack, but we have not got a closed door on that. That is the last information I have from the Commissioner. Alderman Pressly Thank you. Can you help us out as to where the process is today? I feel personally we are not going to get anywhere unless we get that study done, and I think the study would prove a lot of the comments around the horseshoe here. The vote before the Council was that the final step? If that were to have passed would it have been a done deal and the study would have progressed or did it require any other action by the House or the Senate? Councilor Wheeler That was the actual contract to do the work… Alderman Pressly To do the work. Councilor Wheeler …that’s what the vote was yes. Alderman Pressly So if we were to work with you and to try to find the money somewhere to pay the way you could take that back and if the other two who supported this stayed their position you could hopefully convince them to try this again, and that would take the study forward. Is that not true? Councilor Wheeler With the following cautions, the same cautions that I have, if the City is going to put up the $400,000 match, if that is a possibility, you need to do it with the understanding that the Legislature may not fund the project. Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 22 April 10, 2012 Alderman Pressly When you say Legislature you just said that the final… Councilor Wheeler Not the study, the final project. Alderman Pressly Oh absolutely. I think we’ve all known that, we’ve all know that, that this is strictly a study to find out the pros and the cons of doing anything regarding rail. But without this study we go nowhere. If we were to do this, our understanding is that the thing before you is strictly the study; it has nothing to do with implementing anything. The study might suggest that we don’t do nothing. Councilor Wheeler It is a contract for the study. Alderman Pressly For the study. So do we have a commitment from you… Councilor Wheeler Boston to Concord. Alderman Pressly Do we have a commitment from you tonight that if we can find $400,000 or close to that that you would go to bat for us and if you were to do this and to be the swing vote that we could proceed with the study? Councilor Wheeler I will certainly entertain that thought. I’m not giving you 100%, but that is definitely a possibility as well as something smaller. Alderman Pressly Could you explain that? Smaller scale of the study? Councilor Wheeler Yeah. Alderman Pressly Could you be more specific? Councilor Wheeler Nashua updating the study that we have already done to get 2012 information. Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 23 April 10, 2012 Alderman Pressly So how much would that take from our budget to get you interested in doing it? Councilor Wheeler I don’t think we have numbers on that yet. We ran some numbers on how much it would cost to go to Manchester with a study so take it from approximately $4 million down to $2.7 million if you went to Manchester. So I imagine you are in the… Alderman Pressly But I’m talking about the study. Councilor Wheeler So am I. This contract was almost $4 million in round numbers. Going to Manchester would be a little under $3 million, going to Nashua I’m not sure, maybe $2 million. Alderman Pressly So what would be the match that you would want… Councilor Wheeler Twenty percent of the cost of the study. Alderman Pressly For the study. Councilor Wheeler Yeah. President McCarthy Do I understand that the $400,000 for the match from the general fund must have been in the budget somewhere? Councilor Wheeler Probably. If the contract is here it was in the budget somewhere. President McCarthy So the 400+ member policy making body of the State of New Hampshire decided that it was in our best interest to spend $400,000 as the match for that and 3 members of the Governor’s Council decided that the 400 members of the Legislature were wrong? Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 24 April 10, 2012 Councilor Wheeler With a caveat that they don’t know what the contract is and the scope of the contract. President McCarthy I’m pretty sure from the discussions I had with them at the hearings last year about the Rail Authority they know everything about what that contract is. Councilor Wheeler Well maybe, maybe not. Mayor Lozeau Thank you. Councilor you probably don’t know this, but in these meetings I’m a guest of the board, which is one of the reasons that you are watching me bite my tongue and trying to be able to participate with the respect to the body that this is their meeting. I just wanted to mention three items; 1) as you know in order for that contract to have been in front of you the match money has been identified, and I was wondering if that was maybe something that you did not realize, and would you change your mind if you knew that that money was identified for that study to go forward. Councilor Wheeler You mean the general funds? Mayor Lozeau Yes. Councilor Wheeler No. Mayor Lozeau The second question is the next, I was going to say next week, I think that is April 18th, April 18th I believe on your agenda is the park and ride municipal agreement that we have that is coming before this body as well relative to the park and rides in Nashua for $6.5 million of which, as you mention, the match fund has also been found. Seeing you are here tonight I just wanted to ask is that something you are going to support next week. Councilor Wheeler Yes. I’m going to support the park and ride item, but I’m going to give you this caution based on reading the newspaper story; if that park and ride turns into a train station you probably will have to pay the match back. You cannot use turnpike toll credits on a train station. Mayor Lozeau But you can use them for a park and ride if it is also part…if a train station has a park and ride there you can also use highway funds for it. Board of Aldermen Mtg with Councilor Wheeler 25 April 10, 2012 Councilor Wheeler I’m sure that you can use highway funds for the parking, if buses pull in there and the buses are going to use the highway, I’m sure that is fine… Mayor Lozeau Okay. Councilor Wheeler …and I intend to support that item. But I’m just giving you the caution that if you turn a building that was purchased with highway toll credits into a train station you probably will have to pay the money back. The State match will have to be paid back. Mayor Lozeau And then my final point, thank you Mr. President, is some of the operating funds for many other train stations located in many areas including the one in Plaistow, the funds that are funding that are CMAQ dollars, the Congestion Mitigation Air Quality funds. Those can still be used here to offset our operating costs. One of the things that Plaistow has done and other communities have done particularly in Maine is where it is done most often is that community’s share of CMAQ dollars go directly to the operational costs of running the system. I just wanted to make sure that you were aware of that, and that is something that you would support unlike the highway dollars. Councilor Wheeler It is a good use of CMAQ funds, but I mean in the pot of CMAQ funds that we get about $8 million a year from the feds and we match that with $2 million, those CMAQ funds are spread out throughout the whole state with other CMAQ projects other than rail so how deeply the hand can go into that CMAQ pot without jeopardizing all of your other CMAQ projects throughout the state and all of the other communities would have to be balanced. Mayor Lozeau Thank you. Thank you Mr. President. President McCarthy Are there any other comments or questions? Thank you Councilor Wheeler. Councilor Wheeler Thank you for having me, and I will make sure you all get my cell phone number. The meeting concluded at 7:45 p.m.