Personnel/Administrative Affairs Committee

PERSONNEL/ADMINISTRATIVE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE JANUARY 15, 2013 A meeting of the Personnel/Administrative Affairs Committee was held on January 15, 2013, at 7:00 p.m. in the Aldermanic Chamber. Chairman Paul M. Chasse, Jr. presided. Members of the Committee present: Alderman Arthur T. Craffey, Jr., Vice Chair Alderman June M. Caron Alderman Kathy Vitale Alderman Diane Sheehan Also in Attendance: Alderman Richard Dowd Alderman-at-Large Barbara Pressly Stephen M. Bennett, Deputy Corporation Counsel Detective Hagen, Nashua Police Department PUBLIC COMMENT - None INTERVIEWS – None COMMUNICATIONS - None APPLICATION TO LICENSE HAWKER'S, PEDDLER'S, ITINERANT VENDOR'S LICENSE - None APPOINTMENTS BY THE MAYOR – None UNFINISHED BUSINESS – None NEW BUSINESS – RESOLUTIONS R-13-90 Endorser: Alderman Richard A. Dowd ORDER TO FILL TO GRADE THE UNPROTECTED BASEMENT LOCATED AT 1 FERRY ROAD, NASHUA, NEW HAMPSHIRE MOTION BY ALDERMAN CARON TO RECOMMEND FINAL PASSAGE ON THE QUESTION Chairman Chasse At this time, I'd like to call Detective Andrew Hagen up along with Attorney Bennett. Alderman Dowd This piece of parcel is in my ward. As you can see by the picture I showed earlier, the fence is down a substantial portion of it. The foundation is wide open and I believe there have been complaints about the possibility of youngsters falling in there and damaging themselves. It's gone back a number of years. There was another fence originally around it and it fell down. This fence is obviously in disrepair. I think there are other portions of it that are quick to fall down in the near future. I think we need to take action. Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 2 Chairman Chasse I have a couple of questions. Attorney Bennett we have exhausted everything with this individual who owns the property. We've tried to cover every base, tried to get in contact with them. Attorney Bennett As Alderman Dowd just stated, this isn't the first time we've gone around with this owner. He did have a fence up before. I think it was a plastic fence. That came down. They filed a Notice of Violation as recently as last May. That's when he put up this fence which fell down as of September of this year. He has not responded to a number of phone calls, e-mails, letters. The Code Department came to me after filing a violation and getting no response. Late last month I sent him a letter giving him final warning that we would be going before the Board of Aldermen seeking an Order to have the basement filled if he didn't reply. He has not contacted my office or Code Enforcement. There's been no work done on the property. I know you were over there recently. I went over this morning and Code Enforcement Officer Metcalf went over later this afternoon. There's no sign of anything being done. The rest of the fence will come down. It's not even secured at the bottom in a lot of places. Chairman Chasse So if this goes up to the full Board of Aldermen and gets approval, does he get another warning or he has 10 days to comply with it. Attorney Bennett I think its 15 days and its 15 days from the date he is served with the Orders. So we will secure service down in Massachusetts. So we'll have to have someone serve him down there. Upon service, he gets 15 days. If it doesn't happen, then the City can go in and take care of it. I did speak with Public Works. I think the cost will be around $13,000 for the hours that we've put into it plus the fill. It won't require overtime. I won't require us going out and getting fill. We do have it but that would be the value of the time and fill that we would use. A lien in that amount would be put against the property. That's how we would be reimbursed. Chairman Chasse I went to the property and it's a very nice piece of property. To this day I don't understand how come somebody in the construction field hasn't gone there and looked to put a purchase price on it, buy the thing. The foundation is there. They can just go start putting a house right on it. Evidently, it's not happening. Detective Hagen there is no more - anything going on with the Nashua Police Department with this piece of property? There's no more investigation of any type? Detective Hagen Negative. No there's not. Chairman Chasse I hate to bury and then have it say you have to dig it back up. Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 3 Detective Hagen No. Alderman Vitale Are they current on their taxes on this property? Attorney Bennett They are. Alderman Vitale So they evidently have at least an interest in the property if they're currently paying their taxes. It's beyond me why they aren't taking care of the problem either. Attorney Bennett I did check on the taxes and I'll tell you this. The payment is made through a bank. So I'm not sure who's actually making the payment. As far as the City is concerned, the taxes are up to date. Alderman Vitale Okay. Alderman Sheehan I can't get to pending Resolutions and Ordinances for some reason on the website. Are we requiring them to remove the fencing and if we are the ones who end up doing the work will we be removing it because it has been a billboard shall we say for people with spray paint over the last few years. Attorney Bennett The reason it's secured is - the fence is obvious because it's wide open. I think probably what would happen is we'd have to take down part of it probably to get the trucks in there anyway to fill all sections of it. Parts would come down. What we would do is pull it down and stack it and give him time to come. It's his fencing. We just take it down probably and stack it. Alderman Sheehan All of it or just the access point? Attorney Bennett Frankly, I hadn't given that a lot of thought. I don't know how Public Works will approach it. We're not going to leave the property any more of an eye sore than it maybe already to the neighbors. Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 4 Alderman Sheehan The neighbors have complained a lot at crime watch about the eye sore that the fence is with the graffiti. That's why I'm wondering if that wasn't going to be part of it. I don't care if we neatly stack it but the neighbors are tired of seeing a broken down fence with stuff tagged all over it. Attorney Bennett Well the authority of the Statute of RSA 155:b-13 gives us the authority to secure it if the owner doesn't. Not necessarily to clean up the property. Alderman Sheehan Okay. Thank you. Alderman Craffey Thank you Mr. Chairman. The lien process. You said a lien against the property. Do we have to wait for the property to be sold before we recover our money or can we put a tax lien against it? How is that going to work? I don't want to spend 30 years waiting to get our $13,000 back. Attorney Bennett Well it is a lien that's going to be satisfied if the property is sold or he can pay it off at any time. It does have interest which accumulates on it. That is the procedure set forth in the Statute. It's a charge against the property. Alderman Craffey But he's notified that he has the option to pay it off or whoever is holding the Note to the property is notified. Attorney Bennett Correct. The lien is put on the property. I don't recall seeing a mortgage. I wasn't actually doing a title search. The requirement is that we serve the owner of the property with that. Since we're not taking an interest in the property, we don't have to notify mortgage holders and so forth. Once we get it secured and once we find out, I'm hoping that once he gets served with an Order that he takes care of the property. Unfortunately some people are like that until they're absolutely sure somebody is going to do something. It's going to cost them money they won't take any action. We'll hold out hope he takes care of it and we won't have to worry about the lien. If not, our remedy is the lien. Alderman Craffey Thank you Mr. Bennett. Chairman Chasse I have one question. What happens if he does secure the property and he fixes the fence and now the fence is up and next year the fence falls down? Do you have to start from square one again? Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 5 Attorney Bennett Well we'd have Code Enforcement go out there and make sure that the fence is a secure sturdy fence. If he does that, then he's complied. Chairman Chasse So if he falls out of compliance again next year when the fence falls down, you have to start over from the beginning? Attorney Bennett I do. Chairman Chasse Oh boy. I'm sorry for you. Alderman Pressly Thank you Mr. Chairman. If I understand this correctly, the only time the City can do this is if it's dangerous. I did read the information in our packet. It was fascinating. I gather that this could be a real hazard. People could get hurt. My question is related to Alderman Sheehan. There are many properties across the City that people think is unattractive and would like to have some TLC done to it and they consider it an eye sore. I'm assuming that we as a municipality cannot do anything if it's just unattractive. The only time that we can take any action is if there's health and safety involved. Is this true and how often does this happen? I don't recall this happening too often. When the last time? Attorney Bennett The first time I've done one of these. We did do 20 Almont Street about 6 years ago. That was a house that we raised. It's under the same section. It doesn't happen very often. Most people will secure their property or repair their property before we have to essentially condemn it. You're correct when you say that the safety issues if there are safety issues on a property. We have a lot more authority to go forward and take care of those. Fire hazards, health hazards, houses that are infested with rodents, or insects and things like that that may particularly in a city when the houses are very close. We do have the authority under several Statutes depending on what the particular issue is to go in and take care of the problem if the owner doesn't. Unattractive property which sometimes is in the eyes of the beholder. I've seen some odd colors on houses in my life which I thought were somewhat unattractive. Unless it's a nuisance or a health or safety issue, our authority is limited to go on other people's property and correct it. Alderman Pressly Thank you. Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 6 Alderman Sheehan Thank you. We have named an owner. If it turns out that he's no longer the owner and it's been foreclosed, do we still have the ability to perform the work within 15 days or does the process start all over with the bank? Attorney Bennett We didn't find anything that indicated that it had been foreclosed on. I don't think that's the case but we wouldn't have to go through...we'd have to amend this Resolution essentially to put the named party in it. The Statute requires us to give the owner of record notice in 15 days to fix the problem. So if we were to find out later on that he wasn't but for some reason he had not recorded the deed, the transfer, I would probably recommend that we turn around and serve that new owner right away. We didn't do a full title search but we didn't see anything recent that indicated that the property had been transferred. Alderman Sheehan Does the $13,000 involve the cost that we need to recover for your time and the nuisance time? Attorney Bennett That wasn't calculated. It was calculated just based on the time for both time, the cost and the use of the equipment, the man hours, and the cost of the fill. That's what it's based on. Alderman Sheehan Thank you. MOTION CARRIED Chairman Chasse I want to thank you both. Now you can go home and have your dinner. Attorney Bennett I thought I'd stay for the next one since he had to listen to me in case any other questions came up. I did do the legislation. NEW BUSINESS – ORDINANCES O-12-30 Endorsers: Alderman-at-Large Lori Wilshire Alderman Michael J. Tabacsko AMENDING THE PROCEDURE FOR THE DISPOSITION OF PERSONAL PROPERTY RECEIVED BY THE POLICE DEPARTMENT MOTION BY ALDERMAN CRAFFEY TO RECOMMEND FINAL PASSAGE Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 7 ON THE QUESTION Alderman Craffey I'd like to if they could give us the Reader's Digest version of what was really changed in here. I see that felonious has been changed to illegally. In paragraph D, a large chunk was taken out. Detective Hagen I don't have either to tell you the truth. Chairman Chasse I'm letting a little leeway here tonight because the sponsors of this Ordinance are not here. Neither one of them. This would be setting precedent. I think I will allow Attorney Bennett seeing he's here along with Detective Hagen to put some input in. My feelings are we should table this after I get the input due to the fact that we have never sent anything through... Detective Hagen Paragraph D had to be changed because it doesn't fit under State law. If there's an item that comes into the Police Department's possession, and I believe paragraph D says, "The Chief of Police or the Commissioners can release it." I'm sorry. That's if we're going to change it to an online auction that was putting in a local paper. We'd still put it in the local paper that such and such an auction service will be doing an on line auction. There wouldn't be a specific date for the auction. It would be an ongoing thing like EBay. We're looking at propertyroom.com, which is an online auction run by some former police officers that do this nationally. Alderman Craffey Thank you Detective Hagen. I understood most of the Ordinance. I was a little confused on that one section. I'm glad you could clear that up. Detective Hagen We changed "illegally" because we can get property because of a misdemeanor which wasn't felonious. Alderman Vitale I know that they'd be doing advertising on the local paper. Does that go up on the City website also as a notice for people that maybe don't get the newspaper but check the City website for information? Detective Hagen I'm sure we could do that. I'm sure we're going to put it on ours. I can have our IT contact the City IT and also do it. Alderman Vitale I think that would be a good idea. There's quite a few people that don't get the paper anymore and do check for City business. Thank you. Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 8 Alderman Sheehan Thank you. I was going to ask the same thing about a link at least having it on the Police Department. The other thing is there any way to limit where the auctions are held to Nashua because we have our physical auctions often being held far away. So if somebody wanted to stop by and see if stuff they were missing was there, it becomes a big process especially if someone doesn't own a vehicle and as somebody who has had things stolen before. Trying to make it easier for someone to keep an eye open for their stuff I think is helpful for all of us. Detective Hagen Right now we're using a service out of Allenstown. So the auction that we do is not in Nashua. Propertyroom.com has a policy if somebody believes that item is stolen, they'll pull it off the site until it can be verified through the agency that submitted it. They also have a policy that if somebody sees it and it's sold in the interim, they will buy it back from the seller if it's proven that it was stolen and then return it to the owner free of charge. It gives more options for people. You have to have online service but it does give more options for people to check the auction for items that they think might be theirs. Alderman Craffey At this time Mr. Chairman I'd like to change the motion. MOTION BY ALDERMAN CRAFFEY TO TABLE O-12-30 MOTION CARRIED O-12-31 Endorser: Alderman-at-Large Barbara Pressly PROVIDING FOR PUBLIC COMMENT PERIODS AT MEETINGS OF COMMITTEES ESTABLISHED BY THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN MOTION BY ALDERMAN CARON TO RECOMMEND FINAL PASSAGE ON THE QUESTION Alderman Pressly Thank you. I sponsored this. I'd like to go to some of these meetings as often as I can. As you know, many times volunteers are working the committees. Sometimes public people do show up. They don't have it on their agenda as we have on our committees. It's basically a simple extension of our agenda rules asking them to apply that to the committees that this board creates. Again in thinking about this, I've noticed that not too often do people come to the meetings. It used to be the Chamber would be filled at most meetings. A lot of people came to speak. They don't quite so much anymore. When they do, I think it's really important that they have a chance and are invited to announce why they've come to the meeting and to have a chance to speak. It's just asking that the committees that we create follow the same agenda rules that we ourselves create. Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 9 Chairman Chasse I guess I'm kind of confused because if I look at the agenda for the Personnel Administrative Affairs Committee - Roll Call - Public Comment. Alderman Pressly Right. Chairman Chasse They don't do that. Chairman Chasse Every committee has a public comment. Alderman Pressly But not these other committees. They don't have public comment. Chairman Chasse Are you talking about like the Mine Falls Committee and stuff like that? Alderman Pressly Yes. I'm talking about that. I'm talking about the BIDA, the Downtown Group. There are all sorts of groups. Does the Historic District Commission have the two periods like we do? I can't remember if they do. Some do and some don't. I think it's important that every committee that is created by this Board be informed that they're expected to follow the same periods of public comment at the beginning and the end that we have established as policy for the Board of Aldermen to make sure it's extended to the committees. Sometimes they're advisory committees and that sort of thing. But to have people show up and not be invited to speak, I think is sad. This would just encourage that public participation to take place. Alderman Vitale It's never been in my experience that anybody has ever said they couldn't speak if they've asked to. I know like our Childcare Advisory, anybody that attends is more than able to participate. The Board of Public Works that I Chair on that, we have employees show up all the time. They're invited to have any comments. I did not know that it wasn't already being followed. If somebody requested to speak that they were ever denied that opportunity. I've never in all my extra committees I've ever gone to I've never heard anybody be denied an opportunity to speak. I wondered what everybody else's feelings were on that. I thought it was already basically being followed even if it didn't...they all have a different type of agenda that they follow. It's not as exact as the one that we have here. Some of the smaller committees if you show up, I always thought they were more than happy to listen to everybody that was there. I'd like to hear what everybody else thinks about that of the committees that they've attended. I obviously haven't gone to every single little subcommittee that we have in the City but I do know the ones I've been to no public has been invited to speak or if they have a question, their questions are answered. It's at the committee level that is one of the best places for the public to speak. That's where the decisions are made before it gets to the Board of Aldermen. Sometimes even our Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 10 committees such as this one. It's some of those beginning committees that's the best opportunity for the public speaking. I have never felt that that opportunity hasn't been given. Chairman Chasse Alderman Pressly may I ask you a question? Have you ever encountered, has anybody ever come to you and said I went to one of those - I'm going to call it a subcommittee per say - and they were not allowed to speak? Alderman Pressly I have seen it happen. Chairman Chasse I'd like to have a true... Alderman Pressly I have seen it happen. Part of the issue for people that don't come to a lot of meetings, they don't understand the procedures. A lot of times they wait to be invited. I'm a big advocate of public participation. I think it should be on every agenda that represents the policy of the Board of Aldermen. Maybe all it takes is a letter to or let it be known. Maybe we want to send a letter from this committee to everyone that they're expected to follow a standardized agenda that includes a beginning and an end period of an invitation. I think the difference is between somebody having to go there and interrupt to ask to be heard other than being invited to speak. To me, I don't know what committees Alderman Vitale but the meetings that I go to they just don't do it at all. Chairman Chasse You skirted around my question. My question was can you give me an example of where this is happening and somebody came up and complained that they were not allowed to speak at subcommittees. I know at many of the subcommittees, the public is invited to speak. Nobody has ever said no you can't talk. We don't have it on our agenda. The subcommittees are more or less freelance. Again, my question is give me an example of somebody who is upset because they couldn't speak on one of these committees. Alderman Pressly No one has come to me but I have seen these experiences and I have experienced it myself. As an Alderman I have attended a meeting and had difficulty being acknowledge to speak. I think it's a matter of their not understanding the rules and I think it behooves us to make sure that public participation is encouraged at all levels, at all times. I think there's a big difference between being invited and having to go to a meeting and sit around the corner along the edge and have difficulty being acknowledged. Chairman Chasse You haven't sold me on it right now. I'm going to wait to hear from somebody else. Alderman Dowd I'm curious. When we develop a committee like this do we mandate that they use Mason's Rules or do they have the latitude to establish their own meeting rules? I know a lot of meetings I've been to if it's not on the Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 11 agenda the Chair certainly has the latitude to ask the rest of the committee if they want to allow public input. Most every place I've been it's been allowed. I'm just curious as to whether we could be mandating something on the agenda if we don't mandate that they use Mason's Rules, then the agenda items are probably up to the committee themselves. Alderman Sheehan My experience has been that people have been permitted to speak. The Historic District Commission I was directly asked when people are arriving they're asked which case they're there to speak to or if it's something else so when a case is heard the right people are called up. If someone says they have something else to speak about, then we usually do that at the end of the meeting or if it's relevant to what we're going to be, they identify which case its concerning. My concern is some of these committee meetings we have start at 8. Business owners run them. If we say you have to have public comment and they are trying to get a meeting done within an hour, we have 15 Aldermen show up to make their points first, we could be there until noon and they're not opening their businesses. I'm afraid that some of them might be intimidated. If we're just doing this so an Alderman has the liberty to speak at a meeting, I don't think that's the right motivation to do this. If somebody had said I went to speak at a meeting and I didn't get a chance to, then I would be more supportive of this. If we're just using it to make sure that we have the ability to speak at a subcommittee meeting, I don't know that that's the right motivation for doing this. I guess that's where I stand. I have been to a lot of committee meetings and I've never seen anybody turned away. I've seen people there who don't want to speak because I've asked them. Well you didn't say anything, do you want to say something before the meeting is over. No, no I just wanted to hear, see, or what have you. Especially with students. There's a lot of students going to meetings nowadays. I think its part of the curriculum. I think that sometimes people are intimidated by the presence of us in their meeting. I'm hesitant to do this without some sort of experience in the constituent. I think we have other mechanisms to communicate to committees if that's what we need to do. Alderman Vitale I think pretty much - I can't think of a single example where people have come and they haven't been given the ability to talk. I do know that there are meetings that are held to one hour because that's a scheduled time and there's somebody for that space after that meeting. In my observation, the Chairman keeps track of the time and moves that meeting along so we can get done so we're out of the room at the time that we're supposed to be. Even under that situation, I've never, never seen the situation that people aren't given the ability to do their input not even once. I can't think of a single time. As Alderman Dowd or somebody said, maybe a simple letter just a reminder if the public is present to give them an opportunity for input is really all that it would take. I can't believe it's not already done. We as a City give our residents an ability to have information in oral format, a written format. They can come to a meeting. They can read it on line. We post all of our meeting dates outside. There are many, many ways that we give our residents an ability to have the information of what we do as a City and the decisions that are made. I know that as aldermen, we take phone calls. We have meetings for our constituents. In my ward alone I usually have 2 ward meetings and every month I have an ability from my constituents come see me at coffee time. They can call me anytime or e-mail me. I've never seen that a committee - somebody that has said I want to be part of a committee doesn't extend that to anybody that asks them a question from the time I was on Conservation Commission and people used to come and voice their concerns. Shoot we went to their house and looked at things that they were voicing their concerns at. I've never seen where that is not extended. Any of our people that we've placed on committees are to the point that they say no you can't talk ever, not once. Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 12 Chairman Chasse We are the Personnel Administrative Affairs Committee and I've been on this Committee since I've been elected. This is my third term on here. I'll give you a perfect example. I was at Mine Falls Advisory Committee. How many people have gone through these Chambers and we approve them to that Committee and they said in front of us and say oh yeah I've been to 4 or 5 meetings already and I've already put my 2 cents in. They're involved in the meeting and they weren't even on...they didn't vote. Let's get that straight. They didn't vote but they got very active in the Committee and then they came in front of us after 4 or 5 meetings and then they become a member of that committee. I don't feel comfortable dictating down to committees that you will do this. I think they're pretty liberal and like you said, do they run by Mason Rules or do they just get together and get something done. I don't want to be stepping on anybody's toes. That's my feelings. Alderman Dowd I'm not a member of the Committee but I think a simple notification to the committees when they're established or exiting that if at all possible, public input would be appreciated. I don't think we need legislation to do it. There may be some committees formulated by, as we were talking earlier, they meet for an hour and they're volunteers from different jobs. People are not going to volunteer if they're going to get tied up of all types of input. There are different ways that input can be submitted without having to have an oral input at a meeting if in those instances that they're trying to keep it to an hour. We can ask that they try to do it by letter but I certainly don't think we ought to mandate it by legislation. Alderman Craffey I've sat here and listened to everybody. One of the basic tenants this country was founded on was the basic freedom of speech. For any committee to deny that would be terribly wrong. I don't think we need to have an Ordinance to delegate to the committees to say they need to have public comment. I think a little reminder from the Board that they need to allow the public to speak. To have any citizen of Nashua to be denied the right to speak at a public meeting is wrong. If it's happened, the public should let the Board know. They should come here and tell us I went to such and such a committee meeting and I was not allowed to speak. This Board should be informed if that happens. Then we should then take this action. Right now, we don't need to take that action. I've been to many meetings both as a participant and as an observer and just sat there. If people in the public have a questions...sometimes they interrupt the meeting and say I have a question. The Chair mostly say excuse me can you just hold that question for a minute. Sometimes the Chair just says what's your question right in the middle of the meeting, they'll say excuse me what's your question. They tend to bend over backwards to answer questions in these committee meetings. When I sat on the Conservation Commission, that happened a lot. These Chairs from what I've seen are very, very responsive to the public. I can't support delegating to the committees. I happen to agree with my colleagues here on the Board that a simple reminder from the Board, probably from the committee through the President to allow for public comment. Just remind that they are a service to the public to allow public comment. If anybody is there, they should pick the time. I won't be supporting the amendment. Alderman Pressly As a sponsor and listening to the discussion, I think I prefer the letter too. I think that would be a much more appropriate thing to do and just a reminder to all the committees that it's appropriate that they invite people who are non members to invite them to speak. I think that would be great. I guess we just all go to different meetings but I have seen it happen at a couple of meetings. No one has come up to me afterwards. Usually Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 13 I'm on my way someplace else and they don't hang around either. I have seen a lot of people at meetings that I believe should have been invited to speak if they wanted to. A letter I think also just fine. Thank you. MOTION FAILED MOTION BY ALDERMAN CRAFFE TO RECOMMEND INDEFINITE POSTEMENT OF O-12-31 MOTION CARRIED O-13-32 Endorser: Alderman-at-Large Barbara Pressly PROVIDING FOR A PERIOD OF DISCUSSION BY THE ALDERMEN DURING FULL BOARD OF ALDERMEN MEETINGS MOTION BY ALDERMAN CARON TO RECOMMEND FINAL PASSAGE ON THE QUESTION Alderman Pressly The reason I sponsored this was I believe it was our last meeting where I think there was some confusion if we could have just comments or discussion. I thought it was sort of interesting because it was ruled that we could only have comments and we ended up with a discussion which I thought was pretty active and pretty good. I noticed that on Finance they do have a section for discussion. I don't know how it got there. I don't know who determines this but I think, again, this is an effort just to make sure that we get good debate. That we allow topics not just be single comments but to be able to have a debate like we did at the last meeting and maybe place it in the same position as the Finance Committee does. Also I think the important thing - one of the objections would be that it's not notified. At a discussion, there's never votes. Also if it gets long or out of hand, someone could move to end the discussion period. It's something that the Board itself could have instead of personal comments have a discussion on a topic and leave it to the Board to take the time to let people debate back and forth. The way it is now the only time we can discuss an issue is if it's legislation. Chairman Chasse I was totally confused with this one. I didn't know where you were going. I thought maybe it was during the public comment you were going to have discussion with the individual coming out to speak. You're saying you're going to have a discussion on a topic other than comments by the Aldermen? My feeling is those discussion should be held in committee when it comes to the memo. It's like beating a dead horse. You're going to do it twice. You're going to do it at the full Board; you're going to send the thing down to the committee, and you're going to get the committee, and you're going to come up with the same discussion you had at the full Board. Why are you even sending it down to committees? If you're going to have a discussion on a certain topic that's on the agenda, vote on it that night. Alderman Pressly Just a comment. We had a discussion at the last Board of Aldermen meeting. Even the President of the Board participated. I think that there are many times that there is a current issue that has come up that doesn't require legislation that needs to be discussed and debated. It's a matter of debate versus a single Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 14 comment. A lot of our comment period has developed into people just discussing what they've attended since the last time. Chairman Chasse So you're saying other than legislation? Alderman Pressly Yes. This is just a topic that came up at the last meeting. I didn't write this so I don't know how that happened. This is a time like the school attack was something that we had some debate on. I think there is a big difference between people being able to comment on what they've done, what they've seen, and their reaction to different things happening in the community. This would be an opportunity for somebody to say could we have a brief discussion on something that's taken place that does not involve legislation. That's really what we did at the last meeting. It's also what they do at Finance. Some of the committees do have a discussion period. Alderman Sheehan First thing just as an aside. I think it's interesting that this is to include a period not to exceed 15 minutes for comments from the public or others. It's kind of funny because a lot of times our meetings go for an hour and a half before we hit the agenda because of public comment. First Amendment I think is the way to do it. Aside from that, I think since I've been on the Board we have had discussion items put on the agenda and that would be my preference. If it's something so important, with 24 hours notice it can be added and be considered notified. I think if it is so important that we need to discuss it as an issue, it should be on the agenda and we should have time to have the public ring in either phone calls, e-mails, letters, or their person here. I think we do have a discussion every time we're ready to vote on something, discussion, okay all those in favor. It's said every single time. I think adding it to the agenda is just a time for open conversation. I don't think that's the way to do it. I don't think it gives value that the discussion deserves. If it doesn't have a point that is known 24 hours in advance that we're able to put out there so everybody can participate, I think it is simply comments with being able to go back and forth which is different than discussion or debate. I think we can have a discussion item added to the agenda and that would be the way to do it if you need to discuss a particular subject. As far as just leaving an open discussion, that just says can we add 2 hours to every meeting with no real purpose and then people feel like well I have to watch because what if something comes up. Rather than saying I can review it later, or I can check the paper. I just think if it is an important enough topic to have a discussion it should be put on the agenda so that everybody is able to prepare. Alderman Vitale I have to agree with the previous speaker a little bit. It would be helpful to have meaningful discussion if you knew that the topic was going to come up. If you had things that you wanted to gather to have meaningful input to the discussion otherwise many times there'll be a discussion item and if you don't know it's going to come up, you might not have your notes or whatever there may be present to be able to add to the conversation. So having a discussion that something is going to come up, I know many times we say at the end of the meeting Mr. Chair can you please find out this information so that we can discuss it at a later time. That topic is brought up at a later time with answer given and everything. I prefer to know in advance if we're going to have a discussion about a particular item that we need to all have input on. I would agree that that should be brought up and be put on the agenda beforehand. Otherwise, it is really just a remark time. At any time you can bring up something that you're thinking of. You can put it out there to the Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 15 rest of the Aldermen and I noticed this, here's what I'm thinking about it, I don't know what anybody else thinks about it. You might get 1 or 2 other Aldermen as they go around and they do their remarks that respond to those what those items put out there but you won't get a response from everybody because they're not prepared to give a response. It's very hard to have a discussion on things of community value, and interest, and everything else when you don't know it in advance. You don't want to put something out there that you don't really know the answers to. You want to be able to research it and be able to really participate in the discussion. It's like an assignment in college. You're given a topic, you come in and discuss it but you've had time to prepare and have our notes available. Otherwise if you want to just have a discussion, the person suggesting the discussion maybe is prepared but nobody else around the circle is. So you're not going to get a full fledged very meaningful discussion. That's my opinion. Other than that, it's just remarks and we all have the ability to bring up something that we'd like to discussion in the future, put it out there, maybe we can all come to an agreement on a time that we can add it to the agenda. To have a discussion when you're not prepared, I don't think is fair to the rest of the Board to give a really good answer to what you might be looking for. Alderman Caron I'm not going to repeat what my colleagues have said but I agree in that respect because you have 15 people around this table and if 15 people want to have a discussion, we're going to be here forever and a day. Sometimes those discussions can get very heated and that's not what you want. You're trying to get information and feedback. I agree that there's a time and place for that. I think during remarks you're talking about general information and as Alderman Vitale said if you're looking for something for down the road or to go to a committee and get more information to make a decision, I think that's the way to go. I really have some major concerns with this Ordinance. Alderman Craffey Thank you Mr. Chairman. I'm not going to repeat the previous 3 speakers. I agree that the remark section, the discussion by aldermen, we really don't need this area. Take our last full board meeting that came up when we talked about the school issue. That generated the discussion just by itself and when it came up, they started talking about money. They started talking about bonding. They started talking about this and that. That just came out as a comment. Someone made a comment and all of a sudden it just generated a discussion amongst ourselves by itself. That's what the whole comment by aldermen is supposed to be about. I can't support this as it stands. Though I can see Alderman Pressly's point for the discussion. If something like rail which always comes up. She might want to start a discussion about rail. I would agree with Alderman Sheehan that if you want to have a discussion about rail, you put it on the agenda as a discussion point. That's what I would suggest. The agenda is long enough as it is on some of those nights that we don't really need to add another 15 minutes to our time. Fifteen minutes could be spent better spent serving the people of Nashua. Thank you. Alderman Dowd I'm just curious if anybody has researched what Mason says when you're having formal meetings about discussion periods. Is there any criteria? Again, I think the point of if you have 15 people that want to talk about their particular subject and you try to limit it to 15 minutes that puts a lot of pressure on the President. How does he pick out which topic? First of all, he won't know which topics are to be discussed unless he asks Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 16 everyone. I just see it as being problematic at the full Board meeting. Again, I think the discussion periods are probably best held at the committee level and the people that are interested in that particular subject will come and talk about it. Alderman Pressly Thank you. Well this was a good discussion. Since you are the Personnel Committee, what is your opinion of when people write letters? You have a communication because I have felt there have been times that there has been a letter of communication in our packet and people would like to discuss that. It's sort of delayed and put off. Where does the Personnel Committee stand? How do you feel is the best way to get a subject brought up? We have communications. They're usually just put on file. I have felt that there have been times that people have said can we talk about that? They say that comes up under comment. What is the best way for any of us to get a topic to have a give and a take. I benefit a lot from give and take of the 15, of the committees. I'd like to know what you since you folks are the experts on Personnel. You see the communications. What functions do they fill if you can't discuss the communication? Chairman Chasse Any communication that comes to the full Board, to the Board of Education, for the Board of Public Works, to the subcommittees, it's recorded and placed on file. What is placed on file? They can go to the website and get it. They can come down to City Hall and get a hard copy. Whatever. It's on file. I have been putting Mr. Cutter's communications when he comes in on file because of all the people out there were asking well what is this communication? He just reads it but they didn't catch everything that he said. They're curious about it. That's why I have asked to put that particular one on file so now these individuals can go back on the website and pick up this letter and read it. It's not just placed in a circular file here. It's placed on file. Alderman Pressly May I comment? I would like to compliment you for doing that. I certainly have noticed that and I agree with you. It becomes the record and it's important to those people to have that record. What I'm talking about is often times it's a topic that we might want to talk about. A common one is to a request to approve something. Those frequently come from the Mayor where you place on file, you accept it, and you approve something. You take an action related to the communication. For the sake of understanding and making sure that we have the chance to dialog with each other which I think is very important. Chairman Chasse When you're talking about the full Board and one comes in if it's a memo from Attorney Bennett. It has something to do with something that's on the agenda tonight. If it's something from the Mayor, it's on Ordinance such and such or Resolution such and such. So you don't want to be discussing it then. You've got that piece of paper. You had it in your packet and you should have read it over the weekend so when you come to that ordinance or resolution that that letter pertains, that's when it gets discussed. It's like double jeopardy. You're not going to be discussing it twice. Alderman Pressly Okay so you're suggesting that any discussion on a communication is not appropriate. Is that what I'm hearing you say? Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 17 Chairman Chasse Communications are read by title only and placed on file. They're there for our use later on. Chances are if it's read and placed on file, it pertains to something that's on our agenda for the evening. So that's when I would utilize that. If it's a memo from the Mayor pertaining to an ordinance when I get to that ordinance, there's the memo. I'm reading the memo along with the ordinance, and I'm going to make my decision. Alderman Pressly Maybe I don't understand but many times, at least I think, we have communications from the Mayor and we approve what's in that communication and it's not on the agenda. Chairman Chasse Is that in the Finance Committee or are you talking full Board. I'm going to pass it along to Alderman Vitale. Alderman Vitale I think what Alderman Pressly is referring to is when a memo would come from the Mayor and we place it on file and we vote to approve the funds for this contract or that contract. In that case, we do vote on it. Whenever we make a motion to approve something, there is a moment for discussion. We do have the opportunity to discuss it. Most of the time, I know in my case, I've read it beforehand. Any questions that I want to ask I've asked them before I even get to the meeting. So there's really hardly any time that I need to ask additional questions. Somebody might mention something that I might ask it then or I'll listen to what they have to say and see if it changes my opinion of it. For the most part, all those things here in my packet I already know the way that I'm going to vote unless I hear something differently that would change my mind. So I don't discuss it at that time when we're asked all those in favor is there any discussion and we approve it. That's the moment on those memos that we discuss it. The rest of them are in our packet and we discuss later in the meeting as you already mentioned. Chairman Chasse I think most of those fall under the Finance Committee. The only time it doesn't fall under the Finance Committee is when there's an emergency. Let's say there's a cave in on Lake Street and the Mayor has to make a decision to have it repaired. She's not going to wait to go to the Finance Committee. That's when she would bring in one of those memos and that's when we would vote on it. That is an exception to the rule. Normally those things go to the Finance Committee. You just can't leave Lake Street busted up for a couple of months before it gets through to Finance Committee. Alderman Craffey Some of those memos that come in that we read and place on file, President McCarthy will refer to committees. An example would be the memo that I wrote to him referring to the Pennichuck Water request that I had made to the Board. That was referred to the Pennichuck Water Committee. So some of them that come in get referred to committees for review. Some of them get referred to Finance. Some of the memos come out of Finance to the Board because they're over $1 million, or they're multi-year contracts that need to be approved. The ones coming out of Finance are the exception to the rule but he does refer a lot of those to committee when they come out. Thank you. Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 18 Alderman Pressly Thank you. This has been a really helpful discussion. So I was thinking about this just because of the last meeting where I thought we had a really good discussion and we didn't just go around the room. We did go back and forth. I thought that's important for the Board of Aldermen to do I think. If someone has an idea that they want discussed at a committee level, what does it take? Does it take a simple letter? Can a citizen write a letter? Can a citizen show up and ask you to discuss this issue? To me it's frustrating if you want to get an idea generated, started, and discussed. You have to sponsor legislation. That's sort of gets a discussion started. So what do you recommend since you are the Personnel Committee? Chairman Chasse If it were somebody that wanted to speak at the Personnel Administrative Affairs Committee and it was something to do with something that's not on my agenda, I guess it's my option and the option of the committee to say yes or no. My feelings are I have no problem. I'll watch out that he's not attacking any alderman or something like that. There will be criteria on it but if they want to come in and talk about the taxicabs or something like that, that falls under us a little bit. Come on. Vent your frustrations out and let us here it. It's not on my agenda and I'm not one to say no you can't speak. It would be up to the committee also to make that vote. There is public comment and there's' also public comment at the end of our committees. I would not make somebody wait because it's not really the full Board of Aldermen. I could say you can wait at the end of the meeting if I wanted to be nasty, which I normally am but I have a kind heart tonight. Alderman Pressly I'm happy that this be an expedient also. I think it's thinks to be thinking about. I thought Alderman Dowd brought up some really good points as far as referring to the rules and see what they say about that. I'm just a firm believer in discussion things, discussion them openly, and I think also on the record. I think it's frustrating for me to feel that people have made their decisions prior to coming here. I think we owe it to the citizens and the public to explain the rationale as to why you think the way you do and what your thinking is with your vote. I just thought it was really healthy at our last aldermanic meeting to hear how some of the members felt about an issue and had the chance to talk back and forth. Chairman Chasse Do you know what's scary about this, we're going to do something with O-13-32 and right after this we have discussion. Alderman Dowd It is fully within the rules of order in Mason's that an individual can make up their mind before they come to the meeting based on any research, or data, or letters, or anything else that they've had. The things that's not allowed is to discuss it amongst various members of the group to try to form some kind of a consensus before the meeting takes place. You can certainly make up your own mind based on what you know about a subject before you come to the meeting. Certainly if you're open minded and there's discussion that changes your mind, that's fine but you can come prepared. MOTION FAILED MOTION BY ALDERMAN CRAFFEY TO RECOMMEND INDEFINITE POSTPONEMENT OF O-13-32 MOTION CARRIED Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 19 DISCUSSION Alderman Pressly I just want to say I wish I had a topic to discuss but I think we have covered them. I think that was healthy and good and I appreciate your committee taking the time. Thank you. PUBLIC COMMENT REMARKS BY THE ALDERMEN Alderman Craffey I just wanted to say thank you again for allowing me a little leeway on Ordinance 13-30 when we had the personnel here to answer my question. I wanted to say thank you. Alderman Sheehan Do we have any more personnel meetings scheduled for January? I was under the impression we would be getting some additional commissioners for Review and Comment and their season has started. Chairman Chasse As of right now, the only person we have in front of us for Review and Comment is Leslie Menenhall. I believe she's the only one that we have. She's tabled in our committee. The Mayor mentioned something about it. Alderman Sheehan My understanding is she has resigned and that there was to be someone new that she would be riding out without reaffirming and as per allowed for the ordinance but that someone else would be offered up in January. I'm thinking this is our January meeting. Do we have another planned? Chairman Chasse No we do not. There is nothing else on our agenda. I don't intend on holding a meeting just for one interview. If it's a reappointment, I still don't plan on pulling a meeting. I will break the rules, suspend the rules and I'll do it at the full Board for a reappointment providing it doesn't fall under the ordinance for one of those committees that have to come down in front of us. That's my discussion. Alderman Pressly I've been aware that sometimes there are different appointments that need to be filled. Does this committee ever get involved in checking on that to make sure that all of these different committees are filled? Chairman Chasse No we do not. The Mayor has a book and she keeps tabs of everybody. She interviews everyone that's coming back for reappointment and finds out their attendance at the meetings. So all this committee has to do is just bring the individuals in and we say yes or no recommending their appointment and then it goes to the full Board. If it's a reappointment, she's already done her homework and there's no reason for us to be doing double work. Personnel – 01/15/13 Page 20 Alderman Vitale I think the only exception to that are the appointments that are made by the President of the Board of Aldermen and he likewise keeps track of those. POSSIBLE NON-PUBLIC SESSION ADJOURNMENT MOTION BY ALDERMAN SHEEHAN TO ADJOURN MOTION CARRIED The meeting was declared closed at 8:08 p.m. Alderman June M. Caron Committee Clerk