Public Safety Committee

PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE November 2, 2017 A meeting of the Public Safety Committee was held this date beginning at 4:37 p.m., at 80 Broad Street, Council Chamber. Notice of this meeting was sent to all local news media. PRESENT Councilmember Kathleen Wilson, Chair, Councilmember Lewis, Councilmember Wagner, Councilmember Shahid, and Mayor Tecklenburg Staff: Interim Chief Tippett, Interim Chief Taylor, Susan Herdina, Kay Cross, Amy Wharton, and Bethany Whitaker, Council Secretary Other: Julie Novak, and Michelle Ferguson The meeting was opened with a moment of silence provided by Chairwoman Wilson. Approval of Minutes On the motion of Councilmember Wagner, seconded by Councilmember Shahid, the Committee voted unanimously to approve the September 7, 2017 minutes. Discussion and possible action on scope of work for Police audit Ms. Novak stated that they were scoping the work. They were meeting with various interest groups and stakeholders. They wanted to meet with the Committee on Public Safety to ask them questions and understand their interest. They had defined four particular phases. There was understanding the community expectations and experiences, looking at the Police Officer’s expectations and experiences, what the data told them, and then what the solutions would be. They would be exploring three areas that then form the solution. They had 2 meetings that day and a whole series of meetings the following day. The broad question was what they, as the Public Safety Committee, hoped to learn from the project. Chairwoman Wilson asked who they had met with that day and who they would be meeting with the following day, in terms of members of the community. Ms. Novak stated they had met with CAJM that morning, and the YWCA. They had a meeting with people from the Illumination Project, NAACP, Delta Sigma Sorority, and the Public Defender’s Office scheduled for the next day. Councilmember Lewis asked if they were doing the entire scope of work. At one time, they had another firm. Ms. Novak said that they were scoping the project right now, so they understood what other support they might need. They were in the middle of figuring out plan B. Councilmember Shahid asked if they were meeting with the representatives of the Solicitors Office. Ms. Novak said they weren’t on the agenda for the next day, but they could have other meetings. Councilmember Shahid asked if there were any other community related organizations that had been brought to their attention. Ms. Novak said not yet. This was the scoping piece and they were asking who they should be talking to. Councilmember Shahid said that they should meet with the Solicitors Office if they had time. Councilmember Lewis asked if the City would put out an RFP to replace the people with others that had the ability to do the audit the way they had been asked to do it. It would be a good thing to do an RFP and he would make a motion to do an RFP to see if there were firms out there that would be willing to come in. They had been dealing with this for over a year. He wanted to get it over with and he was tired of talking about it. It didn’t seem like Novak would be able to do everything that was presented to them back in October. Councilmember Wagner said that he had the tendency to agree with Councilmember Lewis and he would second that motion. They were doing two different things. They were looking at a very small, what would be a sub-contract, of the efficiency of the Police Department, and somehow they had swung it around to become a full Police audit. They were looking at all of the departments and the efficiency. He wanted to know exactly what was in the contract, because all he knew was that it was part of the efficiency audit. He asked what they had asked the contractor to do that she had been trying to sub-contract. They couldn’t tell a contractor how to run their sub-contracts because they were totally responsible for them. They needed to down-scope the efficiency audit and take that out if they went the other way. Then, it would need to go back to Council. Mayor Tecklenburg stated that he wanted to make a comment, because he didn’t think there had been a motion made yet. Councilmember Lewis said that he had made a motion that they would put out an RFP. They had always put out RFP’s and on this, they didn’t. They thought Ms. Novak would do it, and the people she had sub-contracted had pulled out. She didn’t have anyone to do it and they needed to separate this. Councilmember Wagner said that he would tend to agree to bring it back to Council if they down-scoped the current contract. They weren’t sure what was in there. Mayor Tecklenburg stated that the original RFP, that Ms. Novak had replied to, included, along with a general review of any department, a Police audit as well. It was there from the very beginning. Ms. Novak had an 88 page response, specifically, to that request, as part of her larger response. They had planned for Ms. Novak to come to the next workshop to review all projects. There were an initial 9 projects that she was working on and she had already started the review of TRC, and HR. Next, they would be doing a review of the Sanitation services. They had been stuck on this portion with the Police audit portion of the original contract. The concept of her services was that she would look at any given matter or department and she could sub-contract if she needed help with it or additional expertise. After a lot of community input, they decided that would be a good idea with the Police audit and that was when she had come up with the three firms. It was hard to attract someone to help when they received a lot of criticism from the Justice Ministry and others. RTI didn’t want to proceed in helping Ms. Novak with this matter. She had the other two she had recommended that they could talk to again. He had reviewed the list that CAJM provided and there were some firms on that list that they had worked with already, like PERF. He thought that was a firm that they could all agree upon. They could still do that, but in the meantime, he thought it would be appropriate to go ahead and proceed and let them decide what the scope of work would be. That way, they made sure that they were engaging with someone who had expertise in all the areas they decided the scope would cover. He said they should let them finish the scoping and review of other sub-contractors and then they could move forward. Councilmember Lewis said that Mayor Tecklenburg had made some good points and had talked about the other two firms. This was just as simple as putting out an RFP and seeing if there was a firm that was willing to work with the City or Ms. Novak. He asked what was so hard to put out an RFP. Mayor Tecklenburg said that might be the best way to determine who was going to help. He didn’t disagree, but said they should finish the scope first, so they were aware of what they were being asked to do. Councilmember Lewis said he had a motion on the floor. He wouldn’t withdraw it. Chairwoman Wilson said that they had charged Ms. Novak with coming up with the three firms, which she did, and now they were down to zero firms. She asked if they were in violation of their own sub- contract. They had said, as a Council, that they would have Ms. Novak find the firms and choose one to work with. She asked if each of the groups that Ms. Novak had met with was providing thoughts and questions for their own scope of work. CAJM gave a series of questions they wanted to see in a scope of work. Were the other groups doing that as well, or were they soliciting thoughts from the other organizations and then cumulatively piling it together? Ms. Novak stated that they had received the scope of work form CAJM, but their approach was to ask open-ended questions to allow them to share their perspectives. Chairwoman Wilson asked if they were accepting specific items or questions from other organizations if they chose to submit them. Ms. Novak said yes. They would come back and look at all of the things people had asked for to determine the scope. Councilmember Shahid said they had put out the bid for a performance audit. Part of that included an audit of the Police Department. That was what they, as a Council, had voted on and approved. As they got more into the details of the contract with Novak they moved to have a police audit done. They went through the process of approving and selecting a sub-contractor, who had now pulled out. The issue wasn’t whether or not they would engage in an audit, but, two-fold, what the defined scope of work would be, and, after that had been determined, what company or sub-contractor would be engaged into that process. That was where they were right now. They were already engaged in the process of conducting an audit. Mayor Tecklenburg said they had the ability to. Councilmember Shahid said they had already approved to have a police audit. Mayor Tecklenburg said it was part of the original RFP. Councilmember Lewis said that Ms. Novak would audit departments she had more experience in, but she wasn’t as experienced in this. Her department didn’t do this type of audit. He asked why they would continue to try to make it a part of her contract to do something that she had never done. They could put out an RFP, and there were others out there that would love to do this for them. This was different than seeing how other departments in the City functioned. This was dealing with the public. They needed to get in there and take a look at things that were going wrong. Mayor Tecklenburg said that was what they were trying to do. Councilmember Lewis stated that Ms. Novak’s firm didn’t have experience in doing that type of work. They were giving her the same responsibility of what the Council could do putting out an RFP to see if someone was out there that wanted to do it. They needed to just put out the RFP and find someone else to do it. Chairwoman Wilson stated that her concern was that they were violating what they were charged by City Council to do. She said she wanted to give Chief Taylor the opportunity to speak or offer comments on this matter. Chief Taylor stated that they had discussed the parameters in reference to the stops. The statistics were available. They had talked to Novak in reference to the audit and they were open and willing to the audit. Councilmember Shahid said they had a contract with Novak and had obligations and responsibility. He asked if they took something away from the contract if they were in violation of the contract. Susan Herdina said that she didn’t have the contract in front of her and she would like to see what the specific language was on sub-contracting, but as a general matter, the issue of the sub-contractor belonged to the contractor. The City had a relationship with the contractor, but not the sub-contractor. They could comment on the sub-contractor, but at the end of the day it was the contractors decision. In this case, if they wanted to make the police audit something more than what was described currently, they would have to amend the contract. In order to do that, they would have to get the consent of both parties. They would then pull that out of the contract and have a separate contract that would deal with that issue. She thought the issue was whether the police audit was now something different than what was originally contemplated when the contract was entered into. It sounded like it was bigger than what was originally contemplated, and if so, they needed to modify the agreement. She hadn’t focused on what the scope of work was originally and whether or not it was covered by the current contract or not. She was happy to look at that, but in order to make it a separate RFP, they would have to amend the existing contract. Councilmember Shahid said if they moved forward with Councilmember Lewis’ motion, they would be setting themselves up for a lawsuit. Ms. Herdina said yes, if they couldn’t reach an agreement on amending the contract. Councilmember Shahid said he would ask Councilmember Lewis to reconsider and defer the motion and let Novak continue with the scoping component. Chairwoman Wilson said she would like Ms. Novak to take a look, because they had some quality firms. They could do better and she didn’t think any of them were completely satisfied with the three firms that were originally brought to them. She understood the Socratic Method of open-ended questions and engaging the groups. However, she thought that, along with specific ideas and thought they had, should be engaged. The scope of work that CAJM brought was a start, and she thought the other organizations should be allowed to bring specific thoughts and questions. She would like to see all of them included so they could see where the commonalities existed. They might find that every group asked a certain amount of the same questions. That helped define the scope of work. She wanted to keep the City out of legal trouble, but she was ready to go ahead and issue an RFP. They should see where they could go with this because they had some quality firms that had been suggested. Chairwoman Wilson asked what Ms. Novak’s thoughts were on a more specific scope of work. Ms. Novak said they were willing to accept any specific thoughts or questions. Chairwoman Wilson said there was valid information to be gained from a set of questions/suggestions or items that could be presented for the scope of work. There was room for a simple back and forth and she would like to see everyone’s concerns and proposed scope of work included in the process. Councilmember Wagner said there were two different things there. There was a full-scope versus an operational audit that was just a piece of the contract. There was no doubt that contract modification would be necessary if they did anything but what they were doing. Ms. Novak had to get paid for what she had done. His argument was that he would like to finish this before they went and performed a full Police audit. The people he had met with had agreed it was two different things, but they wanted to do it con-current with one another. Council rejected the Police audit one time. They were mixing apples and oranges and they shouldn’t do that. They needed to fully define the scope with their assistance before they went back to Council and asked for it. He had no problem with the Police audit. He wanted to know when it stopped. Some of the things that had been talked about had happened in the last 20-30 years but this was a different world now. He also asked where they got their statistics and they said from the reports. He asked who racked and stacked because statistics could be funny. They needed to see how they were coming up with the statistics so he could help scope this out to either approve or disprove what the statistics were showing. They never got to that point where they could sit down and look at it. He had a tendency to believe they were a little early and they needed to defer this. They would get in a lot of trouble if they didn’t. He asked what the hurry was. They had waited almost 8 months. He had to ask for another month. Councilmember Lewis said a motion to defer superseded any other motion and he would go along with another month until the next meeting. He hoped the City, and the Mayor could work with any group to define the scope and do what they needed to do. Chairwoman Wilson asked if they would engage organizations with tangible scopes of work they might choose to bring forth. Ms. Novak said yes. On the motion of Councilmember Shahid, seconded by Mayor Tecklenburg, the Committee voted to defer the motion to have the City issue an RFP for a firm to complete the Police audit. The vote was not unanimous. Councilmember Lewis voted nay. Discussion on proposed Firefighter pay plan Mayor Tecklenburg stated that he had been working with HR and Chief Tippett on the pay plan for firefighters and they could speak about it in broad terms, but if they wanted to talk in more detail, they may need to go into executive session. Councilmember Lewis stated they had discussed this in detail at the Human Resources Committee meeting. He thought that was where it needed to be. He didn’t think Public Safety needed to be discussion pay plans. If there was any recommendation, it needed to come from the HR Committee. Chairwoman Wilson said she agreed and she thought the intent was to get the broadest of overviews. This had been an issue for years. She knew Chief Brack had tried to rectify it, and now they saw it starting to bear fruit. This was an HR matter, and a joint committee meeting might be warranted. Councilmember Shahid said he might have been one of the ones who wanted this on the agenda because it was an issue that had percolated. He wanted some understanding. They could sit with the HR committee or they could finish the other business and go into executive session. Councilmember Wagner said they could just do an outline/summary. He would propose that they should have a joint Public Safety/HR meeting. Councilmember Lewis said he didn’t know if they could do this before the budget, because staff had already started working on the budget for pay raises. Ms. Wharton said it was fine if they wanted to have a joint meeting, but it would have to be the next week because they had to have the budget done by the following Friday. Mayor Tecklenburg said this would impact the budget, so they would be back to Council with this as part of the proposed budget. Ms. Herdina stated, because this was a personnel matter, other than ‘we are working on and looking at it’; they would need to have an executive session. Councilmember Shahid said they could talk move to the next item and then have an executive session. Update on Fire and Police Chief Searches Kay Cross stated that they had posted the Chief positions on September 13 and they had closed on October 13. PERF and ESCI had been working on the applications. They had 84 applicants for the Police Chief and 116 for the Fire Chief. They met with PERF that day to get an overview and they were very pleased with the pool of applicants. They were meeting with ESCI the next day to see what they had for the Fire Chief. They were still in the very preliminary stages and they didn’t have any type of short list yet. They hoped to narrow it down in a couple of weeks and have interviews sometime in December. Councilmember Shahid said he assumed they were getting a broad base from a geographical standpoint and experience standpoint. Ms. Cross said yes, and also from a diversity standpoint. Chairwoman Wilson asked if the first cut had been made yet. Ms. Cross said it hadn’t been made yet. They were doing a very thoughtful and thorough process, which the City preferred. They didn’t want to rush it, and they wanted to do it the right way. That was a lot of applications to go through. Councilmember Shahid asked how many they would get down to once they filtered through. Ms. Cross stated that they didn’t have a predetermined amount. It would be around 5. Councilmember Shahid asked what the next step would be after that. Ms. Cross said once they got down to that number, they would have the candidates come in and they would have interview panels. The Public Safety Committee members would be part of that. They hadn’t set the dates yet, because they didn’t know exactly when it would be. Councilmember Wagner asked if they had ranking criteria established and how they would bring it down. Mayor Tecklenburg stated that they would start with what they advertised. They relied a lot on the companies that they contracted with. They met with PERF and she knew a lot about the candidates. She did this for a living. Councilmember Wagner said he wanted to keep it as objective as possible to get to the cut level and then once they sat down with them, they could figure it out pretty quickly. Councilmember Shahid asked what the general time frame would be. Ms. Cross said she hoped to have the interviews in December, but it could go into January because of the holidays. Councilmember Lewis said they hired firms that had experience and they shouldn’t rush them. Councilmember Shahid said he agreed and they shouldn’t rush it. People liked to have a general idea because uncertainty was a question and he just wanted to make sure they were moving in the right direction. Ms. Cross said the Committee would be very involved in the process. As soon as they had the dates nailed down, she would let them all know as much ahead of time as she could. That was just a preliminary timeline, and they weren’t rushing anyone, but they did need to look at how the process would go. Executive Session to discuss the proposed Firefighter pay plan On the motion of Mayor Tecklenburg, seconded by Councilmember Shahid, the Committee voted unanimously to go into Executive Session at 5:31 p.m. Mayor Tecklenburg and Chairwoman Wilson left at 5:45 p.m. On the motion of Councilmember Wagner, seconded by Councilmember Shahid, the Committee voted unanimously to come out of Executive Session at 5:53 p.m. No action was taken. Having no further business, the Committee adjourned at 5:55 p.m. Bethany Whitaker Council Secretary