Ordinance & Legal Review Committee

UNAPPROVED CITY OF BELLEVILLE ORDINANCE & LEGAL REVIEW COMMETTEE REGULAR MEETING MINUTES DECEMBER 11, 2012 - 6:00 PM Members Present: Alderman James Musgrove (Chairman), Alderman Melinda Hult, Alderman Ken Kinsella, Alderman Dave Martinson, and Alderman Lillian Schneider Guest Present: Mr. Michael Hagberg Chairman Musgrove called the meeting to order at 6:00 PM Public Participation: The Public Participation started with Mr. Hagberg stating follow up information on the Occupancy Permit discussion from the last meeting. He said somewhere he read, he thought that it was in the City’s Ordinance Book, that a new born child is allowed to sleep in a crib in the parents’ bedroom for the first year without counting toward the maximum occupancy. In the discussion, after the meeting, he discovered that a person selling a home is able to obtain a pre-occupancy inspection that can be transferred to the new owners. He would like to hear a discussion on whether or not the City should require all sellers to obtain a pre- occupancy inspection when selling a home. The seller does not have to repair any of the items listed on the inspection report but should be required to provide a copy to any prospective buyer. This has multiple benefits. First, it will notify any new buyer that Belleville requires an occupancy permit and Second, it will state the maximum number of people allowed to live in the home. And finally, it will allow them to know about any issues that have to be corrected before they can move in. Alderman Schneider stated she thought this was a good idea because it will let the buyer know, unless the property is being sold “as is”, what city codes must be taken care of. Alderman Hult said a person should hire their own inspector to check the property before they buy it. Approval of the Minutes: Alderman Lillian Schneider made a motion to approve the Minutes for the November 13, 2012 Meeting, seconded by Alderman Ken Kinsella. All members present voted Aye, motion passed. Old Business: A - Discussion of Ordinance Amending Chapter 33 (Belleville Property Maintenance Code) by Amending Portion of Sections Thereof. Alderman Ken Kinsella started the discussion by stating that he was not aware of anything that has changed in the wording of the Proposed Ordinance since the last meeting. And the Proposed Ordinance that we talked about is more liberal than the existing Ordinance. Previously we did not have anything that said a new born child could stay in the house without being added to the Occupancy Permit. This Proposed Ordinance will not require that a new born child be added to the occupancy permit for a period of one year. Alderman Kinsella then said he suggested that we Page 1  UNAPPROVED vote this new proposal in because it is an improvement. Alderman Hult asked whether we were talking about just new born children or also newly adopted children. Alderman Hult then asked what is our time requirement if other people move into that house, such as grandma moves in or your adult child moves back home. Chairman Musgrove said those situations are normally not permanent, it is usually temporary and the residents may not have to do anything. Alderman Schneider then said that this is where the rules get fuzzy and should be more clear. Chairman Musgrove said that this proposal talks about new born babies and is not ambiguous. Next, Alderman Kinsella asked if we should change the proposal to say “new born child or adopted child”. This led into a discussion of several different subjects. Alderman Schneider said she thinks how many children you have is not the business of the city. Alderman Kinsella said he thinks it is the city’s business. In the case where someone reports that too many people are living in a certain house and the City sends someone out to check and we must have standards for this. Now the question is what the standard should be and this change to the existing Ordinance will make things a little more livable. Alderman Hult replied with a question, do we need a number or do we need names and ages. She then said the real crux of the matter is the size of the bedroom is only a guide line and we are treading on shaky ground. At this point, Alderman Martinson, who was Fire Chief for the city, stated that we do have guide lines for the size of the rooms. The city has adopted the International Property Maintenance Codes that specifies how many persons can safely stay in each room. He did not know off hand the specific number of square feet but knows these guidelines exist. You have to adopt the codes so that you do not have to define these kinds of things for each individual Ordinance. Alderman Hult then asked how the City plans to handle the dormitories that Lindenwood College plans to build. Chairman Musgrove said that was a good question but really did not have anything to do with the Ordinance we were discussing. Next, Alderman Schneider spoke up again and repeated that she did not think it is right that people should have to report a new born baby to the City. She does not think that it is anybody’s business except the people that live in the house. Alderman Kinsella answered with an example of someone moving in to a small house and bringing in eight people to live there. If there are no problems maybe no one would care but if it turns out that problems develop, we have a law against it. Whenever a police officer writes a ticket, he must use common sense. Suppose that we have a situation where someone has passed away and someone reports that they have seven kids staying at the house. However, they are all there to clean or paint or something. We are not going to write a ticket for that because the Judge would not approve it. You have to use common sense. We cannot write a law that covers every possible situation. That is why we have judges and inspectors or police officers who must use common sense. Alderman Hult spoke again and asked how intrusive does government need to be. Alderman Kinsella replied he thinks the purpose of the Ordinance is about having a list of people who are allowed to live at that residence. At this point, Chairman Musgrove asked is anyone was ready to make a motion on this Proposed Ordinance Change. Alderman Kinsella said he would like to make a motion to approve the Proposed Ordinance with the change in all sections, following the words “upon the birth”, adding the words “or adoption of a child”. Motion was seconded by Alderman Martinson. Voting was done by Roll Call. Alderman Hult, voted “NO”, Alderman Kinsella, voted “YES”, Alderman Martinson, voted “YES”, Alderman Schneider, voted “NO”, Alderman Musgrove, voted “YES”, Motion passed. Page 2  UNAPPROVED B – Discussion of Ordinance to prevent residents from moving yard waste (including grass cuttings and leaves) into city streets instead of bagging for removal, composting or other means of disposal. Chairman Musgrove started the discussion by explaining that the Ordinance book already covers this situation. See section 40-1-16. 40-1-16 SNOW IN STREETS. (A) No person shall dispose of any snow, leaves, or grass from private property by transferring such snow, leaves or grass to the streets of the City. (Ord. No. 6806; 12-19-05) Alderman Schneider asked what is the penalty for violation of this Ordinance and who is responsible to enforce it. Alderman Kinsella said it would be interesting to find out if any tickets have been give out for violation of this ordinance because if he were a policeman and he saw someone blow this stuff into the street, he would go knock on their door, say you are not allowed to do that, and if they cleaned it up, he would not write a ticket. Now that might be different for a guy that has done it for five different times. Alderman Schneider said what got her thinking about this subject was when she had the street sweeper come out and clean the street and then some people blow stuff right back out into the street. Alderman Hult said she thinks the big problem is, when they blow this stuff into the street, it can wind up clogging the sewer system. In her neighborhood, after a heavy rain some people are out scraping stuff away to unclog the drains. Alderman Kinsella mentioned the fact that there are a lot of leaves that wash down into the sewers, legally, that is just blowing off the trees into the street. Alderman Schneider said that we should make this problem better known by the public. She suggested having it as a subject in one of the quarterly Information News Letter the Mayor sends out. Alderman Kinsella said “You can’t legislate someone into being a good neighbor”. He added that he would venture to say that most of the people who are blowing stuff into the street, really know it is not supposed to be done. Alderman Schneider asked again, what is the fine for this kind of thing. Chairman Musgrove answered that the fine could actually be up to a judge because the Ordinance can say something like “a fine of up to 250 dollars or up to 500 dollars”. Then Alderman Schneider asked if we could put something like this information on the big sigh beside Engine Fire House 4. Alderman Martinson answered that we would have to ask the Fire Chief. Alderman Hult said it would have to be a short message. She continued to say we are off the hook for education at this time of year but maybe in the Spring we need to make a push about educating the people. Also, we should explain that we are not just being arbitrary but that there are consequences to not following the rules. Alderman Kinsella said it would be interesting to know, from the Sewer Department, how much it costs to haul off all that stuff carried by the water to the sewer plant. At this point, Alderman Hult asked if there was any action needed on this subject. Chairman Musgrove said we can ask the Mayor to add this subject to his Spring Informational News Letter. Alderman Kinsella suggested we make it a positive approach by thanking all the people who do not blow grass and leaves into the street. Thank them for being good citizens and it is not negative. Alderman Hult made a motion to adjourn, seconded by Alderman Martinson. All members present voted Aye. Motion Carried. Respectfully Submitted by James Musgrove, Chairman Page 3