Historic Preservation Commission

City of Fresno City Hall 2600 Fresno Street Fresno, CA 93721 Meeting Minutes - Final Monday, August 27, 2018 6:00 PM Regular Meeting Fresno City Hall, Second Floor Room 2165N (Conference Room A) Historic Preservation Commission Chair Patrick Boyd Vice Chair Jason Hatwig, LEED, AP, BD+C Commissioners: Robin Goldbeck; Paul Halajian, AIA; Ron McNary; C. Kristina Roper, M.A.; Don Simmons, Ph.D. Staff: Daniel Zack, AICP Assistant Director; Laura van Onna, Historic Preservation Specialist; Amber Piona, Planner II, Recording Secretary; John Hastrup, Deputy City Attorney II Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission The Historic Preservation Commission welcomes you to Room 2165, located in City Hall, 2nd Floor, 2600 Fresno Street, Fresno, California 93721. The City of Fresno’s goal is to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) in all respects. The meeting room is physically accessible. If, as an attendee or participant at the meeting, you need additional accommodations such as interpreters, signers, assistive listening devices, or the services of a translator, please contact the Office of the City Clerk at (559) 621-7650 or clerk@fresno.gov. To ensure availability, you are advised to make your request at least 48 hours prior to the meeting. The agenda and related staff reports are available at www.fresno.gov, as well as in the Office of the City Clerk. I. CALL TO ORDER AND ROLL CALL The meeting was called to order by Chair Patrick Boyd at 6:05 PM. Commissioners Present: Patrick Boyd, Robin Goldbeck (arrived 6:11PM), Paul Halajian, Jason Hatwig, Ron McNary, Don Simmons Staff Present: Laura Groves van Onna, John Hastrup (CAO), Amber Piona, Dan Zack. Present 6 - Chair Patrick Boyd, Vice Chair Jason Hatwig, Commissioner Don Simmons, Commissioner Ron McNary, Commissioner Robin Goldbeck, and Commissioner Paul Halajian Absent 1 - Commissioner C. Kristina Roper II. APPROVE MEETING MINUTES A. ID18-1015 Approve Minutes for April 23, 2018. Attachments: HPC_Minutes_Apr_23_2018 The minutes for April 23, 2018 were approved 5-0 with a motion by Commissioner Halajian and a second by Commissioner Hatwig. Commissioner Goldbeck was not present for this vote. B. ID18-1016 Approve Minutes for May 21, 2018. Attachments: HPC_Minutes_May_21_2018 This item was left open until the arrival of Commissioner Goldbeck and voted on after VI: Commission Items. Commissioner Simmons and City of Fresno Page 2 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission Vice-chair Hatwig, having not attended the May 21, 2018 meeting, abstained from voting. The minutes for May 21, 2018 were approved 4-0-2 with a motion by Commissioner Goldbeck and a second by Commissioner McNary. III. APPROVE AGENDA The agenda with was approved 5-0 with a motion by Commissioner Hatwig and a second by Commissioner Simmons. Commmissioner Goldbeck was not present for this vote IV. CONSENT CALENDAR None. V. CONTINUED MATTERS None. VI. COMMISSION ITEMS A. ID18-1017 REVIEW AND COMMENT ON THE PRE-APPLICATION, CONSISTING OF CONCEPTUAL ADAPTIVE REUSE PLANS, FOR THE ELIA HOME (HISTORIC PROPERTY #311) LOCATED AT 634-640 VAN NESS AVENUE PURSUANT TO FMC 12-1606(a)(2) and (b)(23). Attachments: Elia Home Pre-Application Attachments Commissioner Paul Halajian recuses 6:08 PM Historic Preservation Specialist Laura Groves van Onna presented the staff report for the conceptual rehabilitation/ adaptive reuse plans for Historic Property #311, the Elia Home (634-640 Vann Ness Avenue). The purpose of this review and comment is to initiate discussion and provide advisement before moving forward in preparation for a proposed project. Review of a Pre-Application is not formal project review, cannot result in an approval or denial, and may not be relied upon by the applicant for any purpose other than obtaining generally-applicable information about the historic review City of Fresno Page 3 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission process. Conceptual plans include a change of use to commercial. Staff’s primary concern is the façade and setback as these are character-defining features of the historic resources that are readily visible from the public right-of-way. Commissioner Robin Goldbeck arrives 6:11PM Chair Patrick Boyd: [to Historic Preservation Specialist Laura Groves van Onna] could you go back through and make sure that [Commissioner Goldbeck] can the see the images at the beginning of the presentation she missed? Historic Preservation Specialist Laura Groves van Onna: Sure [shows the presentation slides Commissioner Goldbeck missed]. Commissioner Jason Hatwig: Do you have the photos from the primary record? Groves van Onna: I have a print out of it. Hatwig: I ask because there is a picture in there that shows the adjacent lot that is right now vacant, with a building in it. I am wondering about the side yard and if it acts as a frontage or not based on the evidence that houses originally sat next to it. Groves van Onna: Which side lot, the south or the north? Hatwig: The south. Groves van Onna: It’s a vacant lot. Hatwig: Yes, it’s been vacant since the 1990s, but there used to be a home there. Commissioner Don Simmons: Where is the glass garage door being proposed? City of Fresno Page 4 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission Groves van Onna: [indicates where on the map] Hatwig: There were steps at one point that led up to the upper floor. Commission Robin Goldbeck: What is the distance from the building to actual property line? Public Comment Open Phillip Kliewer (owner of 640 Van Ness): 11 feet on the south side and about the same on the north side from the duplex to the property line. That stair to the second floor; that second floor door was actually added at some point; it used to be a sleeping deck but was enclosed. It’s our intention to not put that stair back in if possible. When we had the pre-application with the city, the fire department said that the square footage might be low enough to not require it to go back, and if we did need to, it would be preferable to put it on the north side of the building. The north side of the building is more of a back of house type of area, behind the store front. The store front door in the back was added (you can see it in the rendering) there is a pass through from the backyard to the front of the storefront. Can I talk a little bit about our concept and why we’re designing it the way we are? [Indicates rendering on screen] Right now if you go past the building there’s a fence, it’s not optimal but necessary for the security of the site. We’re bordered by two dirt lots and there’s a large population of people who are looking for places to hide out for the day. We’ve had two break-ins, one just two weeks ago. Security concerns are a big part and we feel that elevating the deck out front would alleviate it. Across the street is just parking lots; it’s not Fulton St (we wish it was). We feel elevating it a little bit; even just that mental elevation is something that will help. Also, it gets hot out front; I like this trellis idea more so up front than on the side because it gets glaringly bright and hot in the day. I think trellis would hide the building less than a bunch of umbrellas. I think the rendering makes it look like there’s a huge deck out front, but we’re talking about ten feet, maybe. A site visit would make that clear, what we’re hiding is everything below the elevation of the front porch, which is 18 inches. I would get rid of the trellis on the side and City of Fresno Page 5 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission extend it out front. I would put it closer to the edge of the fence. Without some kind of elevation or some kind of shade up front it does not become a useable space up front. Otherwise we’d bring back a fence that’s covering the deck and the front 18 inches of that porch just as much of this deck is. We could consider tiering down a bit front the deck, we’re talking about maybe 10 feet and ADA accessibility starts to become more of an issue. Our main focus is the backyard, but we would love to create some front of presence with people in the front of the building to help this area of downtown and without an attractive seating area, it’s not going happen. We feel that we may be hiding a little bit with this trellis, but at the same time, but is like makeup hiding a woman? Not necessarily, we feel like it’s enhancing the whole property. Maybe that’s a terrible analogy. We’re really trying to enhance the building and attract more people to it. The biggest alteration is the back roll up door, for sure. We could just take this building we could keep it residential, keep it low rent and not put much money into it. But we want to make this area of downtown special and in order to do that we need to think a little bit outside of the box. We want to make something that’s special; we’re trying to make our dream go wild and not settle for keeping it the same as it was. Chair Patrick Boyd: Any questions for the applicant? [to the applicant] Anything else you’d like to comment on? Kliewer: If you have questions, I’d love to answer them. There are a couple things we’re definitely not going to do. Right now it shows the storefront covered with wood. We’re not doing the wood, we’re keeping the stucco Art Deco type moldings on the front. This was a conceptual rendering. Assistant Director Dan Zack: Are the materials or anything being changed on the front of the house? Kliewer: We’re playing with colors, but not changing the siding. Right now the building is white. It’s blindingly white; we’d like to tone it down a little. It wasn’t always white, at one point it was aqua blue. I’m not sure what the original color was, I think the white detracts from the building. This building isn’t the Meux Home, there aren’t a million different details all over the City of Fresno Page 6 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission place, but there is some. We would like to use color to accentuate the detailing of the building. There are way too many white or gray or beige buildings downtown. Hatwig: Regarding ADA accessibility, with the State Architect because it’s a historic building you do get leniency on certain items; is it possible to have the access to go the back? It would give you more space in the front. Kliewer: On the south side, we do have the same ramping situation because of accessibility. We’re ramping up from both sides up onto the deck. Zack: Is that the narrow brown band along the south side of the house that we’re seeing. So you’d go up along the side and track back? Kliewer: Yes, sir. I don’t think we get too much leniency for the first floor because it’s a restaurant. If it was an office we’d have more leniency. I was going to talk to the City’s ADA person [Jan Bier, Architect] to do a walkthrough with her before we finalize plans. At this point we’re not planning on asking for any exceptions; I don’t want that to be an issue going down the road. Commissioner Don Simmons: Thanks for putting the ADA access on the front. Often times when the ramps or other accessible access points are in the rear of the building it makes a person with a disability feel like a second class citizen. It’s a back of the bus mentality. Goldbeck: From a federal standpoint [lost to crosstalk] access from the right-of-way. Kliewer: I have a daughter with a disability and I am very aware of that, and mindful of it. I don’t want any part of this place (except maybe the second floor office) to have any kind of prohibitive nature. That is what pushes me away from doing a tiered front system. I don’t want there to be a bunch of little steps that preclude someone from spending time anywhere on this site. Hatwig: I am okay with the trellis in a side yard because the side yard wasn’t City of Fresno Page 7 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission originally a frontage, which is what I pointed out earlier. Not only that, side yards on these buildings often had covers; awnings and things. Kliewer: I’ve seen a picture; there was one here at one time. You can see in the front picture, there’s actually like a driveway ramp that was where they parked. I’ve seen a picture of a lean-to carport that must have been taken down at some point. There are some old railway ties that used to have supports on them. One of the only conditions that we had with the pre-application with the City was that we were going to have to take the driveway out when we change from residential to commercial. There will have to be some grading because of ADA going up to that side yard. We have to balance visual appeal from the outside with keeping it as historically pristine as possible. We’re conscious of that. Security is a huge issue on this site. We installed a bunch of security lights last weekend and this fence soon after we purchased the place. Every time I’ve come by there has been someone sleeping on the porch. We know this will be an issue. We want to design it so we’re not putting in barbed wire fences or wrought iron fences that are curved with spikes. I think there’s a way to do this so that it doesn’t look like it’s secure, but it really is. It’s really about making your property somewhere that isn’t easy to sleep in, we can use gates or low fences. Even a low fence or landscaping can prevent people from trespassing. We will try our best to keep as much of this building as visual as possible from the street. We’re trying to make the raised deck as transparent enough so that you can see the front of the building. I think having people out front, experiencing the building, they may not see the bottom 18 inches, but at least they are there being a part of this 100-year old building; it’s a good trade-off. Hatwig: It appears your trellis isn’t attached to the fabric of the building; it’s off set? Kliewer: Yes. I want to hold it back a little bit. Standing at the steps, or where they used to be, you’ll be able to see all the way up [the building] and all the way down. Boyd: One of the things that we often see on historic properties is kind of a City of Fresno Page 8 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission backpack concept. That’s where you leave the front façade as historically accurate as possible and then you put on essentially a backpack, which handles all the new amenities needed to make the building work for modern applications. The backpack concept is something that we’re familiar with, but this is more of a front pack. Kliewer: Yes, totally, it’s a fanny pack. Boyd: I think the backpacks that work well are the ones that try not to match the building. The new portion will use a distinct modern design to keep the new and the old distinct. That might work well in this application here. Your lines for your railings and lines for your trellis are thinner and cleaner, and you have the old building coming out of the modern wrap. Keep everything separate, the actual construction of it, so if a future owner wants to return it to original, it would be a demolition with it and it would be restored. I have no problem with what you want to do to the back, normally I think we would ask you to leave the front pristine, and do what you want with the back and to some degree the sides. But you don’t have any neighbors right now, so your sides are wide open to visual access which makes it a little different. I like the idea of what you’re trying to accomplish up front, I think there is a solution here that is a little hard swallow because it’s a lot different than what we normally see. Normally, this stuff gets hidden in the back yard. Kliewer: I don’t like hiding stuff. We’re definitely doing a backpack; the backyard will be amazing and the highlight. I hate the idea of hiding the front out front; there just won’t be anybody out there if we don’t do [what is proposed], it’s such a small space in front of that porch that if we don’t do this it’s not going to be used. With this design you could have a party out here; people could rent that space for public party. Maybe someday this is what brings more development to this corner of downtown. We’re shooting for the stars with this, we know that. I half expected this to be all shot down. Boyd: We can’t deny the value of the use of this space. What this body is looking at is the architecture, the façade. While all those comments are good and right, we’re only looking at it from an architectural space. If your desire is to put this space out here, then our concern is that the solution is City of Fresno Page 9 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission going to be respectful of the original building and architecture and not detract from the building from the public’s perspective, not the validity of having a seating spot out front. Goldbeck: I think this genesis is working its way towards something we can work with, from the first one which was a big block in the front to the latest rendering. I think some more careful detailing will help. I am not convinced that the entrance straight shot up is the only answer. I would encourage you to explore other ways to get into the building. I like the trellis out there (I know this schematic) I would think about different detailing that honors that original architecture. Boyd: You have two comments there, mine which is push it more modern and [Commissioner Goldbeck’s] which is get it closer to the building and you can go two different directions and both would work. Kliewer: Could I get clarity -- would this be rejected if I submitted it; what could I change to get it not rejected? This isn’t a huge space (although it looks it here). Because of the slope of the property coming from the sidewalk as well as the actual space from the sidewalk to the front porch, there isn’t much space and quite a bit of elevation difference. There’s only so much we can do playing with ramps and stairs. Actually having a uniform fence, whether it looks like this or like something else, looks better, in my opinion, than having a ramp up front. We’re not married to this, we’re not married to doing a trellis out front or even a deck out front, and this is secondary everything else we’re doing in the back. It’s great that you like the backpack and are okay with the roll up door. Goldbeck: We don’t have jurisdiction over that. Kliewer: That is something I’m confused about. Commissioner Ron McNary: How deep was the original front porch? If it’s deep enough you could put tables on the porch without the trellis. Kliewer: It’s about 6 feet, you could fit one or two tables without impeding City of Fresno Page 10 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission traffic. McNary: Ideally we’d like the façade to stay the same without an added deck. You could have intimate seating on the front porch, and it may work just as well as a deck, and you could keep the large seating in the back. Kliewer: There isn’t much space; the storefront impedes into the porch about one quarter of the way. We’re talking about 18ft by 6 ft or 20ft by 16 ft. With the two doors, one to the second floor and one to the first flood, then you’re talking about placing one or two tables. It’s not a big useable space. With just a few people out front it’s a lonely scary thing, I personally wouldn’t want to sit there by myself. We would end up doing that if our proposal wasn’t allowed, but it wouldn’t be a big useable space and it would end up being a bunch of landscaping. Hatwig: We don’t have jurisdiction over rear elevations because they are not public spaces. That’s why a lot of historic homes did additions in the back, back there is pretty much free-range. It depended on the context, too. We do have historic homes where the rear does have an alley and there is a public view. In this particular scenario the back is pretty much free range. Kliewer: That’s great, that’s fantastic. That was the way we were proceeding, although we are trying to keep it somewhat ‘vintage’. We’re not trying to take this and make it a new age thing, we’re definitely going to have stuff that is modern because the times. Hatwig: We do also have options here to form subcommittees. We’ve been able to create a subcommittee when we’ve had some interesting projects that came up, like the Caltrans bridge [Belmont Overpass], where the context was presented far off from the input we were giving and so there was an ability to work through those in a tight group, one-on-one setting, for guidance and giving the owners some additional help. I think that might be valuable to something like this project, because it is unique. It’s not Fulton Mall, it’s not in a neighborhood with a bunch of homes and buildings around it; it’s a very unique scenario. A subcommittee could be an option that would be very helpful. City of Fresno Page 11 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission Kliewer: We’d be open to that. Simmons: I just spent 9 days in what I call the Land of Adaptive Reuse, Columbia, SC, Augusta, GA and Greenville, SC. These places bill themselves as Not Charleston. Older buildings, less fear. I like what you did here, I ate in a restaurant called the Trellis which is in a revolutionary era house surrounded by a trellis on all four sides that do not attach to the house, but gave lots of eating and drinking space along the whole rear of the house. I have eaten in many of these types of restaurants in Columbia, drank in more of them. Kliewer: I nominated you to be part of the subcommittee! [All]: [laughter] Simmons: I agree with Patrick, you could go further, go more modern with those trellises. I like the front porch, so much of what they’re doing is inviting people to walk in. [similar places in South Carolina and/or Georgia] also used a gate because of the same urban issues we have here. Also these are hot places, Columbia’s nickname is Hot City; it’s hot there with humidity, so sitting under a trellis with sprayers was a different experience than sitting under a trellis with a sprayer here. I like that, I like coming out to Van Ness. I am surprised you didn’t do something behind the pop out building addition on the front, on that side, because I thought you could use extend your backyard space over there and that way you’re facing the galleries. Kliewer: There is a dirt lot on that side as well. There’s a good chance that that back area behind the storefront will become more back-of-house type stuff. Because it’s a restaurant we have to put stuff like restrooms for the public and that [area] might be a prime candidate to hide back there behind that [building]. Right now we’re looking into turning that storefront into a commercial kitchen for the restaurant with possible access from the front. While I love the idea of putting people back there, if we did that, it might be at a second floor elevation. City of Fresno Page 12 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission Simmons: As for me, what you’ve presented here. I say go for it. Go further! The design of the trellis and the fence could be significant in themselves from another era, and because I’ve seen so much of pulling early 2010s thinking on 18th century housing [on my recent trip]. I wish we had more of this here. The communities I visited advertise themselves as Not Charleston, because the restrictions that Charleston puts on historic structures prevents them from being useable buildings. While this is what draws visitors to come look at them, it prevents locals from having things like a bar next door or a business in a neighborhood they can walk to. My mother lives in Hazelton, a historic district, and she has to go far out of the neighborhood to get to a grocery store. The neighborhood is picture perfect unless you have to live there. Columbia said that they wouldn’t do that, so adaptive reuse in houses just like has resulted in shops in the front yards. I think you can get there. I was thinking about Robins in Cambria where their outdoor area has more dining than their indoor area. I am really excited about what you presented here, and look forward to having what you’re showing downtown, where people can walk to and walk into from the street when they’re out at Art Hop. Hatwig: This reminds me of Rainey Street [Austin, TX]. What I love about Rainey Street is that even though their buildings are painted eccentrically, it brings you to the historical context because it’s familiar and not familiar and draws you in. I do love adaptive reuse, and obviously there’s a way to do where the old and the new are distinct. I love the idea of front yard usability. Kliewer: Rainey Street is a big inspiration, as well as countless other places across California. Fresno doesn’t really have a lot of historic houses that are used for commercial purposes like this. We have it in Clovis, there’s a lot of that in downtown Clovis, which is great, but not in Fresno and not in this part of Fresno. We’re trying to take the old and preserve it, we’re not going to change a single thing on the columns and the railings (we are going to have to raise them a little bit for safety, but it’s going to look exactly the same), but we’re going to add right up to it. We’re not interested in changing the house, but we’re going to make it more comfortable for people, lots of people to be at. Useable space that draws people in from the front to the City of Fresno Page 13 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission back, not just straight to the backyard; let’s start up front. The sidewalk is the entrance not the front door. I love Rainey Street, that’s the best, having people all over. Let’s put a band on the porch, let’s make some noise. We can, so why not? Boyd: Are we pro-front yard design? Goldbeck: I am not opposed to this. I am hearing that we would approve something different from the existing house. Boyd: I want to get a sense of where we are about the idea of putting anything in the front yard. Goldbeck: I am okay with that. I think it needs some tweaking. Boyd: [to Hatwig] You sound like you’re pro. Hatwig: Yeah, specifically because there is nothing adjacent to it; it would be different if it was just a neighborhood. In this instance, I am super pro. Boyd: [to Simmons] You’re pro. Simmons: Yes. Boyd: [to McNary] Pro, anti? How are you feeling about this one? McNary: I am a restorationist. I like to see things in their natural state. I am not really happy with the raised deck all the way to street; I could do a trellis if it was in keeping with the house. I am not fond of the idea of putting something completely separate look, because I am a restorationist. I think the back is the place for where things could be done, which is why I suggested making tables on the front porch if you wanted something visual out front. Boyd: I am drawn towards the idea of putting a system up like this as a solution. I think it’s a solution for many reasons, but it’s a sensitive one City of Fresno Page 14 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission because we are covering up so much of the front façade. My vote would be to move forward with this, but as [Commissioner Goldbeck] was alluding to there are a lot of little details about putting it together. There is a solution going more modern with the trellis/deck, and one going more preservation-centric. McNary: I’ve been to New Orleans a lot and there are old houses in the French Quarter that have been made into restaurants that have small seating areas in the front but most have courtyards in the back. I like that because the façade is Old French Quarter New Orleans, and that’s where I am coming from. I have trouble with covering up the façade of the house. Groves van Onna: From what I am hearing there is openness to making the front/side yard useable space. Are there any further design guidelines to provide the applicant moving forward in the design process? For example, how do you feel about the height of the front deck. Hatwig: The rendering exaggerates the height. It’s only about not even 18 inches a drop once it gets out of the curb area. [discussion of how high things would be. Kliewer: I would be able to stand up and see over the top of that rail. Right now that fence is about 4.5 feet up and 6 inches off of the sidewalk. We’re talking about maybe a little higher than that, but more transparent. Boyd: One of the historic aspects of a house like this, is that they had a sidewalk that wrapped around, between the foundation and the sidewalk there was a kind of foundation planting and outside the sidewalk was usually turf. It’s a kind of classic landscape of that. So if you took those built wing walls on either side of the deck there, put them in three feet and actually did foundation planting there it would soften the weight of that whole deck. Even if it was something as simple as an evergreen hedge running that side, it basically takes out the negative aspects of the new architecture and leaves the old architecture of the main building to take center stage. You cover up the things you don’t want to see with landscape and let the things you do want to see, the important pieces of architecture, City of Fresno Page 15 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission come forward. Hatwig: You may be able take the stairs on the left side and ditch them if you make the right side be your primary access point. You can extend a fence or gate to the right side. Kliewer: That is the intention. Hatwig: I don’t know if fire access needs the stairs, but it’s just a thought. Kliewer: We’re not sure if we need those stairs if we have the ramp on the right. There’s a good chance that maybe those just go away and that the fence is extended all the way to the store front. Goldbeck: Maybe a little relief of massing along that front, and in that corner. Kliewer: You’re saying those little rails in front of the porch, those two rails in front of the stairs having some landscaping there? Is that what you mean? Groves van Onna: I think you’re saying along the perimeter of the fencing. Boyd: [gets up and explains approach on rendering projected on screen] This is really heavy right here. Between the other rendering (that is all white) and this one, what makes [the new rendering] nicer is that you have this little planter box here. Just take the planter box and extend it all the way down. These two walls essentially squeeze in like this, and this ends up being, essentially, a hedge. Kliewer: I think that’s a great idea. Boyd: [continuing to point at rendering] Slim down the railing a little bit so it’s less visible and do something with the trellis so that it’s less visible. All this stuff disappears, turns green with landscape, which is like using a big eraser. City of Fresno Page 16 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission Kliewer: We were matching the railing of the porch to that front railing, is that better or worse? Boyd: Well again to our earlier discussion, which way do you go? You either match it, pulls cue from the architecture of the original home and pull that into the trellis and pull it into these railings and here, and if you do that you need to be like spot on with all the little details. Or you go the opposite direction and you go much more modern and maybe this is a steel trellis and instead of having all the cross braces over the top, this is maybe steel post and has cable, so it’s very open. Hatwig: Even if you go the matching route, it couldn’t be the exact same, typically, because you want to distinguish new construction from old construction. Goldbeck: To me, the piece that makes the context of the original stand out is the symmetry of the old building. If you massage how your planters are, how your wall is to pick that up even though the materials might be different you could reflect a more symmetrical, more stately form in a new way. Boyd: All your answers are already given to you. You have this existing building. There is a rhythm to all the little elements of architecture, as far as offset spacing and setbacks, and all these different things. You can literally take the math of the architecture, use those numbers and use them in different places. Goldbeck: You know you have the deep eave up on top? I would think about somehow forming the trellis in a way that sort of reflects that. Boyd: There are all kinds of different things you could pull reference points from. How far should this be set back? Let the building, the site, the existing features tell you. Kliewer: So what I’m hearing is: this is generally okay and we need to tweak some of the detailing? City of Fresno Page 17 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission Goldbeck: This is on its way. Kliewer: Okay, we’re fine with tweaking. Goldbeck: The commission is looking to honor the existing architecture, not necessarily copy it. Hatwig: So with that information, does a subcommittee need to be formed? Boyd: We would all like to see it again. What’s [the applicant’s] confidence and your designer’s confidence with what we’re telling you and taking the advice we’re giving you and use it. We’re kind of in the weeds on details here. Goldbeck: I don’t know that it’s our job, even as a subcommittee, to get into detailing that will have an effect on budget. I think our job is to give some general guidelines and then you and the designer the budget is all under your hat. Kliewer: The general guidelines I’m getting from this is that this is generally okay, the path we’re proceeding down is generally okay. We need to work either matching elements or go a completely separate direction. But what we’re actually trying to do, covering that 18in. façade, while not ideal, could be done here in this instance. I don’t want to design something and then have it be rejected. Boyd: As you’ve pointed out, this is clearly different from what we’re used to seeing. Question for staff: posts on the south side of driveway, as they are set right on the property line, is that okay? Zack: No, that’s not a problem. This is downtown, and you can build right up to the property line. The main consideration is the historic compatibility right because the zoning doesn’t provide any constraints there. Goldbeck: You’re speaking to the zoning code, not the building code? City of Fresno Page 18 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission Zack: Yes, I am. If this was in Wilson Island, for example, then there would be side setbacks. But in this particular setting, historic non-withstanding, we consider building shoulder to shoulder in an urban fashion to be fine and setbacks would not come into play. Kliewer: If this was a residential neighborhood with other residential buildings to the north and south of it, we would probably make this a residence. There is no residential around that area whatsoever; this commercial use just seemed like the best fit for the property. I would love for there to be more residential in this area. If I could buy the neighboring lots I’d put in a mixed use building. That’s not where we’re at right now, and for this to be viable we’re going commercial. Boyd: Look forward to seeing the next version. This is cool. Kliewer: Is there anything you need to see anything inside? Or does the inside not really matter? [All]: No. Kliewer: The interior is going to be opened up, although we’re going to try to keep it to the house aesthetic. Probably a little funkier, but still house. Hatwig: It’s not often that the interior comes up. Unless there is some major feature like a grand staircase. Boyd: Well really, interiors come up if they are public. Groves van Onna: Staff and Commission are available if you’d like guidance on the interior, but you are not required. Kliewer: I included that floor plan, so if you guys had any comments then let me know. For the most part on the first floor we’re opening up the space. We’re talking about doing skylights on the back roof. That is visible from the back. It would only really be visible from certain angles from the alley. Is there any issues with putting skylights in the second floor office space? City of Fresno Page 19 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission Hatwig: It’s an alley; don’t think it would be an issue. Kliewer: We’re trying to do a light well type thing where we’re showing the structure of the [points to image projected on screen] yeah like that in the bottom left in what was a kitchen/sleeping deck and now it’s a conference room. Hatwig: The good news is that there is flexibility on the sides, the back and inside. The façades are the focal point for us. Kliewer: Okay, just wanted to make sure. Groves van Onna: Was this helpful? Kliewer: Yes. Glad you guys, for the most part, liked it. We’ll keep trudging along; we’re in the middle of design. Our structural engineer Michael Yount is working on it. Hopefully in a year or so this will be up or running but I won’t hold my breath. Groves van Onna: Phillip I will provide you a letter and a copy of the minutes in case you need to refer to them. Public Comment Closed Item Closed. B. ID18-1018 STAFF PRESENTATION FOR FRESNO TROLLEY CARS DINER (STANDARD DINER) (HISTORIC PROPERTY #099) LOCATED AT 1731 S CHERRY AVENUE. Commissioner Halajian returns 7:18 PM Deputy City Attorney John Hastrup (CAO) presented information on Trolley Cars 1731 S Cherry. The trolley cars are currently affixed to the property and the most recent actual use was a restaurant. The general feeling is that there is no general historic value to the property itself, just to the cars. Staff City of Fresno Page 20 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission has been working on what we can do to preserve the cars, whether that be by taking the property back or getting it sold in some manner, or maybe relocating the cars. The ways of doing that include attaching nuisance liens which now exceed the market value of the property. The current owner, it is believed, purchased it at an online auction for some very low price several years ago and has not undertaken serious efforts to undertake basic of maintenance. This individual is not paying attention to the property at all, and she might be located in Southeast Asia right now, which has presented issues trying to get service of process on her so that staff can initiate steps to take it back. There’s a tax lien process, so staff has attached these particular liens, but the process will only allow the City to get the property back if the county would move on with a tax sale, and for whatever reason the County Council and the County generally does not seem to be interested in pursuing tax sales on these sorts of properties. After a property is severely delinquent, the code contemplates that the County or property tax authority body would move forward, but this is not happening. This property is more than five years delinquent. Another option staff is pursuing is to create these liens into an executable judgement; it would work the same way as a tax sale, but the City would have to cooperate with the sheriff to hold a sheriff’s sale, and then the City itself could credit bid up to the value of the liens and fines that have been put onto the property. If there was another buyer interested in the property, there might be interest in this option; the City would like to avoid getting into the same situation again. Recently staff has been looking into alternatives and possibly using code enforcement to move the cars themselves. The CAO has started working with code enforcement through those alternatives. The CAO has budgeted money to serve the owner via publication, and is hoping that the judge will accept that service so that staff can begin trying to take that property back. Staff will provide an update when something good happens here; preliminary resources approved have been approved for use to move forward. Simmons: Is there any documentation on the conditions of the cars in terms of movability? Deputy City Attorney John Hastrup: Not to my knowledge. Do you [to City of Fresno Page 21 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission Assistant Director Zack] know anything about that? Zack: No, I don’t know if they’ve been assessed from that vantage point. Hastrup: I will talk to our code folks. Moving the cars is a backup, we would like the ability to take the property with them affixed because that would leave us with the most options. We are looking into other options as well, and there has been conversation with the adjacent owners because I don’t think anybody is very happy with the current situation. Simmons: To go back to the streetcars, I was thinking we could pass a parks ordinance. Get more money to parks, and move them near the trolley barn at Roeding Park. They’ve been there before. They’ve passed through there, and they would then become more publicly accessible. Boyd: Is this a unique situation or are there many properties throughout the city? Hastrup: With historic significance? I don’t think there are many. Now code abatement issues? Yes there are many. There are a lot of those, and there are many dozens that I don’t understand why they have not been subject to a tax sale. I have no good understanding of that, our office has no good understanding of that. It would seem that the tax sale would help, and the whole legal structure contemplates that this is one of the purposes. It’s not just to recover monies that are owed to the county, although the city would get a good portion of the money in the tax sale as well. It’s also to clear up, and for whatever reason that’s not occurring. Commissioner Paul Halajian: when you talk about code enforcement, these are artifacts on a piece of land; these are not buildings, correct? How would you apply code enforcement to an artifact? Aren’t the codes written towards maintenance of buildings and structures for human habitation? Hastrup: They are currently considered buildings because they have a foundation. From a legal standpoint, it doesn’t take much to convert a movable structure to a building. You can have a very poor foundation and City of Fresno Page 22 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission convert a cruddy old RV into a building, technically. A lot of the reason for this is that we have different legal treatment for folks in their residences and for commercial buildings. It’s a little more difficult to apply some sort of code enforcement theory to remove something that is currently considered a building from a property. There are some arguments; I think there is concern about these things being broken into. There are no real vested property rights that anyone’s hugely concerned about by leaving them there. It’s not like there’s a person living in them or a tenant trying to do something. But you’re right, I think to do it exactly legally correctly there would have to be some care taken and I think you’d have to argue that leaving them as buildings poses a problem. Our code enforcement attorneys who are working on it are looking into that. If we didn’t get the judge to accept the service by publication, it could be in the next few months that we could start the levying process to take them back. We just need to satisfy the due process of taking away someone’s property and you can delay things a fair bit by just being out of the country and unable to be served, unfortunately. Boyd: They’re not going to send you to Southeast Asia to deliver papers? [All]: [Laughter.] McNary: To abandon a property is giving up your rights to it… isn’t there something…? Hastrup: Well, in terms of just declaring a property abandoned, not specifically just that. Usually that occurs through the failure to pay taxes or some other thing, but merely leaving it, in and of itself without another problem, we can’t just take it. Groves van Onna: The owner of the property has also been unresponsive. Hastrup: Yes, if she were responsive we would not have a problem. At one point she did hire a real estate agent and it’s unclear what that agent did. I doubt the agent is excited about this property; the commission would not be very high and the property is not super marketable. City of Fresno Page 23 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission Zack: The agent isn’t able to be reached either, right? Hastrup: Yes. I don’t know if that relationship still exists. I doubt this person is going to sue us if the property gets taken back. We just need to get something that would be legally viable to get ahold of the title. It’s disappointing that it’s not done via tax sale. McNary: I thought there was something in there about public nuisance and abandonment of property. Hastrup: That doesn’t get you the title to the property. Going through the condemnation proceeding for a property that’s abandoned and a huge nuisance, but that still is going to ultimately involve due process requirements on the owner. But I feel pretty confident in the code staff and our folks. I believe that this has attracted enough attention that efforts are being undertaken because we don’t want the historic resource to go away. McNary: It would be great addition to Playland or Roeding Park. Hastrup: Yes. The more political interest and community interest there is, and folks talking to Council members would help. I don’t think the issue is widely known just yet, but it’s creeping up. People are starting to hear more about it. Item Closed. C. ID18-1019 CHAIR/VICE CHAIR ELECTIONS. Chair Boyd and Vice-chair Hatwig indicated that they are happy in their current positions, and would be willing to continue if the rest of the commission agreed. Current Chair Patrick Boyd and Vice Chair Jason Hatwig were nominated to continue as Chair and Vice Chair approved 6-0 on a motion by Commissioner Simmons and a second by Commissioner Halajian. VII. CHAIRPERSON'S REPORT City of Fresno Page 24 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission None. VIII. UNSCHEDULED ITEMS A. Members of the Commissioin 1. Lowell Home Tour Commissioner Simmons recapped the Lowell Home Tour. It was the first Lowell historic home tour and interest was high; over 200 people attended. Food was donated by Richards and a signature cocktail was provided. Commissioner Simmons underlined the importance of supporting activities like the home tour to raise awareness of historic preservation in the city. 2. Historic Preservation in the South Commissioner Simmons recapped his trip through 9 cities in the south and the examples adaptive reuse he encountered, including architectural framing on a lot to show what used to be on a property. Commissioner Simmons also shared examples of honoring difficult pasts, and emphasized the importance in having diverse voices in historic preservation and how important that is to Fresno. He mentioned that during his trip he learned that there was a Chinese neighborhood in Columbia, SC that he had never known about although he grew up in the area. 3. Potential Surveys Chair Boyd asked for status report on the priority list of surveys the Commission had created. Groves van Onna: Chinatown is at the top of the priority list. I’m the process of creating a recon survey for the Chinatown area. I’ve been kept pretty this summer; additionally factors such as heat and smoke haven’t been ideal for surveying. So my plan is to get those going this fall. 4. Old Armenian Town Historic District Chair Boyd asked for status report on the Old Armenian Town Historic District nomination and when it will be heard by the City Council. City of Fresno Page 25 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission Hastrup: Nothing to report at this time other than there have been efforts with the developer, the redevelopment agency, and everyone to find a path that will allow the district to go forward without causing an issue with the proposed development. It seems to be a relatively small set of issues and I believe they are going to work through them, but we’re still kind of in the same place right now. Certainly, if that development moves forward and gets a little further along and more clarity then it should remove any of the concerns, but that’s where we are right now. I will say that it’s probably every one to two weeks where there’s some sort of meeting trying to resolve concerns. That’s all I’ve got on that, I apologize for the lack of specifics. Boyd: As the purveyors of an important district, the concern is that the reason we put this whole thing together was so that these elements would protect against negotiations, whatever those may be, of either the historic properties or adjacent properties. That’s why we build districts: to protect those sites. We’d have a lot more confidence if this was in play and approved and subsequent development negotiations were coming in after that. Hastrup: I don’t think that there’s any serious concern that the district will not go forward or that anything being done will impact the district in meaningful way. These are technical, legal concerns about how the presence of a district might allow certain challenges to a development that is essentially already approved. It’s concern about opening up for technical challenges; I don’t think that the developer or anyone at the city ultimately thinks that there’s going to be a problem with the district going through or that anything’s going to be incompatible with the district. It’s just to make sure that we have a nice district and we ultimately have a nice development. That’s where we are right now. Simmons: That doesn’t make sense to me. Hastrup: I’m not comfortable getting into specifics. If you want any particular request, or have any particular question, I can take it to the powers that be and maybe write a confidential memo. But I’m not comfortable saying City of Fresno Page 26 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission anything else at this time in a public forum. Goldbeck: Do you have a sense of a timeline? Hastrup: I do not. I can just say I think everyone who’s involved is committed to the district. That’s all I can say. Goldbeck: I think that’s what leaves us confused. If that’s the case, why isn’t it moving? Hastrup: There are some particular legal concerns that I’d rather not get into in a public forum. That is the issue with moving forward on the district. I can’t say anything else, I’m very sorry. Goldbeck: [to Boyd] Didn’t you make a request regarding this being placed before the City Council? Boyd: Yes, we sent it out. Goldbeck: Right but it got sidetracked. Do I recall you asked for information or an update or something? Boyd: It’s been a while. Halajian: Could we ask for a confidential summation of the legal problems in play? Hastrup: I can take that to the powers that be. Halajian: So confidential means it’s distributed just to the commission? Hastrup: Yes. Goldbeck: I don’t know that I object even if it’s distributed just to Patrick. Then you [Boyd] will have information to tell us to cease and desist. City of Fresno Page 27 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission Hastrup: Well, the problem with giving things to Patrick only is that it could put him in a difficult position with the Brown Act, because he couldn’t have discussions with all of you, legally. If everyone was comfortable giving it to Patrick and then Patrick could say “Well I’m happy” or “I’m not happy.” If Patrick discussed without saying what was in there how he felt about it to everyone else. Goldbeck: I was trying to avoid Brown Act problems. If we all knew would that be a problem? Hastrup: No. I can send things individually to everyone; the Brown Act applies when you all have a quorum among yourself Boyd: If we get the information and we’re all okay with it, then essentially the item’s dropped on our part until it actually gets passed up to commission. If any of those issues come up and we’re not okay with those issues for whatever reason, then we have a problem. How do we discuss it? What’s that process? Hastrup: The Commission is in charge of determining districts at least at the first stage before it goes to Council, and in charge of the historical resources, and so you can make direction upon city staff. It can be overridden by Council, of course. We would still have to keep any information confidential, but you would be allowed to pass a motion or recommendation expressing, in a general way, concerns and those probably would be listened to. Boyd: Can we do a closed session on it? Hastrup: I don’t know how we do closed items in HPC. I will look into that as well. I don’t remember anything in the ordinance about it, but maybe there is. I can request the authority to draft a confidential memo, and I can also look into the issue of having a closed session. There are very narrow grounds for having a closed session; there’s consideration of a real estate deal, there’s potential litigation, there’s personnel issues. I don’t know that any of the Brown Act exceptions would apply, so that leaves us with this City of Fresno Page 28 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission weird one-way communication. Boyd: It seems kind of odd to have a closed session about anything that might come up about a historic district, which is a public issue. Groves van Onna: Would it be helpful if the commission voiced their support to the City Council regarding this? Would that encourage the timeline to move forward? Hastrup: The commission is welcome to do that. I want to make sure I’m not in any advocacy role. Although I certainly have opinions about all of this stuff, I’m not allowed to share them. But yes, the commission could publicly state any position. Halajian: Let’s go back to the process. If you were to send this confidential memo to each of us individually, we can form an opinion about it but we can’t discuss it amongst ourselves, is that correct? Hastrup: You can’t discuss it among a quorum. Halajian: So two of us can speak, but all of us can’t speak. Hastrup: Right. That’s why we can have subcommittees. Halajian: That being the case, we can establish a subcommittee and send the memo to that subcommittee. Is that a better way to this, instead of sending it to Patrick. Hastrup: It’s hard for me to say what the best way to do it is, but that would be acceptable. And I could meet and speak very freely to the subcommittee. Halajian: So then the subcommittee, if they wanted to go to the city council with some specifics, that would be appropriate? Hastrup: Yes. Or the subcommittee could propose a motion. We have kind of an intersection of a policy issue regarding the development and the legal City of Fresno Page 29 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission issue of moving forward with the district. There are policy concerns about timing and how those things go together. I can say with absolute certainty that at least everyone I’ve talked to says that they support the district. They want the district to go forward. And they’re not happy about the timing either. Simmons: Could we request from staff a timeline of actions concerning the Old Armenian Town District, from the first time that this came to the commission over a decade ago when it was first established, and this commission’s actions including requests for information? Could we have a document of the timeline to attach to any communication with whoever is making these decisions, or not making these decisions? Hastrup: You can ask me to prepare a timeline and I’ll do that. Hatwig: A timeline would be great. If everybody’s on board with it being adopted and approved, could there be a six-month deadline and it automatically goes to Council, or something of that nature? Hastrup: There’s a time after the district is approved by the HPC that it’s supposed to go to council. That has passed already. Simmons: And what are the repercussions for that time being passed? Does it have to be re-surveyed? Do we have to start the process over again? Hastrup: No. Ultimately it has to be approved by Council, and so any interested person can try to push to council to get it through. I don’t know what HPC can do other than ask Council to move forward or get information about what is going on. I’m not aware of any legal repercussions that would hurt the ability of the district to get ultimately approved, but other than asking Council to go forward or getting more information, I don’t have anything else I can say at this time. But I can prepare a timeline. I don’t believe the district is in legal peril. Of course it still has to be approved by Council. Simmons: We are now coming to the point where we’re educating our third Council member on this district because the Councilperson representing City of Fresno Page 30 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission this area is usually not aware of its history and a timeline might be helpful for that. This is having a detrimental financial effect on the district, because of the Mills Act. Also cultural entities wanting to locate themselves in Old Armenian Town are making decisions to go elsewhere because it’s not designated. The longer it takes the more the people who would be significantly affected by the designation are dying. Every day. It would be nice to have someone who actually lived there be there when it is goes forward, but the odds are slipping away that that could happen. This is why we can’t have nice things. The lack of information to this commission I think is amazingly unethical on the part of someone in the city and no one seems to care. When we ask Council staff “Can you look into this?” they seem to get the same response that we do. Something’s happening somewhere we can’t quite seem to figure out. I don’t know how anyone functions with that level of information. It’s certainly not fair to the people of this commission and hasn’t been fair to the people who worked so hard to make Old Armenian Town come into existence. It’s kind of beyond the pale to me. Hastrup: My role is to provide attorney-client advice to different parts of the city which means that sometimes they are privileged from each other. The political issue of moving forward or not is just not something I’m involved in. I’m not advocating on behalf of the city for what position folks on staff or folks in the Council are taking. That’s a political choice on their part. What I am doing is just providing legal advice to the different folks, but some of it is confidential. But I certainly will convey those thoughts, and I encourage everyone who has thoughts that are in the political realm to voice them in the way they see fit as well. A subcommittee consisting of Chair Boyd, Commissioner Don Simmons and Commissioner Goldbeck with was approved 6-0 with a motion by Commissioner Halajian and a second by Chair Boyd. B. Staff 1. HPC Training Historic Preservation Specialist Laura Groves van Onna reached out to OHP regarding training, they are still working on their budget. Also reached out to CAMP (Commission Assistance and Mentoring Program), waiting to City of Fresno Page 31 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final August 27, 2018 Commission hear on pricing. Groves van Onna asked Commissioner for topics they are interested in learning about. Hatwig: Fresno has a very big potential for adaptive reuse. It’s something that is here and is going to happen so I think getting ourselves geared up for that would be extremely beneficial. Boyd: Something about mid-century modernism would also be helpful. We all know sort of the historic styles, but it would be great if we could learn a little bit more about what to look for as commissioners. Simmons: Some guidance on being more inclusive in the properties that we work with. How does a historic preservation commission be an inclusive commission? Inclusive designation, so that we don’t have an all-white historic registry. Groves van Onna: Thank you. C. General Public None. IX. NEXT MEETING: September 24, 2018, 6PM Conference Room A, City Hall. X. ADJOURNMENT Chair Boyd adjourned the meeting at 8:10 PM. City of Fresno Page 32