Historic Preservation Commission

City of Fresno City Hall 2600 Fresno Street Fresno, CA 93721 Meeting Minutes - Final Monday, October 22, 2018 6:00 PM Regular Meeting Fresno City Hall, Second Floor Room 2165N (Conference Room A) Historic Preservation Commission Chair Patrick Boyd Vice Chair Jason Hatwig, LEED, AP, BD+C Commissioners: Robin Goldbeck; Paul Halajian, AIA; Ron McNary; C. Kristina Roper, M.A.; Don Simmons, Ph.D. Staff: Daniel Zack, AICP Assistant Director; Laura van Onna, Historic Preservation Specialist; Amber Piona, Planner II, Recording Secretary; John Hastrup, Deputy City Attorney II Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission I. CALL TO ORDER AND ROLL CALL The meeting was called to order by Vice Chair Jason Hatwig at 6:10 PM. Commissioners Present: Robin Goldbeck, Paul Halajian, Jason Hatwig, Ron McNary, C. Kristina Roper, Don Simmons. Staff Present: Laura Groves van Onna, John Hastrup (CAO), Amber Piona, and Dan Zack. Present 6 - Vice Chair Jason Hatwig, Commissioner Don Simmons, Commissioner Ron McNary, Commissioner Robin Goldbeck, Commissioner Paul Halajian, and Commissioner C. Kristina Roper Absent 1 - Chair Patrick Boyd II. APPROVE MEETING MINUTES ID18-1272 Approve Minutes for September 24, 2018. Attachments: 2.HPC_Minutes_Sept_24_2018 The minutes for September 24, 2018 were approved 6-0 with a motion by Commissioner Roper and a second by Commissioner Goldbeck. III. APPROVE AGENDA The agenda with was approved 6-0 with a motion by Commissioner Simmons and a second by Commissioner Roper. IV. CONSENT CALENDAR None. V. CONTINUED MATTERS None. VI. COMMISSION ITEMS A. ID18-1273 CONSIDERATION OF APPROVAL OF REQUESTS BY City of Fresno Page 2 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission PROPERTY OWNERS TO ENTER INTO MILLS ACT HISTORICAL PROPERTY CONTRACTS PURSUANT TO FMC 12-1706: 1. The J. H. Waller Home (HP #302) Located at 306 N Park Avenue. 2. The Cowdrey Home (HP #033) Located at 330 N Park Avenue. 3. The C. J. Ryland Home (HP #308) Located at 573 E Terrace Avenue. 4. The Nis Johnson Home (HP #245; contributor to Wilson Island Historic District) Located at 601 E Pine Avenue. 5. The Frank Bradford Home (contributor to Wilson Island Historic District) Located at 630 E Home Avenue. 6. The Elia Home (HP #311) Located at 634-640 Van Ness Avenue. 7. The Albert & Susie Clark Home (contributor to Wilson Island Historic District) Located at 667 E Pine Avenue. 8. The Thomas & Sadie Elliott Home (HP #301) Located at 934 E Mildreda Avenue. 9. The Mary Matson Home (HP #255) Located at 1440 E Divisadero Street. 10. The Senator Ray W. & Marie Hays Home (HP #310) Located at 1608/1616 S Minnewawa Avenue. Attachments: 4.Mills Act Attachments Historic Preservation Specialist Laura Groves van Onna presented the proposed Mills Act contracts and workplans for the following properties: 1. The J.H Waller Home (HP #302) Located at 306 N Park Avenue. Site visit was conducted on September 17, 2018 with staff and Commissioner Roper. 2. The Cowdrey Home (HP #033) Located at 330 N Park Avenue. Site visit was conducted on September 28, 2018 with staff and Commissioner Halajian. 3. The C.J. Ryland Home (HP#308) Located at 573 E Terrace Avenue. Site City of Fresno Page 3 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission visit was conducted on September 19, 2018 with staff and Commissioner McNary. 4. The Nis Johnson Home (HP #245; contributor to Wilson Island Historic District) Located at 601 E Pine Avenue. Site visit was conducted on September 28, 2018 with staff and Commissioner Goldbeck. 5. The Frank Bradford Home (contributor to Wilson Island Historic District) Located at 630 E Home Avenue. Site visit was conducted on September 17, 2018 with staff and Commissioner Roper. 6. The Elia Home (HP #311) Located at 634-640 Van Ness Avenue. Site visit was conducted on September 19, 2018 with staff and Commissioner McNary. 7. The Albert & Susie Clark Home (contributor to Wilson Island Historic District) Located at 667 E Pine Avenue. Site visit was conducted on September 29, 2018 with staff and Commissioner Roper. 8. The Thomas & Sadie Elliott Home (HP #301) Located at 934 E Mildreda Avenue. Site visit was conducted on September 17, 2018 with staff and Commissioner Roper. 9. The Mary Matson Home (HP #255) Located at 1440 E Divisadero Street. Site visit was conducted on September 17, 2018 with staff and Commissioner Goldbeck. 10. The Senator Ray W. & Marie Hays Home (HP #310) Located at 1608/1616 S Minnewawa Avenue. Site visit was conducted on September 19, 2018 with staff and Commissioner McNary. Although some workplans had at time of submittal contained line items for interior rehabilitation, these items have been removed. Commissioner Hatwig proposed that for each property the commission would ask questions of staff, open the floor for public comment and then deliberate and vote. Deputy City Attorney John Hastrup proposed the Commission would City of Fresno Page 4 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission consider item 9 first. 9. The Mary Matson Home (HP #255) Commissioner Simmons recuses himself from consideration of item 9 at 6:28. 9. The Mary Matson Home (HP #255), 1440 E Divisadero Street. Commissioner Paul Halajian: Could staff please explain the decision to take interior renovations out of workplans so that we’re all on the same page with regard to that topic? Historic Preservation Specialist Laura Groves van Onna: We had a discussion about this at the previous HPC meeting after we had started doing our site visits. We noticed that some property owners had decided to include interior improvements. We did document them, however with guidance from the Commission we ultimately decided to omit them, at least from this year’s consideration the Mills Act because they are not readily visible from the public right-of-way. The Mills Act is an incentive program that is supposed to benefit the public. Commissioner Robin Goldbeck: What was the process? Did you then notify those applicants? Groves van Onna: When we were doing the site visits, we informed property owners that we only required them to list exterior features. We made it known that these [interior features] might not ultimately be included. Hatwig: Although it’s not on this particular project, I’ve noticed that landscaping is a recurring theme. I understand this when it’s being done to prevent damage to the structure. Landscaping can and cannot apply. Same thing with insulation. There is a fine line. Groves van Onna: Right. Insulation itself is not an exterior feature, the installation of it could have an effect on the property, which is why it’s included in the workplan. City of Fresno Page 5 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission Commissioner Kristina Roper: Speaking of landscaping, having just done a lecture on cultural landscapes, I think landscaping is very important to the integrity of many of these homes. Halajian: On that subject, I suspect that what was deemed appropriate at the time these homes were built with regards to landscape and how landscape should address the architecture is quite different than how we think about it today. Just because someone is going to put in a new front yard, is that good enough or does that landscape plan have to in some way recall the historic precedence that governed landscape architecture at the time the house was built? Groves van Onna: We don’t necessarily prevent a property owner from doing that. I don’t think we can enforce that as a project proposal. It’s certainly encouraged. Hatwig: I don’t have any further questions on this property, I can open it up to the public then we’ll come back and deliberate. Commissioner Ron McNary: Are we going to vote individually on these homes? Deputy City Attorney John Hastrup: Yes. No Public Comment The request to enter in a Mills Act Historical Property Contract for the Mary Matson Home (HP #255), 1440 E Divisadero Street, was approved 6:0 on a motion by Commissioner Goldbeck and a second by Commissioner McNary. Commissioner Simmons returns 6:33. 1. The J.H. Waller Home (HP#302) 1. The J.H Waller Home (HP #302), 306 N Park Avenue. City of Fresno Page 6 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission Roper: I particularly like the carriage house repair. Halajian: For clarification, A/C units are an interior thing, but the fact that it integrates with historic elements, is that why it’s on the list? Groves van Onna: Also the process of installing it could have an effect on exterior features. Hatwig: So the unit itself might not be that, but the actual taking care of the structure might? Groves van Onna: The process of installation needs to be done sensitively. Goldbeck: Is this an example of insulation needs to be installed for structural integrity? Roper: I believe so. Hatwig: Was it a foam/epoxy insulation? Groves van Onna: I believe the property owner wants to install a spray insulation. Commissioner Ron McNary: Will the A/C unit be visible from the street? Groves van Onna: That remains to be seen. Hatwig: That is an interesting question, is the A/C unit going to be placed in kind? That may be something we can ask the property owner, if they’re available. Groves van Onna: I believe it will be replaced where it currently is. No Public Comment City of Fresno Page 7 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission Hatwig: I’d like to know a little bit more about the A/C unit, but I’m sure that if they were going to move it to the front façade of the building, it would be required to come back to HPC. So, if the repair is in-kind I don’t think it’s a problem. Goldbeck: Kristina, was there evidence of termite damage? I notice it’s quite far down the list (Year 7). Groves van Onna: It’s recommended to have termite fumigation every 10 years. Goldbeck: So there is nothing urgent that would move that up. Okay. The request to enter in a Mills Act Historical Property Contract for the J.H Waller Home (HP #302), 306 N Park Avenue, was approved 6:0 on a motion by Commissioner Roper and a second by Commissioner Hatwig. 2. The Cowdrey Home (HP #033) 2. The Cowdrey Home (HP #033), 330 N Park Avenue. McNary: Is the chimney in need of repair now? Why is it on Year 2 instead of Year 1? Halajian: My recollection is that it’s not in structural jeopardy, it simply needs repointing. Public Comment Open James Sponsler (330 N Park Avenue): I think I may have left off a few details in my workplan. The exterior paint item will include scraping. There are portions of the architectural trim that have been replaced haphazardly and will need to be replaced in kind. I have noted, and it’s in your packets, is a picture of the house from 1905. I have found a couple of things between the site visit and today about the property. Cowdrey was specialized in English gardens and arbors. I haven’t found a source to show where he might have built any around the city. He was prominent enough to have the City of Fresno Page 8 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission fact that he was a noted landscape gardener in his 1925 obituary. At a minimum he did landscaping for neighbors, at the most, there was an English garden in Recreation Park east of the county hospital. And yes, the chimney is not structural emergency right now, but does need to be repointed. Groves van Onna: The arbor in the historic photograph was located on the south side of the property. Roper: So the items you mentioned are not included in detail in the workplan, but they are included in the projected cost? Sponsler: Yes, they are included in the estimate. Public Comment Closed The request to enter in a Mills Act Historical Property Contract for the Cowdrey Home (HP #033), 330 N Park Avenue, was approved 6:0 on a motion by Commissioner Halajian and a second by Commissioner Goldbeck. 3. The C.J. Ryland Home (HP#308) 3.The C.J. Ryland Home (HP#308), 573 E Terrace Avenue. Hatwig: I wanted to verify that the landscape items listed here are for the protection of the home, or that they have purpose? Roper: Or that they contribute to the integrity of the home. McNary: Yes, the camphor tree is very close to the house. They are justified in worrying about the foundation. At first I was skeptical, but when I went to look at it I agreed with them that the tree needs to come out. I’m surprised that the tree hasn’t damaged the foundation already because it is so huge. Hatwig: The cedar trees are? City of Fresno Page 9 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission McNary: The cedar tree is not indigenous and it’s not doing well. Halajian: Is it a brick foundation? McNary: I believe it is concrete. There is a basement that goes under the front patio which is unique. No Public Comment The request to enter in a Mills Act Historical Property Contract for the C.J. Ryland Home (HP#308), 573 E Terrace Avenue, was approved 6:0 on a motion by Commissioner McNary and a second by Commissioner Roper. 4. The Nis Johnson Home (HP #245; contributor to Wilson Island Historic District) 4.The Nis Johnson Home (HP #245; contributor to Wilson Island Historic District), 601 E Pine Avenue Hatwig: This one seemed very straightforward to me. I appreciate staff’s and commissioners’ hard work to help refine a good thought out workplan. Goldbeck: The trim under the front windows is the historic shape, and there is a poor redo along the side and that is one of the pieces that is going to be fixed under that item. Hatwig: That will be under the 2020 item? Goldbeck: No, the 2019. Hatwig: For the To Be Determined portion was there a value associated with that? Groves van Onna: No. There is no cost estimate for that. Roper: What is the process for when you don’t have a cost estimate? Does it come back for review? City of Fresno Page 10 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission Groves van Onna: Not necessarily. The purpose of requesting cost estimates is to get an idea of what property owners plan to invest in their properties. It’s not an exact calculation, and plans could change within the next ten years. It’s provided to help the approval process. Assistant Director Dan Zack: Last year we didn’t have a cost estimate break down. It’s not something that you have to have, but it does help in your evaluation. No Public Comment The request to enter in a Mills Act Historical Property Contract for the Nis Johnson Home (HP #245; contributor to Wilson Island Historic District), 601 E Pine Avenue was approved 6:0 on a motion by Commissioner Goldbeck and a second by Commissioner Hatwig. 5. The Frank Bradford Home (contributor to Wilson Island Historic District) 5. The Frank Bradford Home (contributor to Wilson Island Historic District), 630 E Home Avenue. Hatwig: This particular property does not have an HP number, but is a contributor to the Wilson Island district? Groves van Onna: That is correct. Halajian: The arbor has a roof on it? Isn’t an arbor usually an open trellis-type structure? What is this arbor? Groves van Onna: It’s an open roof, but it has spaced panels on top that need repair. Is there a specific term for the roof of an arbor, perhaps trellis? Halajian: If it is open with no solid cover that is considered a trellis. A trellis can be attached to a building. An arbor is usually an open free-standing structure that has trellis work on it, not a solid cover. In this case it does have a solid cover? City of Fresno Page 11 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission Groves van Onna: There are spaced panels, so it is not completely covered, that’s what I remember. Kristina, is that right? Roper: Yes. Halajian: It’s original and it needs repair? Okay, that’s what matters. McNary: This is a very nice piece of property I look at it every day when I walk out my front door. Public Comment Open Linda Gleason (630 E Home Avenue): This property was in my family. The landscape here is a significant part of this house. As the story goes Frank Bradford bought the property, and put in a rose garden in the empty lot next door. The owner, Mrs. Wilson, objected, so he went ahead and bought the property. This is a two lot property and it has a lot of, I’m guessing, close to original trees on it, a couple near the house and the pool; they are old lovely trees. You’ll see that a big piece of [the workplan] is related to the landscaping. The house will be featured in the Wilson Island centennial next year. Public Comment Closed The request to enter in a Mills Act Historical Property Contract for the Frank Bradford Home (contributor to Wilson Island Historic District), 630 E Home Avenue, was approved 6:0 on a motion by Commissioner Roper and a second by Commissioner Simmons. 6. The Elia Home (HP #311) 6.The Elia Home (HP #311), 634-640 Van Ness Avenue. Hatwig: We have had some history with this property recently, and I see representation in the room, which is great in case we have questions. McNary: This house is right downtown. surrounded by vacant lots. City of Fresno Page 12 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission Preferably, I would like for it to remain as a residential use, but because it’s flanked by vacant lots, in the middle of downtown, I can’t see any other way to make this property work than to turn it into a business. The owner is talking about putting a restaurant and bar. He is putting in the majority of the work right off the bat, just like the Rowell building. As long as he maintains it, I think it’s a great asset. No Public Comment The request to enter in a Mills Act Historical Property Contract for the Elia Home (HP #311), 634-640 Van Ness Avenue, was approved 5:0:1 on a motion by Commissioner Roper and a second by Commissioner McNary, Commissioner Halajian abstained. 7. The Albert & Susie Clark Home (contributor to Wilson Island Historic District) 7.The Albert & Susie Clark Home (contributor to Wilson Island Historic District), 667 E Pine Avenue. Hatwig: Who was the Commissioner who went on this site visit? Roper: That would be me. One thing that made a big impression on me is that a historic photograph shows it as white and it completely changed how it popped out on the road. It was just amazing. Presently it’s kind of beige. It’s on the corner so the rear view is visible from the street. Halajian: Does the solar installation fall under the kinds of things that we’re approving? Hatwig: That is a great question for staff. I don’t know what the State Interior Architect’s view is on solar and its incorporation into historic homes, specifically on clay tile. Groves van Onna: What’s interesting with this property is that there’s actually a central roof with a parapet that has those hipped clay tiles. The property owner intends to install the solar panels on the flat roof and it would not be visible from the public right-of-way. City of Fresno Page 13 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission Roper: It’s an ideal fit for solar in a historic home. Commissioner Don Simmons: Having gone through the process of having solar installed, and checking with the former City Manager and current City Manager as well as SHPO, solar doesn’t fall under the categories. Solar can be visible, and can be seen, solar is not covered in any of that. I was careful; it’s on my barn so it’s not visible from the street. Because another property in my neighborhood was putting solar where it was extremely visible, I made lots of calls to the City and to the State and they said “it’s solar, it’s exempt.” I have that in writing a letter from [former City Manager] Bruce Rudd, if that counts, now. Communities like Tower have had concerns about the visibility of solar, and have received the same response. Roper: So it won’t affect integrity. As I pointed out, because of the roof design this property is a great candidate. Simmons: My question is putting it on the list, because what is the public benefit of that. Groves van Onna: We also want to ensure that in the installation of solar that in the process of installing it there’s no damage to the roof or any other historic exterior feature. You’re welcome to ask the property owner for more information. Public Comment Open Slaten Van Saun (667 E Pine Avenue): Solar panel installation isn’t the focus of the workplan, but when you have a home that is 5,300 sqft. and you want to maintain the original integrity of the windows, etc., there are drafts and certain things that will happen because of heatloss. When you have the original radiators inside and you’re looking for ways to help counteract that cost of heating and cooling a home. The solar panels are advantageous, not visible but still value added to the home. The structural integrity to support that installation. I went to look at the roof, when I went to put in some bathroom vents, and it is pretty darn thick. That whole roof will need to be City of Fresno Page 14 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission replaced at some point, there are just layers and layers of extra roofing on there. Hatwig: I hadn’t thought about single pane windows and the thermal comfort of the home goes way down. We’re living in a different era where power is not cheap. Van Saun: We only have air conditioning upstairs. Entertaining is difficult, too; you can’t bring people in the summer it’s too warm, but when you get to the winter months it’s more favorable. We want to invest into the house and the neighborhood. There are more things. The gutters are built into the roof, it’s starting to fail and rust out. If you’re going to replace the A/C, first you will need to take the A/C off, then you will need to redo the entire roof, including the tiling, and then you can replace the gutter. It goes on and on. This is a historical photo of the house in white, which has a stark contrast to the taupe it is today. When you have a house this size you have 51 windows and, now who’s counting, 137 panes of glass that need to be replaced. I learned how to glaze and now I could be in the glazing Olympics; I’m about half way done. McNary: How big is the house? Van Saun: 5,300sqft. Halajian: I was skeptical about the solar panels, but you’re absolutely right. If you replace all the windows and insulate the house you’d be more than $30,000. I buy your argument. Simmons: I may be speaking out of my hat here, but I do know that they make solar tiles, and it’s probably ungodly expensive, but I do know that that is a product that’s available. Van Saun: Especially in terracotta color, so that you couldn’t tell the difference, that would be ideal. We bought the house in 2004; back in 2004 they added a texture to the house, so it went from original color to the taupe. It’s a significant investment, but we’d like to go back to a smooth finish. We City of Fresno Page 15 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission appreciate what you’re doing for us, and we look forward to our continued partnership. Public Comment Closed The request to enter in a Mills Act Historical Property Contract for the Albert & Susie Clark Home (contributor to Wilson Island Historic District), 667 E Pine Avenue, was approved 6:0 on a motion by Commissioner McNary and a second by Commissioner Roper. 8. The Thomas & Sadie Elliott Home (HP #301) 8.The Thomas & Sadie Elliott Home (HP #301), 934 E Mildreda Avenue Halajian: They’re going to do all of this for $15,000? That’s quite a deal! Simmons: I’m fascinated by the varying cost of exterior paint. I would like a list of these painters, because there is such wide variance. I know how much mine cost, so I am fascinated by the varying cost of painting, even including doing it yourself. Hatwig: I get why people sometimes stucco over homes, because the cost of scraping and painting is expensive. No Public Comment Simmons: This is a really big deal for this house, because it was vacant for so long and was moving toward demolition. It was a nuisance; there were so many calls for service to the police. Even during the restoration process the police spent a lot time moving people out of it. To be able to move from that point to this point is major, Steve Walters and Lowell Property Management is to be congratulated for their work they’ve done on that. This is a significant resource now that was almost gone. McNary: Thank you for saving it. The request to enter in a Mills Act Historical Property Contract for the City of Fresno Page 16 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission Thomas & Sadie Elliott Home (HP #301), 934 E Mildreda Avenue, was approved 6:0: on a motion by Commissioner Roper and a second by Commissioner Goldbeck. 10. The Senator Ray W. & Marie Hays Home (HP #310) 10.The Senator Ray W. & Marie Hays Home (HP #310), 1608/1616 S Minnewawa Avenue Hatwig: This is another home that we are very familiar with and that I have no comments on. Simmons: This is another exterior paint line item I am curious about. How are doing that? Hatwig: They didn’t say which side they were doing. Simmons: They are doing painting, cladding and architecture trim. Who is doing this? McNary: It’s a very nice home, but not very visible from the street. It’s going to need some paint very soon, it’s brick mostly if I remember correctly. It’s a wood shake roof. Public Comment Open David Davenport (6156 N Miter): I am just wondering how healthy that big tree is. McNary: It’s very healthy. I think it’s about 60 or 70 years old. It looks in good health, but of course it will need thinning. Davenport: Thank you. Public Comment Closed The request to enter in a Mills Act Historical Property Contract for the City of Fresno Page 17 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission Senator Ray W. & Marie Hays Home (HP #310), 1608/1616 S Minnewawa Avenue, was approved 6:0 on a motion by Commissioner McNary and a second by Commissioner Roper. B. ID18-1274 REVIEW AND COMMENT ON THE PRE-APPLICATION, CONSISTING OF CONCEPTUAL FENCING PLANS, FOR ST. JOHN’S CATHEDRAL CATHOLIC CHURCH (HISTORIC PROPERTY #086) AND ST. JOHN’S RECTORY (HISTORIC PROPERTY #087) LOCATED AT 2814 MARIPOSA STREET PURSUANT TO FMC 12-1606(a)(2) and (b)(23). Attachments: 6.St. John's Cathedral & Rectory Pre-App Attachments.pdf Historic Preservation Specialist Laura Groves van Onna presented the conceptual fencing plans pre-application for St. John’s Cathedral Catholic Church (HP#086) and St. John’s Rectory (HP#087). Primary concerns for staff regarding the conceptual proposal are the façade of the church and main entry, as they are character-defining features that are especially visible from the public right-of-way. Applicant is proposing seven-foot high tubular steel fencing with pickets that would be curved out toward the sidewalk to inhibit climbing, and pointed ends without decorative finials along the perimeter of the property along the property line, with gates. The owner representative is proposing to have a gate that opens and closes in front of the main entry of St. John’s, and only to have it open during certain hours, and have it closed particularly after dark. These conceptual plans are being proposed by the applicant for security purposes in response to target vandalism. Upon initial review, the Director of Development and Resource Management was open to considering a proposal in which fencing was only installed along the blue lines pictured there, leaving the main entry and façade open. The director also encouraged continuing the fencing that’s already present around the rear parking area. She would like the fencing pictured on the right to continue: full height wrought iron fencing separated by brick piers topped by orbs. Staff encourages discussion and pursuit of an optimal design for fencing that minimizes any potential adverse effects to the historic character of the property. Hatwig: This isn’t a motion item tonight, just conceptual review and comments. Protecting the structure is important, and it’s our duty to make City of Fresno Page 18 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission sure we can help moving forward. I didn’t have any particular issues with the layout; I do understand not going across the steps, but that also lends itself to having fires at the door and things like that. I don’t know how many issues have been on the doorstep, or if that was a one-time ordeal. The remaining parts I have no extra comments on. I like how there is some setback separation between the fencing and the landscape. There’s some landscape in front of the fencing, which is a deterrent in a way. Halajian: Does the existing fencing meet the current development code? Zack: Yes. The development code fencing regulations in downtown are a little different from the rest of the city because of the pedestrian-oriented nature of downtown. The main idea is that something like a parking lot can be fenced in with a full-height fence, within some design constraints. With a building, if the fence is full height it must fall behind the façade. You fence in the gaps so that the building and fence together secure the perimeter. If you want to do a fence at the sidewalk, you must keep it to the four-foot height to create separation from the public realm but not create that “jail” feeling. That’s what the downtown development code is going for. Halajian: If they accept the director’s comments about adding the piers, that would be in the plane of the fence that’s currently around the parking lot? It would just continue? Zack: The conversation with the director didn’t get into that level of detail. What they’re proposing is right at the back of the walk; they’re not proposing the piers, they’re just proposing the steel columns. If this group or the development director want to add conditions to approval to get a more appealing design, those are things you all could offer comments on. Halajian: My initial thought is that the wrought iron fence is just relentless and really detracts from the façade. I think the director is correct in adding the pier. I think it’s important that it’s in the plane of what’s there already and not a divergent addition. Hatwig: I believe the parking lot fence is set back just a little bit from the City of Fresno Page 19 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission sidewalk to allow some landscape. Goldbeck: I think I would also concur that we need relief from the wrought-iron fence but I don’t feel hard and fast that they require the exact same shape with the orb. If someone came up with posts with some historic reference to the building and blended with that I would be open to it. McNary: Are they planning to put a fence on the outside of the fence that’s there already? Zack: They’ve got columns going all the way down to Tulare Street, but there’s only one section that actually has fencing in it. The rest is all just open columns. Goldbeck: I don’t know if it existed at one time. Zack: I’m not sure. Simmons: I understand the necessity of the gates at the front entrance. We have a long history of defacing front doors of churches, and I think with this one being very prominent, it will just continue without a significant fence or gate. I hate that we have to do that, but I think that’s the only way to protect this. I appreciate that they included the hours that the gates would be open. Since they’re large and they can push back it doesn’t give the prison feel. But I think the only way to protect the front of this church is to have a really secure fence and gate, just like they had to do at Kearney Mansion and other properties around town. What they propose around front, it’s sad but I fully understand it. I looked at the back fencing last week, wondering if they will replace what’s there, because I think without some security factor they will continue to have the same problems. Columns make it easier to climb. Public Comment Open David Davenport: I wonder if you might consider speaking to the adjacent property owners across Mariposa to determine if maybe you could close Mariposa, so that the fence wouldn’t obscure at all the front of the cathedral City of Fresno Page 20 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission and rectory, but would instead be parallel to and continue all across R Street. Then the big gate could be at R Street. That could be opened when there were important services and when it was closed, there would be no obscuring of the front of the building with respect to photography, wedding receptions, and other things that might spill out of the church. Likewise, I’m wondering if the back fence doesn’t need to go all the way to Tulare, and could go along that walkway so that the parking space could continue to perhaps serve as spillover parking, as I’m sure it does, for CRMC right now during the day, Monday through Friday, and not have to be closed to the public by the existence of a gate. Just two suggestions. Thank you. Thomas Forse (representative for applicant): I am the facility manager for the diocese of Fresno and also the property manager of St. John’s Cathedral. The building is over 100 years old. Right now we’re in the stages of repainting the outside and preserving the stained glass. The proposal we got back from the director, from our perspective, doesn’t protect us at all. The most vulnerable point has always been the face of the church. It’s not the sides, although we’ve had doors kicked in and numerous windows broken into from different areas back through here that we give public access to. $60,000 in damage to marble statues that can’t be replaced. Forget the financial loss that we’ve suffered in the last ten years. Most people don’t know what a rectory is, that’s where the priest that’s assigned to that church actually resides. That’s his full-time home. Every morning, we’re continually cleaning up urine, feces, putting out fires on the doorsteps where the priest comes out right here. We’ve suffered numerous amounts of damage to the face of the cathedral, over and over and over again. We’ve taken more passive steps, security sweeps—that was first. They we took another passive step, we put up cameras. And we keep taking these steps, but the bottom line is nothing is working. We’ve had the police out there numerous times to remove people who are threatening our priest at knifepoint. We have restraining orders. This isn’t just a matter of preserving the conditions of the building; it’s about protecting the resident and our parishioners. Security’s not supposed to be convenient. It never is. But precedence has been set: the Meux Home. The fence was never needed until it was defaced. Once that was brought to somebody’s attention, it was put up. Somebody brought up Kearney Mansion. We’ve taken our share of City of Fresno Page 21 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission the blows and remained pretty passive about it, trying to forgive and forget. We had gasoline thrown on the front doors. If it hadn’t been caught by a homeless man who called from across the street and said “Hey, your building’s on fire,” the main part of the building could have been damaged to a point where, financially, there’s no replacing it. We cannot re-create what’s there. So the proposed fencing that we have some ideas about: there was a fence that ran there at one time. It got damaged in enough places that pieces were pulled out because the cathedral did not have the funds to fix it. It was an eyesore, so they got rid of it. Now that’s long before I got there. The existing fence right now meets code, it has the columns and the orbs on top. We’re merely going to tie into the existing fence. The fence is going to be a cocoa color to reflect the color of the handrails that already exist on the cathedral. The gates are going to be a 50-50 split and will open up all the way back to this point. The entire steps and handrails will be fully accessible. They’re cantilevered gates, so there’s no post; they’re all supported by the ends. Halajian: So if the gates are closed, in the event that there are people inside, how will they get in in an emergency? Forse: Two of the gates are manual, but the rest will be powered on timers. During business hours they open up and stay that way. Halajian: The timer has nothing to do with the building code; if there’s somebody in that building who’s not supposed to be in that building, and there’s an emergency and they need to get out, and the gates are locked because of the timer, how does somebody get out? They have to be able to get to the street. There are gates that will allow somebody to get out, manually, without a timer? Forse: Oh, yes. This access way right here. Halajian: And it will have an emergency pushbar? Forse: Yes. Now, as the gentleman earlier was talking about, we actually own the adjacent property on the other side of the street. That was another City of Fresno Page 22 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission proposal, to take the fence across the street, get the City to go ahead and give us this property and actually rebuild that entire thing into a courtyard for different events. We would like to be able to close the parking lot, on major holidays our parking lot is a free for all. Halajian: What happens if the fence does not stop the vandalism? Forse: The curved fence makes it hard to lob things over. We’ve found that it works to prevent a majority of potential vandals. Simmons: How much damage has been done? Forse: Six incidents in the past 18 months. We’re considering turning the statue on the corner of R and Mariposa around to face the church. The cathedral is wide open. If you want to walk by, you can see that we’re doing restoration work right now. We’re making an investment in this property. Thank you for your time. I appreciate it. Public Comment Closed Hatwig: I think my comments are that we should obviously do what we can to help protect the property. I do like the closure of the street idea, I know that’s— Zack: Not at all feasible. Forse: It is, only in the fact that the ally on the other side needs access. So a little re-routing… we also own the vacant lot next to that. We actually did a traffic plan to use that alley if we decide to go that route, to block of Mariposa from R to S streets. Zack: With all due respect, it’s not going to happen. Simmons: If you’ve ever been in that neighborhood on a feast day, the streets are blocked. They are full of people and you can’t drive through on Mariposa on feast days and immediately after the big mass. The street is City of Fresno Page 23 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission full. That’s why I was intrigued by the proposal, because there’s so many people in the street anyway. And vendors come and set up along Mariposa Street with food and objects for whatever feast day it is. You can get a good taco on Sunday at the corner of Mariposa and R. Forse: We actually own the property on the other side of Mariposa everything along both sides. So really, the only issue there is going to be a travel plan for businesses that exit out of that alley and that would be to turn it around and make it a one-way. It’s a possibility. It was going to be a way to kill two birds with one stone, if we’re going to go ahead and build this big fence why not just get all the property and wrap it into one? Simmons: The Christian education building across the street doesn’t experience the same kind of vandalism? Forse: The Hall? It’s mixed. Most people don’t associate that with the church. We actually had some people come who wanted to convert that building into condos, because it’s a beautiful building. We had to explain that it’s part of the cathedral. Simmons: That building came before this commission, not very long ago, to add the handicapped accessibility to the side of the building. We took the building through the process. Hatwig: I think my only problem really is R Street, as it gets toward the corner, keeping a little bit of landscape and having the fencing set back a little bit. As it gets towards the main corner, obviously you don’t have a whole lot of space to work with there. Forse: As far as cutting that corner, we can cut short of it. We’ve looked at a couple different designs; instead of coming into a right angle we could soften it, round the fence out. Give us an idea of something that’s possible that will satisfy everybody. Goldbeck: I like your idea of turning the statue the other direction and making a little prayer courtyard there, because that will open that area up. City of Fresno Page 24 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission Forse: We’re going to completely re-landscape that area and put benches in. Right now there’s not a lot of places to sit outside the interior of the cathedral. I think it’s a little more inviting. Halajian: For me the issue is the fence itself. I think the wrought iron fence alone, that’s fine for industrial parks. But I don’t think it really connotes the importance of this building. I understand there’s costs associated with the brick piers, but I think that’s needed to make this fence look as though it belongs to this valuable property and not just a utilitarian security measure, which is what it is. Perhaps there’s a way to introduce the brick pier in a way that’s palatable to the church. Maybe we don’t have to run it all the way down. Maybe it’s just concentrated here at the front. But to not to that, to just have a metal wrought-iron fence, I really think that is going to devalue the quality of this building. Goldbeck: I agree. I think something more in tune with the church could be done at the front, and maybe it turns up R Street a bit and has a stopping place. And then maybe it does look a little more like what encloses the parking lot. Forse: This is one of the entrances, right here. There’s another entrance right down from that. That leads into the basement, and that door, which we’re guessing is 150 years old. Kicked right off the hinges, to the point where it can’t be repaired. We’ve actually put another door there. So the brunt of the attacks seems to come at the face of the rectory or the face of the cathedral. On R Street, facing into traffic, and the back of the cathedral, we’ve had fencing that we put up. We’ve had people try to scale it. If someone really wants in there, it’s going to happen. But we’re really trying to deter that. Any recommendations that any of you have, feel free to throw out even the wildest idea. I like the idea with the columns, obviously that is some additional cost, I can’t agree to something like that without approval. The column idea is a possibility; if we’re going to do that we’re probably going to want to do electrical, and go ahead and put some lighting in. The globes are on top, we might as well go ahead and make those lights, LEDs. That’s definitely an idea. Anybody have anything else? City of Fresno Page 25 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission Goldbeck: I would just like to ask Laura and Dan, what is the process? If they come up with a concrete design, will that come back before the commission? Zack: Yes, it will come back to you. Roper: Would it be useful to have a subgroup of this commission work with the diocese, periodically, to develop this? Zack: We don’t typically do that for a project of this size, but if that’s what you all want to do, it’s possible. I think there’s been some direction here already and Staff is ready and willing to continue to work with them too. If you want to take it further than just your pre-application comments here tonight, that’s up to you. Goldbeck: I’d just like to ask the applicant, what is your time frame? Forse: If I could have done it yesterday I would have. We’ve been given the green light to break ground as soon as possible. The only thing preventing us from starting as soon as we get the variance is that we have to work around weddings and funerals. We’re breaking construction into four phases, the face will get done first so that we can get back to business and the gates will be open the entire time. Hatwig: Down R Street, having a setback with landscape will help visually make the fence more appealing. As you work towards the corner and the main entry having incorporation of the brick columns will tie it in a little bit. Am I right in that summary? At the front of the façade, the primary entry, some brickwork will be a focus point and on the sides we will have offset with some landscaping. Goldbeck: Along with that, I would like to see something as secure as decorative can be made, at the front of the church. It can be less decorative as we start moving down R Street. City of Fresno Page 26 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission Forse: We could do some planting, to soften up at least R Street. Goldbeck: I think opening with even just a bit of grass is a buffer. Hatwig: Yes. Just some sort of a landscape buffer. Forse: Unfortunately, when we get to face we butt right up against the sidewalk. There’s almost no wiggle room to get around the handicapped ramp. Goldbeck: Right. Forse: Thank you all for giving me the opportunity to speak to you, I really appreciate it. If you have any questions, Laura has all my contact information. Any other photos you’d like, or proposals on different fencing, I’ll provide whatever other information you need to help us move this forward. Item Closed. C. ID18-1275 STAFF PRESENTATION FOR CALIFORNIA MERCI TRAIN BOXCAR (HERITAGE PROPERTY #025) LOCATED AT 3509 N FIRST STREET. Historic Preservation Specialist Laura Groves van Onna and Deputy City Attorney John Hastrup presented on the California Merci Train Boxcar (Heritage Property #025). This property was before the Commission in 2016 when the property owner was trying to get help to protect it. The caretaker, The Grand du California had a meeting this past weekend at which the members voted to take an offer from the Palm Springs Air Museum to relocate the California Merci Train Boxcar to the museum free of charge, to be stored for display there. A correspondent representing the Grand, Joe Donovan, has written to the City, stating that the boxcar was not legitimately listed as a heritage property. At the time of the designation of the boxcar two representatives, Mildred Wright-Pearson and a Mr. Schwartz were present and supported the designation. Staff hopes everyone involved can come up with the best process for preserving this resource. City of Fresno Page 27 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission Hatwig: This is an example where the boxcar is the unit that is preserved and not the ground that it’s on. Mildred Wright-Pearson (25317 W Skaggs Ave, Tranquility, CA): This is breaking my heart but I have no recourse, and the Grand wants to move it to Palm Springs. We have attempted to get the cover put up on several different occasions. I’ve contacted all kinds of construction companies. We even had an article in the paper. The boxcar will be going to Palm Springs, and I believe they’re going to come get it sometime in November. It’s free for them, because they have the money to move it down there. Where it sits, anybody can come and see it at any time. When they put it in the museum at Palm Springs, you’re going to have to pay to come in and see it, and it’s only going to be available for certain hours. There was a vote taken yesterday, at our meeting, and it was determined that we would be moving it. This boxcar is one of a kind, it was the only one that was given to us from France; each state got one. It’s been [at its current location] since 2004 and we’ve been desperately trying to get it covered. The guy that painted it is here today; we refurbished it, he hand-painted all of those plaques. And now it’s going to go. Hatwig: This was given to the state of California, or the city of Fresno? Wright-Pearson: It is a boxcar that was given to the state of California, but it was determined that Fresno would be the place that it was maintained. It was in Roeding Park first. Hatwig: What year did that occur? Wright-Pearson: 1952. Hastrup: I feel that I need to make a legal comment, we have new information. In 2016 the thought was that making it a heritage property would uncover some funds to help maintenance. From a legal standpoint, the issue would be de-designating the property, but my personal view is that, if the owner wants to undo a designation, the commission generally City of Fresno Page 28 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission should adhere to their wishes. The boxcar originally was in Long Beach, and then Fresno took it in 1952. It sat in Roeding Park until 2004. Today we uncovered the agreement with the Grand du California; my understanding is that they’d been taking the position that they “own” it and can do whatever they want with it. I’ve looked at the documents, and am starting to question whether they have the legal right to move it at all. We have an agreement from 2004 with the City that states that the Grand gave us $10 and they agreed to maintain it and keep it on public display in that location. It states that there’s a reversionary right, should the Grand fail to do that, in section 4 of the agreement, it says that the City may, at its option, terminate this agreement. So we could just let them take it, or give written notice to the Grand that we’re going to exercise our reversionary right, in which case the City would take it back. Now, I don’t know if that’s HPC’s call; I need to look into that. But I would say at the very least we’re probably going to be sending out a letter the them, saying not to move it right now, or they may be in violation of the reversionary right. I’m not saying that the City is going to exercise that, that’s a political decision. But I do want to make very clear to the Grand du California that they do not own it, in the sense that they can just move it. That’s my understanding, and it’s not just in the agreement. They sent a confirming letter on July 20th 2004, stating that they acknowledge a failure of the condition, including keeping it on public display there, would be a cause for transfer back to the City. So they’re a little bit confused, and maybe they hadn’t noticed that. We’re going to have to make some decisions politically; not me, I’m just a lawyer, but the City. And maybe the City will kick it over to HPC because it’s a historic resource, but they might also say it’s a contractual matter. It would be the City Manager that gets to decide what they want to do. Have we mentioned these contracts to the Grand du California? Groves Van Onna: Yes. Hastrup: I hope they’re on notice; don’t just move this in November without getting some sort of opinion from us. The City may decide that it’s nice to have it in the air museum, but if the City so chooses we do have the right to prevent this move. City of Fresno Page 29 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission Roper: Hasn’t this body already stated their position by designating it as a historic property? Hastrup: I don’t know how to square that, legally speaking. I don’t really understand the heritage designation myself; I can’t wrap my head around what it legally means. I know what this contract means; I think the heritage designation may be kind of a red herring. Halajian: Are you saying the heritage designation as it applies to this particular artifact or in any case? Hastrup: Oh, as it applies to this artifact! Because we already had a contractual reversion. I think the theory behind the designation is that it would open up funding streams, but I don’t think it was ever intended to be something we would use against them. But the 2004 agreement absolutely was meant to do so. In other words, the heritage designation was purely a carrot, this is a stick. I’m not sure what we’re going to do. It’s not my decision, but I’ve alerted the City Attorney and they’re going to talk to the City Manager. I think that it’s the City Manager’s call. The City Manager might kick it to the Commission. Roper: The contract is with the City, right? Hastrup: Yes. But it’s dealing with a historic resource. It may very well be that they would seek the Commission’s recommendation. Halajian: Just so I understand, the Grand du California, their position is “Let’s move it.” [to applicant] You personally want it to stay, but the organization wants to move it, is that correct? Wright-Pearson: Yes. There are several of us that want it to say. But I can’t go against the Grand, I’m part of the Grand. I was here before, because we were trying to get it designated as a historical monument. Laura’s predecessor said that would help us getting some of the leeway with getting permits on getting it covered. City of Fresno Page 30 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission Roper: We already designated it. That is our role, to give our opinions, and designation is part and parcel of it. Groves Van Onna: And even if this agreement isn’t in place, a heritage property, if a substantial alteration is being proposed, such as relocation, that would have to come before the HPC. Hastrup: What I’m saying is that we have a contract that says it’s not theirs if they move it. Or at least we have the option of exercising our reversion right if it’s moved. Groves Van Onna: We wanted to at least bring this to your attention and have an open discussion about it. Since your meeting happened yesterday, we just wanted to present to you what we know. Roper: It seems like this is in the City Manager’s hand. We can’t make a call for reversion. Hastrup: I’m hesitant about making too much of a recommendation at this point, other than to say that I think it’s pretty clear that they don’t have the right to unilaterally move it. Public Comment Open David Davenport: Unfortunately this appears adversarial, but we’re not at all angry with each other. We’re just heartbroken. I want to point out a couple of things. First of all, I taught history at Fresno City College for 14 years and that was all of the 90s and up to 2003. These were the classic boxcars used by the French Ministry of Transportation to move American soldiers from the landing point at Brest to the front. It was called a 40 and 8 because 40 soldiers, with their equipment, stood up in that thing, or eight fully-loaded horses were squeezed into this thing. I regularly took my classes to the boxcar and use it as an educational resource. I would have them stand within the dimensions of the boxcar with backpacks on and take roll to give them an idea of what it would have been like to stand in these cars for seven hours to the front. Many of my students went on to become teachers, City of Fresno Page 31 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission and I hope they would do something similar. They could tell their students where they could see one of those boxcars to develop greater appreciation for what World War I was about and the problems of logistics involved in getting men to the front. It’s an important educational resource, and for that reason I don’t think we want it to go anywhere, except someplace else in Fresno. I would propose to this group that in Staff recommendations, that it’s just in the last couple of years that the Fresno Fair has dedicated space at the fair as a local historical museum. But I’ve also been working another angle. I’m interested in cemeteries, enough so that I promised Charlie Waters that in the aftermath of his successfully getting the California Veteran’s Home out there at California and Marks, I would carry the torch on his behalf to get a Central California Veteran’s Cemetery operated by the state of California, because there’s one way up in Shasta and one to the far South. I’ve been in discussion with the state Department of Veterans’ Affairs about trying to get a cemetery at Fresno across the road from the Veterans’ Home, and if perchance the county museum at the Fresno Fair wouldn’t want to keep this boxcar forever, this could then become an item of interest in the visitors’ center for a new veterans’ cemetery in Fresno. My projection is, I think I can get this done by 2035. In any of these cases, whether it’s at the Fresno Fair or the Veteran’s Cemetery, it’ll still be a resource for educators. If the boxcar goes down to Palm Springs it’s lost to us. That’s all I have to say. Al Nyitray (428 N Ferger Ave): I’m the painter; I work at Another Coat of Paint and Wallcovering. I would like it to stay in Fresno, so that people can see my work. I tell people I’m kind of new at this, I’ve only been painting for 39 years. I painted that inside of Sequoia Brewery. Where you see the wood, it’s not wood. It’s metal. I made the textures and the glaze. I painted the Tower Theater for seven years, inside and out. The Meat Market and Bobby Salizar’s doors. I do houses inside and out, and furniture. I use the best, Dunn-Edwards paint. That paint job should last at least a decade, but if it’s inside it’ll last longer. The heat and cold will make the wood go back and forth. It took me two weeks to paint the boxcar itself. Those plaques, they gave them to me, they were in bad shape. And you can’t just sand them smooth because of the design. It took me about three months to do those plaques. Dunn-Edwards exterior gloss paint, two to three coats of varnish. City of Fresno Page 32 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission I’d like to see it stay. I went to the fair, and I think it would be nice there. The American Legion has stuff from the war that’s in there already. Alright, thank you. Goldbeck: I just have a question. How did it come about that the Palm Springs group wanted this? Do you know that? Groves Van Onna: I believe the Grand du California was reaching out to people. Wright-Pearson: Yes, they were reaching out. There was a train depot or something, they didn’t want it. Palm Springs heard about it and said that they wanted it. They’ve already been up there to look at it and see what would be needed to move it. This was last month that they came up; they told me they would be taking it by the end of the year, but I learned later on this weekend that they’re supposed to come sometime in November. They’re waiting to see what’s going to happen right now to see what’s going to happen with the boxcar because of the controversy. Palm Springs has looked into it and they’re willing to pay everything to move it. Public Comment Closed Item Closed. VII. CHAIRPERSON'S REPORT None. VIII. UNSCHEDULED ITEMS None. A. Members of the Commissioin None. B. Staff City of Fresno Page 33 Historic Preservation Meeting Minutes - Final October 22, 2018 Commission None. C. General Public None. IX. NEXT MEETING: November 26, 2018, 6PM Conference Room A, City Hall. X. ADJOURNMENT Vice Chair Hatwig adjourned the meeting at 8:33 PM. City of Fresno Page 34