Police, Judicial, Legal Committee

TOWN OF MOUNT PLEASANT, SOUTH CAROLINA POLICE, JUDICIAL & LEGAL COMMITTEE Tuesday, September 5, 2017 Municipal Complex, Committee Meeting Room, 3rd Floor Minutes Members Present: Mayor Linda Page, Chair, Mark Smith, Bob Brimmer, Elton Carrier Staff Present: Eric DeMoura, Levica Kirvin, Chief Ritchie Also Present: David Pagliarini, Corporation Counsel Mayor Page called the meeting to order at 11:00am. 1. Approval of Minutes from the July 31, 2017 meeting Mayor Page asked that the minutes from July 31, 2017 meeting be approved. Mr. Smith made the motion for approval; seconded by Mr. Carrier. Motion carried unanimously. 2. Public Comments None 3. Police matters a. Employee years of service recognition Chief Ritchie stated that he would like to recognize Kyle Alexander for his five years of longevity. He added that he started in patrol and has worked his way to the Traffic Unit. He stated that those who know traffic in Mount Pleasant know that makes him a busy man and he is out working constantly to keep the roads safe and traffic moving. Chief Ritchie stated that what is also special about today is that when an officer is hired and gets off initial training the officers are given the  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 2 of 41 opportunity to choose a career path and in Officer Alexander’s five-year period he has received extra training to become an expert in his field and he has reached all three years of his incentives by completing this extra training. Chief Ritchie stated that not only will he be recognized for five years of service, but also for being promoted to rank of Senior Police Officer. Mayor Page stated that she wanted to thank Officer Alexander for his investment in the community and his service to the citizens who live here. She added congratulations for his recognition. b. Consideration of Memorandum of Understanding between the Town of Mount Pleasant and the Charleston County School District related to School Resource Officers Chief Ritchie stated that this comes up every year with the new school year starting and it is an agreement that the Town will provide a certain number of SRO’s that we cover and the School District funds the one for Cario and two for Wando High School and the Town covers the others. He added that this memorandum carries us through the school year and outlines what we do in our repayment for the positions that the School District is covering. Mayor Page asked how many officers are in the schools and the duties that they perform in those schools. Chief Ritchie stated that all the middle schools have an SRO assigned that is primarily for that school and that school only so that they get to know the students. He added that the high school itself has three SROs and a Sergeant which means a supervisor is in the High School at any given time and then there is a second sergeant who is in the SRO program and responsible for the Middle and Elementary schools. He added that although we do not have an officer specifically assigned to the Elementary schools he  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 3 of 41 makes the rounds to all those schools and not to mention our patrol officers every day that they are on duty they stop by and do walk throughs and have lunch with the kids so there is a very good presence in all the schools. Mr. Smith stated he would like to give a shout out to those school resource officers as a parent of a Senior now and all three of his boys have gone through public schools and all have talked about and enjoyed their relationship with the officers. He thanked the Mayor and council members for continually supporting this effort and stated he would be happy to make a motion to renew the contract. Mr. Smith made a motion to renew the Memorandum of Understanding between the Town of Mount Pleasant and the Charleston County School District. Mr. Carrier seconded the motion. All present were in favor. Mayor Page stated that her children still talk about their Resource Officers and how impressed they were with them. c. Consideration of Memorandum of Understanding between the Town of Mount Pleasant and the South Carolina Department of Mental Health Chief Ritchie stated that he had brought this up several months ago, that the Department was being considered for part of a grant with the Charleston County Mental Health to receive a mental health practitioner to be assigned directly to the police department. He added that we have received that grant and as a result the Department is getting that professional that will be assigned directly to our Agency. Chief Ritchie stated that we are in the process right now of doing the interviews with Charleston County Mental Health to get the right fit for us and that person will assist our Victim’s Advocates in everything from Domestic Violence, suicide prevention and opioid addiction that we are  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 4 of 41 dealing with right now. He added that this person will be imbedded with us and working in our building and assigned to this police department. Chief Ritchie stated that this MOU just outlines what they are going to do for the Agency and for our citizens and of course how they will be paid for through the grant. Mayor Page stated that was exciting news as the mental health issues that this country faces needs for the Town to be proactive and feels it is proactive of him to bring this forward and she is excited for the results. Mr. Brimmer asked what was the length of time for the grant. Chief Ritchie stated that he believes it is a three-year grant like most grants are and is renewable after each year which gives the opportunity to renew it. He added if future grant funding is not available hopefully Charleston County Mental Health will be working with us to look for other funding sources. Mr. Brimmer asked if part of the grant was also training for staff and officers. Chief Ritchie stated that it is. Mr. Smith stated that he had two shout-outs. One, was that the Lt. Governor came and visited the police department and brought with him two County Sheriff’s from Oconee County and Anderson County and it was great opportunity to showcase the many things that Mount Pleasant is doing including the Chief’s specific leadership on the Opioid epidemic that we are facing statewide. He added that the Lt. Governor was impressed and so much information was collaborated at that event that there will be a piece of legislation introduced to the floor as a direct result of that collaborated effort.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 5 of 41 Mr. Smith stated that was a direct result of the great work that Chief Ritchie is doing and he thanked him for his work. Mayor Page stated that this would also go to the South Carolina Association of Mayors. She added that she met with the Municipal Association after that meeting and they were very impressed. Mayor Page asked Chief Ritchie to share the amount opiates that were re- captured as she was amazed with the number. Chief Ritchie stated that back in April Mount Pleasant received a grant and with that received at 24 hour/7 day a week/365 day take back box that is located in the lobby of the Police Department. Chief Ritchie stated that since the program began there has been over 160 lbs. of unused, unwanted, unneeded medication recovered. He added that if you think about the size of pill and how many that would take to make up 160 lbs. and what is unique about Mount Pleasant is that we have our own incinerator where other agencies are facing the issue of what to do with the drugs once they are recovered. Chief Ritchie stated that once the drugs are removed from the box and collected we can use our own incinerator here and can destroy the drugs ourselves so they do not have to go off-site once they are received. Mayor Page stated that she was impressed and like she said she took it to the Municipal Association for discussion because many of Mount Pleasant’s rural neighbors do not have the advantage that the Town has and one high school or small child that gets an unused prescription there is no telling where that would go and then of course we would need the mental health understanding. Mr. Brimmer asked where exactly the box was located.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 6 of 41 Chief Ritchie stated that it is located in the lobby of the Police Department right here in Town Hall and again it has 24 hour a day availability for anyone who needs to come in and drop off. Mayor Page stated that Martine was here with her department and asked if she had done PSAs on this. Ms. Wolfe-Miller replied yes there were PSAs. Mr. Smith made the motion to move forward with the consideration of the Memorandum of Understanding between the Town of Mount Pleasant and the South Carolina Department of Mental Health as presented. Mr. Brimmer seconded the motion. All present were in favor. 4. Judicial matters No agenda items Mr. Brimmer stated that he noticed on the website that there is an upcoming meeting on expungement and that expungement is one of those things that is not sexy but sure is important to a lot of people who have histories of arrest in terms of scholarships and job impacts. He added that he does want to encourage folks to take advantage of this if they are in the situation because even misdemeanor offenses can cause problems later on and so many young people make those mistakes and do not realize the long- lasting impact. Mr. Brimmer thanked Ms. Kirvin for putting this meeting together and putting it out there as he feels it will give many people opportunities they would not otherwise have. Mayor Page also thanked Ms. Kirvin. 5. Legal matters  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 7 of 41 a. Discuss Forms of Government and Methods of Election for Town Council Members Mr. DeMoura introduced Scott Slatton who is the Legislative and Policy Advocate at the Municipal Association of South Carolina. He added that he has been working in and is a friend of local governments in South Carolina and helping us all to move forward together for a long time. Mr. DeMoura stated that it was an honor for the Committee to have him here. Mr. Slatton stated that he was the Legislative and Public Policy Advocate at the Municipal Association which means he wears a variety of hats and the most prominent part is as a lobbyist for the Town. Mr. Slatton stated he was going to talk today about the forms of Municipal Government here in South Carolina. He added that he would like to be stopped with any questions as he likes to deal with them as he goes rather than hold them until the end. Mr. Slatton stated he wanted to begin with the establishment of the forms of Government in South Carolina. He stated the Local Government Act of 1975 which is also the Home Rule Act established the three Municipal forms of Government in South Carolina and prior to that despite the fact that we were a Home Rule State, everyone did what they wanted at the Municipal level. He added that County Governments did not exist for the most part prior to the Local Government Act so County Governments were established but also the Municipal forms of Government were established so that there was some uniformity across the State. He added that basically what happened is that residents were asked to vote on the form that most closely resembled what you had at the time even though it may not have been exactly what you have in law you were told to pick the closest one or a different one if you wanted to.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 8 of 41 Mr. Slatton stated that what the Home Rule Act does, and as everyone who works in the General Assembly knows, is that Municipal Governments are units of State Government and we are always subjugated to the whims of the General Assembly and that was further reinforced through the Local Government Act. Mr. Slatton stated that there were two areas of responsibility in Municipal Court Government regardless of the form that you adopt. He added that policy always equals Council and the Council is the policy making body in all three forms of Government. He added that the Council sets the policy and then it is up to the Administration to set up how those policies are executed and typically means “staff”. He added that “staff” equals Administration and Operations Policy always means Council, the what, why, and how, when and where is the Administration. He added that the policy equals Council in all three forms. Mr. Slatton stated that what then distinguishes the three forms of Government is the determination as to who is responsible ultimately for executing the policies that the Council adopts. He added the Legislative function, the policy making function always remains with the Council. Mr. Slatton stated that who executes these policies and who the Chief Administrative officer is differs among the three forms of government. He added he will talk about who each of those individuals are as he moves forward. Mr. Slatton stated that some general ideas and information about Municipal Government in South Carolina and stated that there are 271 Cities and Towns, and Municipalities, with the successful incorporation of the Town of Van Wyck in Lancaster County with a population of about 400 and their council elections are coming up in November. He added there is also a pending application from the would-be town of Indian Land which is right next door.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 9 of 41 Mr. Slatton stated that most Cities and Towns are small across the State and of the 271, 208 have a population of 5,000 or less and obviously, they vary in their complexity. Mr. Slatton stated that there are three forms of Municipal Government in South Carolina: The Mayor/Council form (142 cities & towns use) which is known as the “Strong Mayor” form, The Council form (97 Cities & Towns use) which Mount Pleasant uses, The Council/Manager form (32 cities & Towns use) of which 11 of the 16 largest cities in the State use this form. He added that many large cities across the United States use it, most notably Charlotte, NC which would be the closest to us. Mr. Slatton stated that the Mayor/Council form is the most used and is called the “Strong Mayor” because of the duel roll that the Mayor holds/performs. He added that the Mayor is not only the Chief Administrative Officer but also a member of the legislative body and therefore gets a vote on Council. He added that unless a City or Town under its local rules of procedure puts it in law a Mayor always votes. Mr. Slatton stated that what he calls the myth of the Mayor voting only to break a tie is just that it is not in State law and is not something that is required so the Mayor is the administrative officer and a legislator as well and that is where the “Strong Mayor” comes from. Mr. Slatton stated that the Council serves as the legislative policy equals policy and the Council in the Mayor/Council form appoints the City Attorney, the Judge and the Municipal Clerk. He added that the Council approves the annual budget or modifies the annual budget or adopts the annual budget that the Mayor presents and he will address that later. Mr. Slatton stated that the Mayor is the presiding officer in the Mayor/Council form and this is unlike the other two where the Mayor presides by tradition. He added that the gavel cannot be taken away from  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 10 of 41 the Mayor in the Mayor/Council form of Government unlike the other two forms that he will discuss later. Mr. Slatton stated that the Mayor serves as a Chief Administrator Officer and these are the primary responsibilities that the Mayor has which are to prepare and administer the budget and make financial reports to the Council and to oversee the City’s departments and the day to day operations. He added that the Mayor in the Mayor/Council form is responsible for all hiring, firing and discipline decisions of Municipal employees with the exception of the three that were just mentioned, the Attorney, Judge and Clerk. Mr. Slatton stated that in the Mayor/Council form the Mayor has the unilateral authority to hire and fire. Mr. Slatton stated that he would now talk about the budget. The Mayor’s budget is presented to Council and the Mayor is responsible under law to prepare a budget but once that budget is prepared and presented to the Council it is up to the Council to decide what to do with it. He stated that Council can adopt the budget, reject the budget, can modify the budget, can do whatever it sees fit and the Mayor’s only responsibility is to prepare a budget and present it to the Council. Mr. Slatton stated that the Mayor’s powers continue as they vote as a member of Council, presides over meetings, makes financial reports, reports to Council on the operation of departments. He added that with the Council’s approval the Mayor may hire an Administrator to assist in the execution of the Mayor’s duties. He added the Administrator cannot act on his/her own as the administrator helps and assists the Mayor to execute the policies of the council. He added for instance when a contract is signed, it is the Mayor who will sign and not the Administrator. Mr. Slatton stated that the Administrator cannot be given the statutory responsibilities that the Mayor has in the Mayor/Council as an example;  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 11 of 41 because the law says the Mayor presides over council the mayor cannot give that responsibility to the administrator. He added that the administrator could not provide over council, not that they would but that is just to illustrate the point. Mr. Slatton stated that the Mayor ensures the faithful execution of laws. Mr. Brimmer asked how many municipalities have this form and have full time Mayors as opposed to part time. Mr. Slatton stated that he did not know but obviously the two most prominent examples in this area are Charleston and North Charleston. He added that he is not aware of, aside from, those two he cannot think of any full-time Mayors who are paid salaries in the Mayor/Council form of government. He added that he is not saying there are not any but he cannot think of any off the top of his head and he volunteered to find out. Mr. Slatton stated he would now talk about the Council form and stated that 96 of the 271 cities and towns use it and call it the “Weak Mayor” because the Mayor has no statutory authority as the Mayor and the Mayor/Council form does. He added that there is no separation of powers with regard to the executive and the legislative functions in the Council form. Mr. Slatton stated that the Council is the most legal of the three in that it is the Council who responsible as a body for all decisions, policy making and execution. He added that it is the pleasure of the Council is the rule of the day in the Council form. He added that it is called governates by Committee because of these shared responsibilities. Mr. Slatton stated that as he just said all Legislative and Administrative functions are the responsibility of the Council and the Council establishes all departments and agencies, appoints the Clerk, Attorneys and Judge and all employees. He added that it is the Council’s responsibility to see if someone  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 12 of 41 is hired, disciplined or fired and they can do that in a variety of different methods and Mount Pleasant is a good example. Mr. Slatton stated that council can hire an Administrator whose duties are defined by ordinance. He added that any authority that the Council gives to any Administrator or any other employee or representative can be taken at its discretion and of course you adopt a balance budget. Mr. Slatton stated that the Mayor performs administrative duties only if authorized by ordinance, presides at meetings of Council by tradition and exercises informal authority as the leader of Council and a spokesperson for the City. He added that he cannot think of any examples in recent years where a Council took the gavel from the Mayor because the Council members did not like the way the Council meetings were being conducted. He added that they gave the responsibility to the Mayor Pro Tem and in fact had a scheme where they rotate it but he stated an election took care of that problem so they gave the gavel back to the Mayor. Mr. Slatton stated that the Chief Administrative Officer who is appointed by Council is called an Administrator and the authority varies and some Cities and Towns across the State who set their Administrator duties to mirror those of a city manager but can change this by ordinance unlike the Manager form where those responsibilities are set in statute. Mr. Slatton stated he would now talk about the Manager form. He stated that this was the 3rd most used form with 32 of the 271 Cities and Towns and 11 of the 16 largest Cities in the State use that. The Mayor and Council members are forbidden by statute from interfering with the operations of Departments and Agencies under the direction of the Manager. He added that the council cannot be involved in the direct hiring and firing of employees under the Manager. He stated the Manager has the sole authority to hire and fire all employees in the Council Manager form and it is illegal for them to interfere in that.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 13 of 41 Mr. Slatton stated that the Council serves as a legislative body, determines all policies, hires and fires the City Manager and also appoints the Municipal Attorney and the Judge. He added that the Clerk is hired and fired by the Manager. He added he is not sure why that is just the way they set it up for some reason unlike the other two forms. Mr. Slatton stated that the Mayor has no formal authority and presides by tradition and there was a Mayor several years ago, in a Council/Manager form who was not conducting meetings very well and the Council threatened to take the gavel away from him but he has held onto it and done a great job ever since. He added that the mayor exercises the informal authority again. Mr. Slatton stated that the City Manager serves at the pleasure of the Council and State law defines what the City Manager can and cannot do, serves as the CEO, head of the Administrative branch, appoints, removes and fixes the salary of all employees subject to approval by the Council. He added if the City Manager brings a proposal to the Council to hire ten police officers but the Council only approves a budget to hire five police officers then there is the check on the Managers authority. Mr. Slatton stated that depending on the local rules of procedure then the Manager can exercise discretion as to how to move budget amounts around if the Council allows it. He added he prepares and submits to Council a budget and the Council just like in the Mayor/Council form can accept that budget, modify that budget or reject that budget. He added that is up to the Council’s discretion and then any other duties are performed and also appoints the municipal clerk. Mr. Slatton stated the Manager is responsible for preparing an annual financial report and audit and advises the Council on appointments to boards, recommends the creation, change or abolition of departments. He added the Manager can designate a Manager to act in his or her absence. He added there was a City Manager a few years ago, that had to take a leave  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 14 of 41 of absence and he appointed his temporary replacement and it did not require the Council’s approval but any smart City Manager is certainly going to consult with and get some input from his Council when he does that. He added he also implements the Council’s policies. Mr. Slatton stated that some people accuse in some cases the Council Manager and Councils as being the puppet of the Manager but he will tell you as a former City Manager he lost a whole lot more votes than he won on Council so that he disagrees with strongly. Mr. Slatton stated that to change the form of Government in South Carolina the Council may at its discretion pass an ordinance calling for a referendum and if the Council does not do that than 15% of the City’s qualified electors voters can present a petition and then a majority of the folks who vote on election day win the change or not. Mr. Slatton stated that the City of Columbia several years ago, undertook an effort to change its form of Government the Council was being pressured by residents to put it on the ballot but the Council refused to do it until they saw that a partition was going to come forward and so they went ahead and passed the ordinance before the petition was actually presented. He added that got the message and then they were purposing the change from the Council/Manager to the Mayor/Council and that vote failed and they are still the Council/Manager. Mr. Slatton added that no matter what outcome, change or no, you can only hold a referendum to change your form once every four years or four years after the last vote and the idea is to prevent from ping ponging back and forth from one form to the next because it takes time to make the transition from one form to another. He added that you have to change a lot of ordinances, you have to set up the correct legislative and executive function about ordinances and that takes time.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 15 of 41 Mr. Slatton stated that we often get the question, if it changes when should the change take place. He added they recommend when you pass the ordinance calling for the referendum that you state an effective date in the ordinance so the public knows if you are successful in changing, this is when it will start and they recommend that the start time and that change date should not be any further than a year from the date of the referendum. He added to otherwise could give the appearance, and could be challenged, in that you are trying to negate the vote. Mr. Slatton stated there was a city who had purposed to put off their change for like four years and we thought that was just a way to subvert the will of the residence. Mr. Slatton stated that if you need more information he advised to go to Title 5, Chapters 5,9, 11 & 13 or find their handy Forms and Powers of Municipal Government pamphlet on their website, MASC.SC. Mayor Page stated that just for clarity she had asked him to come as the Town was in a similar situation where Council did not take action to move forward a referendum and the Town did have a petition and 8300 people signed it which is not 15% of the registered voters so the petition did not move forward. She added that she heard through all of those conversations including from people sitting with her today that they need to talk about it more and need more answers and this is just an open community conversation which she wishes had moved forward but it did not but there will be an election in 2018 and regardless of the outcome of the next election on November 7th she thinks it is time we start getting the information. Mr. Slatton stated that he makes these presentations across the state and to the public for Cities and Towns who ask for it and in fact he and a colleague have made this same presentation in Summerville several times when the City of Columbia was undertaking their effort with the presentation being made to different public forums.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 16 of 41 Mr. Slatton stated that if you get to that point and you would like to help educate the public he is more than happy to come and stated that they do not take a position on any of the three. He added that this is what he will say on the three forms of government is that they all work just fine and the key is to make sure everyone understands their roles and responsibilities in each of the three and stays in their lane of responsibility and it is when we start swerving out of those lanes that we get into issues but that just like Ford, Chevy or Chrysler, pick your favorite and as long as it runs it runs. Mr. Slatton stated that sometimes it is necessary to make those changes and he is happy to help and give an unbiased opinion on the three. Mr. Smith stated that since this is one of the classes they have to take during the elected officials on the basic level he knows several have passed it already but can those who have not get some CE credits from him this morning. Mr. Slatton stated no that he is not authorized to give those. Mr. Brimmer thank Mr. Slatton for his presentation and wanted to clarify one thing that the issue that arose in Mount Pleasant was not necessarily the forms of Government that he outlined but more the method of election of the Council Members and that was not really addressed today. Mr. Slatton stated that he would let Mr. DeMoura introduce the next speaker to talk about that and he can talk to him about the mechanics of making that change from a procedural standpoint but that Mr. Roberts will talk about it from a demographics standpoint. Mr. Brimmer asked if it was his experience that municipalities will address both of those issues at the same time as a comprehensive reform or do they tend to focus on one or the other.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 17 of 41 Mr. Slatton stated that no, in fact when the two issues are separate from one another, one is a representation question and the other is a governates question and this is strictly the governates part. He added the representation part is what Mr. Roberts will talk about in terms of demographics and his experience and he will talk about how to make the change if you need to. He added that unfortunately there is a provision in State Law, section 5-15-30 that if you decide to change your method of election that is the only question that can be on that ballot. Mr. Slatton stated to Mr. Brimmer that he was not sure that he was answering his question but it raises the point that you could not, if gone forward simultaneously, put both questions on the same ballot because of the one quirky provision in 5-15-30 but that is not to say you could not hold an election one week and then hold the next election the next week you just cannot have those two questions on the same ballot. Mayor Page asked how you choose to have the Mayor as part-time or full- time how is that considered as it is not truly changing the form of Government. Mr. Slatton stated that he would give the example of the Town of Cannon Falls in Abbeville County as they are a Council form of Government and several years ago, they had the duties of the Town, the executive responsibilities, spread amongst the Council Members and a Mayor was elected that they had a lot of trust in and worked well with so they adopted an ordinance to give to that Mayor much of the “Strong Mayor” authority that they could by ordinance. He added at some point if they decided that they do not want that individual to have or some new individual to have that authority then they could pass repel that ordinance and put it back however they want to but in doing that giving the Mayor the “Strong Mayor” powers the accusation is made that you are changing the form of government but you are not because the Council retains at all times the authority to take away or to give responsibilities to any individual that they see fit so you are  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 18 of 41 not changing the form because the power always lies with the Council in that Council form of Government. Mr. DeMoura stated in reference to the question that was asked to be discussed regarding single member districts, from the South Carolina Revenue and Fiscal Affairs Office, Mr. Will Roberts will speak. Mr. Roberts stated that he is from the Revenue and Fiscal Affairs Office and to please not get that confused with the Department of Revenue which they get calls from them all the time. He added that they are an independent State Agency that does a lot of work for the General Assembly with a board of Economic Advisors that oversees their agency and they are a hodge podge of different groups. Mr. Roberts stated that in his group there are two of them and they are not attorneys but they are the people that the attorneys and judges and the legislature call on to look at methods of election and re-districting. He added that they are the ones that actually draw the boundaries and he can answer questions on the methods of elections for municipalities. Mr. Roberts stated that he has drawn re-districting plans for over 100 jurisdictions and done re-districting in North and South Carolina and has worked in State and Federal Court on re-districting issues so that is why he is here to discuss that. Mr. Roberts stated that the methods of election is different from selecting the method of Governates for Municipalities. He added the change in the method of election can be triggered by either an ordinance passed by Council to call for a referendum or a petition of 15% of the registered voters. He added that once that petition is presented then it goes to a vote in the referendum and in that referendum, you select which method of election you would like to go under.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 19 of 41 Mr. Roberts stated that currently the Town of Mount Pleasant selected “At Large” so you have 8 seats, anyone in the Municipality can run in the election and everyone is voted on in the election. Mr. Roberts stated that the next option would be Single Member District where one member would be elected from each of the individual districts in which are drawn and the maps that are drawn are actually set by ordinance by the Council. Mr. Roberts stated that the next option would be a combo plan of Single Member District which you could have five single member districts with three people elected “At Large” from the entire City. Mr. Roberts stated that you can also have residency requirements which the Town of Fort Mill has this and so does Fountain Inn where everyone is elected at large but the members must reside in a certain ward set by council. He added that everyone still feels like they have some say on who represents council. Mr. Roberts stated that there are also the residency requirements with the “at large” combo as well which we do not see as much as either single member districts at large or the residency requirements. Mr. Roberts stated that as an overview of what he has seen is that “At Large” is a good way to go as everyone in the community feels like they have a voice and they vote for everyone. He added that with Single Member Districts they came around as a remedy for the 1965 Voting Rights Act which was enacted to ensure that minorities had the opportunity to elect the candidates of their choice. Mr. Roberts stated that he has seen goods and bads of Single Member Districts. He added that he has seen Single Member Districts where minorities were able to get a seat on Council and he has seen Single Member Districts tear up a Council because everyone stops looking out for  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 20 of 41 the Municipality or the community itself and starts looking for their individual district. Mr. Roberts stated that as an example they had a school board that was small and before the council meeting they started looking at districts and they knew it was going to be heated but one council member was upset because School “A” got a band bus so he was adamant that the high school he represented was also going to get a band bus which he did but the thing was his school did not have a band. He added that everyone starts looking out for what their district is getting and what everyone else is which is one of the downfalls of Single Member Districts is that people start looking out for the districts instead of the overall municipality. Mr. Roberts stated that residency requirement is where each member resides in a district but everybody votes on it at large. Mr. Roberts stated these are the five options you have for selecting methods of election and he would be happy to take any questions. Mayor Page asked if the maps are drawn by the Council and under what guidelines. Mr. Roberts stated that there are different guidelines but he typically uses the traditional re-districting principles and it depends on what you are going towards. He added it you are going for single member districts there are set guidelines used and if you are looking at residency requirements it is pretty much strict population numbers to make sure everything is balanced and “At Large” is just the municipality as a whole but he offered to go over single member districts if the Mayor wished. Mayor Page stated that she was just curious as it caught her attention that she was not sure under what basis the Council would make those decisions.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 21 of 41 Mr. Brimmer asked if Mr. Roberts was familiar with the Charleston County School District and asked if residency would be a requirement with the “At Large” system or how is that defined. Mr. Roberts asked if he was talking about the Individual Constituent Districts or the overall school board. Mr. Brimmer stated the overall Board. Mr. Roberts stated that to be honest he was not sure about the overall school board but that there are Constituent School Districts in which they actually do have residency requirements. Mr. Brimmer stated that here the board serves the whole county but there are a certain number of seats in each geographic area of the County and everyone votes on those seats and he asked if that would be an example. Mr. Roberts stated that would be an example of residency requirements where you have to live in a geographical area but you are voted on by the entire County. Mr. Brimmer stated that one of the concerns raised was the concentration of the Candidates or Council Members in one part of town so this would in his mind be a way for everyone to still have their voice but it would also prevent a certain part of town to be concentrated on Council as well. Mr. Roberts stated that was correct and one of the main criteria for re- districting and looking a residency requirements is to make sure that you follow the one person one vote rule. He added that basically your districts will be mathematically equal as practical, not possible but practical so what they do is take the overall population and when you re-district you go back to the previous decade which would be what the 2010 census numbers were that showed the population at 67,843 and you divide that by the number of districts and that gives you what your target is and then that is  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 22 of 41 about where you draw each district as far as population but then again depending on whose on Council at the time there are ways to craft the plan so that if you have neighbors living next door to each other they would still live next to each other but represent an individual district. Mr. Carrier stated they have always heard that Council can recommend the districting if they did the Single Member Districts but it had to be reviewed by a higher power and maybe even two higher powers, a State Election Commission as well as some state review. Mr. Roberts stated that the State Election Commission has no authority over the plans but what Mr. Carrier is probably talking about is the Department of Justice Review which is under Section 5 of the 1965 Voting Rights Act and there was a court case that came out about 4 to 5 years ago, in which the Supreme Court ruled that Section 4 of the 1965 voting rights act was unconstitutional and what Section 4 was the formula of who was covered under Section 5. He added that basically that knocked out section 4 & 5. Mr. Roberts stated that you do not have to send anything up for the Department of Justice to review so now as soon as it is passed by ordinance and enacted by the Council then it becomes law. Mr. Slatton stated that even though you are not required because of the Shelby Decision to send these things to the Department of Justice we have continued to recommend that you do so and they will send a letter back that says “we do not review these, you did not need to send this to us” you will have that letter in the event the Shelby Decision gets changed and is challenged by someone that it should have been cleared by the Department of Justice. Mr. Carrier asked if that goes for a combination of districts as well as “At Large”.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 23 of 41 Mr. Roberts stated that under Section 5 any change in elections would have to go up there for pre-clearance and so that is no longer the case. He added that does not matter if you go single member or if you go to a combination plan. Mr. Brimmer stated that if he could shift gears from the actual form and talk about the process of if this Council decided they wanted to pursue putting something on as a referendum what does that process look like, when does it start, when does it have to happen. Mr. Roberts stated that he was not sure of the time frame but that it is outlined in the South Carolina Code of Law exactly what the time frame is and there are different time frames you must meet once the petition is filed or an ordinance is called then it triggers a certain time frame between the call for referendum and when the referendum takes place but he is not sure of that 100%. Mayor Page stated that we either tie it to a general election that is coming or we hold a special election. Mr. Roberts stated that the Town could hold a special election but the petition cannot be any older than 60 days so once the petition starts you have 60 days to get it going. Mr. Brimmer stated that there was a failed petition and now the question is if Council wants to act on its own and move this forward. Mr. Roberts stated that they could act on their own to change an ordinance to say this is the date we are going to hold it and just follow the election statues from that point forward. Mr. Carrier stated that time frame was 6 months not 60 days.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 24 of 41 Mr. Roberts stated that he would have to look at it as there is a 60-day limit in there but what it applies to exactly he wants to be sure of. Mr. Pagliarini stated that the petition is six months but the “60 days” Mr. Roberts is speaking of is to call a referendum it does not specifically say whether you need to have that referendum within 60 days. Mayor Page stated the means we are not bound by that. Mayor Page asked if anyone in the audience had questions. Mr. Rodly Millet of 1965 Wisteria Wall Drive stated that he wanted to thank the guest speakers for explaining the forms of government and also how we elect representatives. He stated that Mr. Roberts indicated in his presentation that the “At Large” is a great way to go and that every other means had problems but he has found in his experience that nothing is 100% and asked if there were problems we experienced with “at large”. Mr. Millet stated that for example Mr. Brimmer stated that we may have a majority of council elected at large but live in one particular area of town and that can cause something very similar to district representation where you are seeing motions, decisions, spending occurring in one particular town vs. across the town. He added if there was a list of issues that there may be for “At Large” than he would love to hear them. Mr. Roberts stated that was one of the issues that had come up and not only for Municipalities but also a School District that looked at changing the form of election but that would have taken legislative action by the General Assembly but they had the same situation that the Board Members were elected from one part of the School District and the people that actually lived out in the School District and paid the most taxes and had the higher value for real estate felt like they were not getting a voice at the table and so they were paying the bills for everything and they had no representation  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 25 of 41 they felt like but they still voted on everyone that was on the Council. He added that is one of the issues that they do see. Mr. Millet stated the other issue has to do with population size and he asked if it is traditional that municipalities start looking at different means of electing officials when they are getting to a specific population size or geographical area. He added that one example is that you have towns and cities that are above 100,000 that are still doing “At Large”. Mr. Roberts stated that the change of population does not really trigger a change in method of election. He added that a lot of Single Member Districts that we have come from court rulings and intervention by the Department of Justice and so the City of Columbia has a combination where they went to four single member districts and those are solid African American districts in which minorities will be able to elect a candidate of their choice. He added there is not a population change or shift that would cause someone to start looking at single member districts but it is possible that a lot of people live in one certain area and everyone else feels like they are not getting a voice and that would be a reason. Mr. Millett stated that there are positives and negatives to the various means of electing people. Mr. John Wright, 145 Rose Lane stated that he appreciated Mr. Roberts preference but that he does not like that and does not want “At Large”. He added his preference is Single Member Districts and one thing he wanted to make clear is that the Civil Rights Act of 1965 was mentioned and that is a very old law and first and foremost that should be looked at. He added that South Carolina is 5% higher than the National average which is 8-10% across the United States and South Carolina is at 15% so this should be looked at as it relates to allowing our voters to have a right to participate and their voice be heard.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 26 of 41 Mr. Wright stated that when we started this process the whole Voter Rights Act of 1965 uniquely he is African American born and raised and that was never an issue that he even looked at simply because here in Mount Pleasant, he was gone 29 years and it was 22 % of the population and now we are less than 5%. Mr. Wright stated that when we look at that minority in Council was not even an issue because he knew we did not have the population to do that or did we have the registered voters that would have us say there is an area of Town that is being disenfranchised. He added our 80,000 people in Mount Pleasant is being disenfranchised with this “At Large” system so that is his point and again he stated if we continue to allow 85,000 people to vote for 9 and we get less than 11% turn out than that is disenfranchising itself. Mayor Page stated that there is another way that this happens and that is through law suites. Mr. Roberts stated that was correct and also stated that he is not advocating for one form or another that he just wants to give the up side and down side of all of them. He added like it was said, the “At Large” you can have 8 people next door to each other and they represent the entire city so he did not want to come across one or the other. Mr. Roberts stated that since it was mentioned he wanted to go across and look at Single Member Districts and what the criteria would be and talk about the 1965 Voting Rights act as mentioned. Mr. Roberts stated that for developing plans the first thing to look at is the one person, one vote. He added that there are 67,843 people in the Town according to the 2010 census and you divide that number by 8 and you are looking at 8,480 persons per district. Mr. Roberts stated that when they go in they will start drawing the Districts in individual areas to make sure that the population is equal and like the  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 27 of 41 gentleman said the African American population has decreased dramatically over the past decades and now there is only 5.2% black voting age population and that is everyone that is 18 years old or older. Mr. Roberts stated that if he took basically all the African Americans in Mount Pleasant and was able to draw them in one District they would not make up a super majority of that district. He added it is impossible to draw it to satisfy something like the 1965 Voting Rights Act if we were looking at doing a Single Member District to ensure a minority candidate would be elected there. Mr. Roberts stated that the third thing they do is ensure that parts of the Districts are contiguous as you cannot have different satellite pieces all over the place and everything has to be together. Mr. Roberts stated that was the three main characteristics that they look at when drawing maps for Single Member Districts. He added the fourth thing they try to do is respect Communities of Interest. He added in a town like this there are different pockets of it that are what they call Communities of Interest and they try to keep those in tack as much as possible. Mr. Roberts stated that they also try to maintain constituent consistency and what that is when you are elected by the people in the Town and they expect some kind of consistency once the new plan is enacted. He added that they try to separate the incumbents as much as possible to ensure that we are not going in and shaking up the districts as they do not want to go in and put all 8 members in the same district and have a new election and have a new Council come up. Mr. Roberts stated that the last thing they try to do is to try to avoid splitting voting precincts. He added that is difficult to do because the precincts change and the General Assembly has the authority to change the precinct lines and with changing population you are going to have change in precinct lines as well.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 28 of 41 Mr. Roberts stated the first three adhere to the constitutional requirement of one person, one vote and adhering to the Voting Rights of 1965 and the ensuring the parts of the districts are contiguous are the main things that drive Single Member Districts. Mr. Brimmer stated that communities of interest were mentioned and asked for some examples of that. Mr. Roberts stated that it was open to interpretation by the Council as there is no set thing of what a community of interest is. He added it could be a neighborhood, a portion of the school district that is zoned, it could be multiple things and it is up to the Council to decide what a Community of interest is. Ms. G. M. Whitley of 809 Post Oak Drive stated that her concern of moving to a single member district would be the matter of representation for all of Mount Pleasant as currently if you are an elected official in Mount Pleasant your job is to represent Patriots Point to Tupelo which is all the communities of interest and they all have your ear. She added if you are a Single Member District you are only accountable to the small chunk of people that are in there and she worries that would result in incumbencies that would last forever and it would be hard to get new blood or people getting out to vote. Ms. Whitley stated that 11,000 people came out to vote out of 80,000 people and she feels that is miserable and she heard that the majority of those were on the South side of Town so what really needs done is get out the vote on the North side of Town and make sure their voices are heard as well, they get out there and then they feel like they have candidates that are not just representing the single interest of one side of Town but representing all of Mount Pleasant because we are all Mount Pleasant. Mayor Page stated she thinks the conversation has included allowing every citizen to vote on every district member as we do at the Charleston County School Board so they are all equally represented if that would be the case.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 29 of 41 Mr. Millett stated that when talking about means of election and doing at large voting and being able to vote for 8 council members on the board we are making the assumption that they will represent us but we are not sure of that. He added that he cannot say definitely voting for our 8 that they are going to represent me because they are on Council at the time and he believes it is unfair to draw the conclusion that because they are all elected at large that they will represent all the Town of Mount Pleasant. Mayor Page stated that she would take a couple more comments but then move on to the next item. Ms. Pat Sullivan, 1002 Plantation Court, wanted to make an observation as she sat thru the process with the Planning Commission to determine who is going to be on the Committee to create the new comprehensive plan. She added that the room was filled with the Commissioners and there were 4 staff members and she must say the staff was incredibly put together on how much information they had for everyone. Ms. Sullivan stated that the staff started out by recommending that there be 8 geographic districts and they tried to make it population wise equal. She added that when the Planning Commission discussed this and they decided for the sake of diversity that 8 geographic districts were the best to work thru this so in front of the them, the Planning Commission had a list of all the applicants divided by district and they took the voting district, by district and the information they had in front of them had no names and they had no idea who they were choosing from the list. Ms. Sullivan stated that the Planning Commission had the person gender, what their voice is and your what your age range is. She added if the applicant wanted to they could make a comment as to the things they were involved in. Ms. Sullivan stated that there were 275 applications and this Commission whittled 275 down to 66 in the first pass and 33 in the second pass. She  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 30 of 41 added the amazing thing was when they looked at male/female of the 33 it was equal. When they looked at age ranges it was equal and when they looked at race it represents the Town and the race was majority Anglos followed by 8 African Americans, 2 Latino and 2 Other. Ms. Sullivan stated she thinks they were surprised and she was surprised at how well this turned and they were working geographically to make sure they had a “diverse” representation on the comp. plan. She added that she like the idea of having diverse representation. Mr. Kevin Cunnane of 3032 River Vista Way stated he wanted to thank the Mr. Roberts for the presentation as we have not seen this enough. He added that he saw one last year at committee and there was about 6 to 8 people in the room and felt it was great that he came in and explained this. Mr. Cunnane stated that the next thing was a point of order. He added that he noticed that individuals were being allowed to speak twice and he noticed that they are not being timed and he hopes that is turning over a new leaf as opposed to just this issue. Mayor Page stated that you still only have two minutes at Council but he is welcome to speak here as this is Committee. Mr. Cunnane stated that at Committee as well he has been cut off and told not to speak twice but he is glad to see that on some issues that people are allowed to do so and thank the Mayor. Mayor Page stated that she has never cut anyone off from speaking but she will keep you to 2 minutes at Council. Mr. John Nagel of 1653 Sewee Fort Road stated on the practical matter of running for Council in Mount Pleasant, as the Town has gotten larger, it has gotten more expensive to run and that limits the number of people who are willing to put forth their effort to run.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 31 of 41 Mr. Nagel stated that running city wide people are spending large amounts of money and as a result they do not self-fund themselves so they get people to support them and that is when you get the special interest money involved as so many people said about the builders are supporting that person or something like that. Mr. Nagel stated that the reality is that is the way it is nation and statewide in running for office too. He added that if you have a small enough district you do not have to spend and large amount of money only a large amount of personal time so that you get to know the people in your district and the people get to know you. Mr. Nagel stated that he has been here since 2004 and the last go around, he has worked in 4 races for Town Council, and there were a lot of the people on the ballot that he had never heard of because they just showed up the first time. Mr. Nagel stated that what it turns into is a popularity contest and he is not going North vs. South but the reality is there is a certain section of Town where the people turn out to vote because they know the people who are on the ballot but the other end of Town have a lot of people who are new and who do not know people on the ballot and have not vested interested in it and they do not turn out to vote. Mr. Nagel stated that if you have small enough districts and an individual had to go door to door to meet those people or call community meeting then people would get interested and the voting turn out would substantially increase which is what you want to do and have people interested in the community and not ignoring it. Mayor Page stated that these were all great comments and she appreciated both speakers coming today and felt it was great information. She added that this was taken today for discussion and hopes the community will continue to have the discussion and there is time to make decisions and this  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 32 of 41 is the beginning of a discussion that she is more than willing to have with the 84,000 that did sign the petition and those who do not want to discuss the issue. b. Report from the East Cooper Land Trust regarding donated property Mayor Page stated the last item on the agenda is a report from the East Cooper Land Trust regarding donated property and introduced Cathryn Main. Ms. Main stated she would like to thank the Committee for the donation of the land to the East Cooper Land Trust for the purpose of creating a memorial park Kenny Seamon. She added that unfortunately at the first public workshop that was held in order to try to decide what the future of that piece of land would be there was some overwhelming opposition from the community that did not want a park there in honor of Kenny Seamon. Ms. Main stated that she was here to report on this and to also seek the committee’s advice on how they should move forward with that property and also to move forward on how they can continue to look and get support for doing something for Kenny Seamon. Mayor Page thanked Ms. Main and stated she appreciated her comments. Mayor Page stated that there were several residents here that are interested in this issue and she knows that the Committee may have some questions and she stated that she and Ms. Main had briefly talked and she asked her to write that letter because obviously, the easiest response is that the Committee could ask the Trust to give it back. Mayor Page stated that may solve the problem and the Town could keep it for property that may be used at some future date or who knows what the needs of the Town will be later on so there is that remedy. She added she knows Ms. Main has talked with Christiane about the new idea for honoring  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 33 of 41 him in the Oakland Plantation Trail but is not sure if we need to discuss that here and feels we should keep the discussion to the actual transfer of the land but she is committed to helping the Trust move forward. Mayor Page stated that she saw an email chain that there had to be some type of variance request and needed to go to Town Council. She added that the Committee could take the action to take it to Town Council to talk about further. Mr. Carrier stated that he had asked this to be put on the agenda as he thought it was a terrific gesture on the Town’s part and involving the Land Trust to make something nice happen on what has been sort of a neglected piece of property. He added that he asked this to be on the agenda because he wanted to know why it was unacceptable to the community as this was purely an innocent gesture by the Town to do something nice and necessarily have a Kenny Seamon neon sign sitting up there but to create something very nice on that corner and he asked what was the objection. Ms. Main stated that there was concern in the Scanlonville Community that they did not want a park and they certainly did not want anything that had anything to do with someone who was not from that community there and so Seamon Whiteside has decided that is not what Kenny would want to be there and so the Land Trust would like is just to consider looking at the future of the property and to get the support of the Committee to have the ownership after it has been restricted from development and perhaps donate the property to the community. She added that she wanted the Committee’s thoughts on that. Ms. Main stated they have met with the community and they are in favor of working with the Trust on that and the Trust just wants to the get the Town’s support and thoughts on that. Mayor Page stated that she see some of the residence there and there will be challenges however this goes forward and she thinks Ms. Main put it  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 34 of 41 eloquently that there was no intent on Council’s part to do anything but something nice for the community as a whole. Mr. Smith stated that speaking specifically to the Land Trust, on the assets that they currently have, are the assets developed or have on going plans to be developed or are there some assets that are just being held with no plans at this time. Ms. Main stated that there are assets that they hold and have ideas of things they would like to do on the property but they can just hold it as land to prevent it from being developed. Mr. Smith stated that holding assets that have no plans on them currently or funding primarily drives most of that decision he images and assumes is a precedent that is already there. Ms. Main stated that was correct. She added they can hold it and do limited clean up days or something like that to maintain the property but it would be maintained in its natural state which from what she understands is really what the community wanted is to keep it natural. Mr. Smith stated it was to keep it from being developed essentially. Mr. Carrier stated that it never was going to be developed not by giving it to the Land Trust. Ms. Main stated that was correct. Mr. Smith stated if it comes back to the Town then it could be sold off as an asset to a private person and could be developed. Mayor Page stated that it could have been all along but that has not been the course the Town has taken and the Town has given land away to neighborhoods before.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 35 of 41 Mr. Brimmer stated that he had a question but that Catherine had just answered it as he heard her say earlier that the committee did not want this or that on the property. He added his question was going to be what is the vision of the community for that piece of property and what he heard her say was leave it the way it is. Ms. Main stated that she would want to defer to the members of the community to answer that question as there have been several long meetings with no consensus. Mr. Edward Lee of the East Cooper Civic Club, 158 6th Avenue in Scanlonville stated that the property has a long history and he thinks that it is a bit of a mixed characterization to say they did not want a park. Mr. Lee stated that he remembers back when the property had a residence on it and a lot of the properties there have a cloud on ownership so that has always been a problem over there. Mr. Lee stated that at one point the Town wanted to put a fire station there but the community was in favor of that and they worked with the town but unfortunately there was strong opposition from Molasses Creek and that is why the fire station was moved. Mr. Lee stated that after that the Church tried to get the property and he is not sure how that work out but he knows they have been after the property for quite a while and the intent was to always make it a park but the problem was when the Land Trust came to them they presented it as making a park in tribute to Mr. Seamon who most of the community does not know so the problem was not a park just a tribute to Mr. Seamon. Mr. Lee stated the community thought it would be more appropriately named after Mr. Robert Scanlon or someone that had a connection with the community since it was in the community.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 36 of 41 Mr. Lee stated they have met with the Land Trust 3 times, once with the church and twice with the civic club. He added they are not in opposition to the park as they want that too but are opposed to it being a tribute to Mr. Seamon. He added nothing against Mr. Seamon it is just that in that community they feel it will be more appropriate if it is someone who has a connection. Mayor Page thanked Mr. Lee for coming today and like she said there was no intention from anyone on Council to overlook the historical reference to the property and she never heard of the Church asking the Town about donation of the property or it was before her 8 years. Mayor Page stated she would be happy to facilitate a further meeting with the Land Trust and the neighborhood representatives if he thinks he can bring in some neighbors who might be willing to have a conversation and see if there is any consensus before this committee make a decision to take this to Council she is here to hear what the committee wants which is always her goal. Mayor Page stated she sees several people who live in the neighborhood so she will be glad to take it to a smaller room with less people to try to have an equal voice or we can decide here what we think. Mr. Lee stated to just let him know the Mayor’s availability and he will work with all the staff. Mayor Page stated that she sees other neighbors as well and does not want to ruin an opportunity for anything including and especially conservation of property because if we had the wherewithal as a community to stop growth the only answer would be to buy properties so when you own properties that can be conserved from development forever she thinks that is something the whole community wants to hear.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 37 of 41 Mayor Page stated if Catherine was okay with that and the Committee is okay with that instead of making a decision today there can be a private meeting and maybe bring a solution to the Council. Mr. Lee asked if that would be a private meeting with Town involvement. Mayor Page answered absolutely. Ms. Main stated that just so everyone knows too that the Trust can hold the land but it would be their preference to just protect the land and then just turn the ownership back to the community and she is not requesting that they are giving it back to the Town. Mayor Page stated that anything would still need to be decided by the Council and committee would have to decide what to bring forward and there is just nothing to bring forward today so there needs to be further conversation if that is okay with the Committee and then it will be brought back here between now and next month there will be a community and conservation committee meeting where everyone will be welcome to sit in. Ms. Main stated that she is curious since they now own the property does the Trust need to have the Council’s blessing. Mayor Page stated that if she wants to continue the conversations with the neighborhood that the Town has given them the property but the challenge is the Trust is not going to build a park and she is hearing now that the neighborhood wants a park. She added if the Trust is not going to give the community what they want and they have the property that was given to them then the Town is obligated to make a decision on what is done with it. Mr. DeMoura stated that Council gave the land to the Trust with the stipulation and the stipulation is not being met so he believes the Town absolutely has a voice in the matter.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 38 of 41 Mayor Page stated that she feels the same way. Mr. Smith stated for clarification for that interpretation it is the interpretation that the Town donated land for it to be developed to a park and there was a funding source and a plan for that park. He added that if the funding source and plan goes away but it is still going to be a park then why would the Town insert itself in a private matter. Mr. DeMoura stated that it was a question for the Committee as the policy makers as the land was given away with a stipulation that was not met and it is up to the Committee whether they feel a voice should be brought back into the conversation going forward. Mr. Smith stated that he would just ask Madam Mayor and the Committee members to their consideration to just stand down for now and allow a private matter to be discussed privately and insert ourselves when we have too and perhaps the Land Trust could have this meeting with the community and let’s work forward working in collaboration together and when we see that they cannot then the Town can insert itself. Mayor Page stated that the challenge there is that there have been 3 community meetings and that is her only concern and she was only offering to help as some sort of resolution as she believes there was conflict at all 3 of the meetings. Ms. Main stated she believes if the Town is willing to be a partner in the management of the park that would definitely be a reason to have the Town included. Mayor Page stated that was a real challenge and that was a very sweet way to ask of it but the numbers from the Finance Committee that the Town does not have the funds for is definitely a challenge.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 39 of 41 Mr. Brimmer stated he feels that the concern here is really just he dedication to Mr. Seamon on this property so he feels if the Town has a role in this discussion maybe it is that and that as a Council discuss other options for that dedication and let that part of the property pursue other options and take that option off the table. Mayor Page stated that there is also a funding issue as the Trust had funding for it to become a park through the dedication to Seamon & Whiteside. Mr. Carrier stated that is the point he wanted to make that the funding does go away when they do not want the Seamon & Whiteside as contributors then that goes away because they will find somewhere else to do the dedication. Mr. Brimmer stated that was find because the neighborhood and the Trust can then discuss what to put these and where the funding comes from and does not have to be the Committees discussion. He added to just pull that funding back and use it for another option for Mr. Seamon. Mr. Lee stated that there was another small concern with the church because they had pursued the property in previous years and there was also the question of why the Town gave the property to the Land Trust instead of offering it to the church so there are two concerns there. Mayor Page stated that it was asked and it is as innocent as that. She added the firm came to the Town and said they were looking to honor their partner and wanted to see if there was any land so it was very innocent on the Town’s part and she is not saying the church did not ask but it really is why we are here today because a firm had an opportunity to do something landscape design is what they do and they wanted to enrich a piece of property and that is where it got to. Mr. Smith stated that he wanted to go on record as a councilman for the past 4 years that he is unaware of any “ask” as an elected official from the  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 40 of 41 church. He added that he wanted to be on the record that no one has approached him. Mr. Lee stated that he has been a resident of Remley’s Point since 1959 so he knows the church asked several years ago, probably 10-15 years ago. Mayor Page stated that it was up to the committee now and asked what they would like to now going forward because we seemed to be at the same impasse as when the meeting started. Mr. Wright stated that in the meetings he attended with the Land Trust and the community that overwhelming they do want the Land Trust to build a park in Kenny Seamon’s honor. He added that they were willing to take the investors and make it a Robert Scanlon park but feels that more importantly the community is concerned about the additional layer that will be over them if they were to assume it and make it a conservation area. He added that they did not want the Land Trust and the Town as a layer between what they did with the park. Mr. Wright stated that in other words they wanted the direct option of having the land given directly to the community and the church vs. the community and the church and then the Land Trust. Mayor Page stated that she is looking to the committee for help. Mr. Smith stated that he would speak up as he does not support taking the land back as it was a gift from the Town to the Land Trust and it had stipulations he understands, appreciates and respects that which is the rub that makes you wonder if the gift with the restrictions cannot be met then should the gift be not given. He added that it is the spirit of giving the land for the intent that it will not be developed and it was going to be a beautiful park he struggles with the Town taking it even though there was a stipulation there but there clearly was a stipulation there.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee September 5, 2017 Page 41 of 41 Mr. Brimmer stated that he would put it out there and see what the Committee’s thought is. Mr. Brimmer motioned that the Committee not take the property back into Town ownership but take the funding back for the improvement. Mayor Page stated that it was not the Town’s funding. Mr. Carrier motioned that the committee stand down and challenge the East Cooper Land Trust and the community to work this out and it become a private matter and the Committee stand down for now until the Trust reports back. Mr. Carrier seconded the motion. 3 were in favor (Mr. Brimmer, Mr. Carrier & Mr. Smith) with 1 opposed (Mayor Page). Motion carried. 6. Adjourn There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned at 12:27pm. Minutes submitted by: Lori Gaskin 09/13/2017