City Council

City Council Committee on Ordinances Licenses and Legal Affairs November 14th, 2023 the committee of the whole will meet in person on Tuesday November 14th 2023 at 6:00 p.m. for the purpose of discussing amending an ordinance relative to sidewalk permits section 38-7 obstructions of channel of chapter 38 streets and sidewalks establishing a City of Salem outdoor dining policy and hold a public hearing to discuss removing Clover street from the list of accepted streets in the City of Salem this meeting will be held in city council chambers 93 Washington Street Salem Massachusetts second floor please see the link found in the agenda password 48 9211 or telephone 87785 35257 or 8 88475 4499 the city council committee on ordinances licenses and legal affairs c-post with the committee the whole met in Chambers and city council chambers on November 14th 2023 at 607 p.m. for the purpose of discussing the matters listed below notice of this meeting was posted on October 30th 2023 at 1:51 p.m. absent from the committee are councilors Dominguez and fella we do have a quorum though with councillor Cohen councillor prusi and myself this is co-ed so with us from the rest of the council are councillor McCarthy councillor Watson felt councillor Merkl and councillor stot okay so first tonight we're going to take number 438 a public hearing to remove clover street from the list of accepted streets we should all I'll have in front of you a packet that includes the request made by Mr G gagnan and that is to remove this street which was inappropriately accepted as a city street several decades ago so why don't we start with Mr gagnan do you want to come up and just give us a little bit of background and I will ask you to speak right into the microphone so that people at home can hear you hello my name is Joe gagman and I'm in a butter of clover Street I own 106 Broadway a appr just several months ago and just had approval through the board of appeals to construct three units there and as an AB but I just wanted to be able to landscape not only my property but the property around the 12a street private way or public as it is right now public road and just to make it look nicer and more fitting into the neighborhood rather than a place where people dump trash and so forth on that little fake Street okay all right counc Colin thank you chair Marcelo so I've I've met with Mr gagman a few times at the property it's strange if you drive by it it's barely big enough for a few cars way back when when National Grid did some work they actually dumped a bunch of the street tar into the space so it was not really able to be viable for anything and I think we should go ahead and pass this as as we may have other of these circumstances come up in the future anyone else before we go to to the public and zoom land councillor pasi thank you chair Sol r gagman I'm sort of familiar with the area and I've driven by it that street actually ends now on property that belongs to Salem State College it's their parking lot where adward and Marrow used to be and my question to our city solicitor is that this the U the city owns that property right up until until the park and or or does that street continue into the Salem State Property so the way the way that we're speaking of tonight is private property it was improperly accepted as a public Street in 1996 it happened to be listed a lot of people streets of the time were listed on the street listing and there was a designation that there were paper streets this was one of them and in 96 for whatever reason the then engineer put forward to the city council in order to accept all of those not all of those but a lot of them that was were simply paper streets so over the years we have been correcting that list and this is one of them the property itself was is belongs to the City of Salem no it's private private yeah and the owner of that property it's the new owner here the paper streets are usually old subdivisions where the lots are not developed or or sold off individually and this is one of those areas where it was laid out on a plan there was there's a small Street shown as a way it was never developed never paved I don't think it was ever paved it actually is is it okay two3 paved two3 paved many years ago yes but it's never been a Street so it's it's not city property okay thank you for clarifying it thank you councillor colen I move that we wait can we go to the public first okay I do want to make one comment I just got a text that there's no audio for the public my bad okay we should probably do that again through I remember when I I can summarize so this is a street not really a street but is a Pap street that was mistly accepted as a priv public way back in 1996 in error by the city council okay for those of you in the public that did not have audio my apologies okay my apologies on that we are starting over though and so we just heard from Miss rard who explained that this we're starting with the public hearing on the removal of clover street from the list of accepted streets and Mard just explained that this is one of the streets that was let me see improperly accepted by the city back in 1996 it is a paper Street it is private property it's not owned by the city and I will actually ask Mr gagman again to explain his request hello my name is Joseph gagman and I'm B to Clover Street to the left I am 106 Broadway and I was just approved through the board of appeals to make three units there and I spent some significant money and dumpsters to clean out glob Street which was basically a junkard people been dumping there forever and and so basically I'm just looking this to make this back to the private property so I can landscape that area and make it look nice as I expected it will be thank you any any other questions council president do you want to repeat your question I just wanted public to know that this was I think C say this was never this was never property was prob property that was misten made into Pap streen so we're basically just thank you counc col do you want to add anything I thank you chair Marcil I just want to say that I been not to the property everything that has been said you know I agree with and and I will be voting to approve the conversion of this back thank you and I will say just for the clarity in public land this is an an ordinances licenses and legal Affairs meeting and with us from the committee just for clarity is councillor Cen councel pres and myself councillor s Dominguez and morala are absent and it is co-hosted for the rest of the agenda and so just to make sure that people know that counselor McCarthy counselor Waton Bel counselor Merkl and counselor Scot are joining us so with that if there's no more questions in the room about this particular public hearing on on the street I will go to the the attendees in the public if anyone would like to make a comment on the the removal of clover Street as a as a city street please raise your hand okay seeing none I will take a motion Council thank you chair Marcel I move that we accept this qu C to refer this back to the committee with a recommendation to remove the street from the list of city streets all those in favor three three in favor zero oppos the matter carries thank you for being here I will take a motion to close the public hearing counselor call I might get this right I we close the public hear Council pres second second all those in favor all matter okay now moving on to outdoor dining before we have an ordinance and a policy and I will also say that with us tonight we have mayor pangala we have Kate New Hall Smith from the planning department and we have Miss rard from legal so I will start by saying a few things about this this was submitted in April there have been a few modifications to it a few amendments that are being proposed tonight that include what we're going to be charging so with that I think as far as Co goes this is probably one of the best things that came out of Co the ability to have outdoor dining I think people in general enjoy outdoor dining and so finding a way to make this work for the city and for the restaurant owners is the goal tonight we did as a city Step Up support for our restaurants when they were struggling and now even even as the a couple years have gone by we're still trying to return back to normal outdoor dining is definitely helping the restaurants so the thing though is that it is costly for municipalities to be able to host outo dining as far as making the spaces safe it is a loss of parking Revenue if they're using parking spaces and then there's permitting and all of that the so over the summer there there's also there's also issues about accessibility that we need to keep in mind and so over the summer Council colan and I did some work with the disabilities commission to go out and to just kind of do a survey of the outdoor dining spaces to determine if they are up to standards for accessibility for the most part they were and it was not an enforcement campaign it was merely an educational campaign with a conversation with the restaurant owners with managers to help them understand how they could make little modifications to make their spaces more accessible and so that work kind of went into subing some of the Amendments before us tonight we want to make sure that all the spaces all the public spaces are accessible by everyone including Pathways to bathrooms inside restaurants so that's really important and you'll see that later on in the in the policy work so I think this is the main thing so what we have before us is an ordinance change which is very small it just talks about how we're using public roads and sidewalks what is allowed to be there and what isn't allowed to be there and then we have a whole policy and the policy is something that the city council will approve the reason why it's broken up between an ordinance and a policy is that it's easier to make changes to a policy and so since this is something that we're just starting and we're getting into the nuts and bolts of and I'm sure we will have to make modifications over the next couple of years to address situations as they arise it's easier to just make a separate policy that will be found on the website probably under the city clerk under the city council stuff but also as part of the online permitting system so that anyone who is applying to have a space will have the full the full list of the full text of the policy I pretty much cover that okay all right all right so why don't we start with the ordinance and I'll go through the minor changes made to the ordinance since it was in April so the new let me see I hope you guys have a copy of the new one the old one should have the number on it 234 and then the new one okay good all right I'm just going to point on a few of the changes in section two it says it's it's added the Redevelopment Authority and or city council instead of just the city council for approval so the whole addition of the Redevelopment Authority is to understand that the downtown area is under the oversight or within the oversight of the Redevelopment Authority is that okay so that's that's one and then the second is down at the bottom in the paragraph shorting persons applying for a permit it also adds the Redevelopment Authority and our city council that's new and then the rest from then on is pretty much new language so it says outdoor seating on a sidewalk within the city's Urban manual District shall be the sole jurisdiction of the city's Redevelopment Authority applications for seeding within a public Street within the urban renewal districts however must receive both Redevelopment Authority and city council approval okay I believe those are the really the only two changes in the ordinance it's just the addition of the perent through the Redevelopment Authority are there any questions on that or any questions on anything in the text for the ordinance Council thank you chair committee through you to be sorry it say specifically sidewalks how does that pertain to the the restaurants that are right next to City Hall it's not on the sidewalk it's in that common area back over here specifically Turners and the other restaurant is that considered sidewalk they fall under that being sidewalk or do we have to spell out addition two sidewalks so Turners has already gotten their approval Toc for their alteration premise they've already gone through the SR process for their Furniture fixtures they through the city property Opus on the other hand will go through I think they've yeah so op o dire does have permission to be out back a lot of where they are is actually on their property when they extend into the walkways as s five property I believe and they did receive commission from s five as did Turners Turners ising on sale so technically other than permitting no jurisdiction over them so they they're not they're not paying they won't be paying a fee to the city VI that's on they have a separate samp correct how does that work with the reg East regiment went to the as well and they got through the they have license agreement they're on S land Pio and so they have a license agreement with the S we we review it every three years there's a fee that they pay to the s for is it comparable to the fees that we are proposing it is y it's it's probably a little a little bit better than the that you're proposing well not right right so they I believe it was it a dollar sare foot I think it was a dollar square foot but we do have an an escalator for cost of living Ines anybody ask one last question is are there any other properties specifically Sr jurisdiction that are not on so side walks the street that would fall into this area that isn't really totally spelled out I mean those are the ones that originally came to my mind because they're right here I mean if I want walking around my head of all the restaurants and properties downtown I'm trying to think of anyone else that would black par yes you do have some spes that set a portion of the other two and what they I have to look back they got s approval we license agreements most cases we have on e i believe' right so they went through we called it Cafe permit when it went through the SR through Co so they have gone through that process it's basically the aftering process so thatan all so they're not agreements they just went through the outdoor dining review process ledger so we anticipate that ledger and the Derby will be subject to the fees here in they will not have to go back to the SR because they've already done that Cafe permit with respect to the seating and all that lure will need to come back if they want their big outdoor space they didn't get permitted for that they got permitted for a couple small tables right side building back pre before we extended outwards from the buildings so they would have to do it rocket if they keep just their front patio they're all set with Sr but if they did want to keep their on the side of their building they have to come back for that extended area that wasn't reviewed yet I'm just when I look at the list in my head I'm trying to think of all the places that that are in the SR that already have some sort of permanent agreement through the SR and I'm wondering what's going to happen when that when those agreements f up against what we're proposing and then you're going to have a whole slew of potential restaurant people coming in and start setting where the equity in the fact that they you know each agreement I'm not I don't have the agreements me that the SR worked out over the course of years so I don't know you know when they're going to be up for Renewal but you know you just the fact that one of the agreement said a dollar STP FP some proposing depends upon whether it's Calk be doll or50 so I just want to make sure that you know it becomes Equitable across the board when it comes to because comes to that because the last thing I want is I don't want to pick our restaurants against each other right that's something that serves is the we talked about earlier tonight we'll make a list of all those properties that already sub to and make sure that we are Trea and can I clarify real quick so we have a permanent process we had a pering process preo for outo dining with the SR there was no fee assessed to review an outdo dining proposal so the SRA never collected money from of most of these restaurants the only restaurants the S has a license agreement for are ERS and East regiment and that's because they're on S property so we have a license agreement that they pay a feed to the S to be able to use that property for their own business purposes those are the only two license agreements those are the only two places that actually pay a fee to use that land and that land isn't City own land is Sr land so we don't have payments coming in for rock Bells from Red L from hululu and and all the other out dining establishments you see so I don't know if that clarifies things a little bit well like was to follow question is follow money where is so the S has an account that in what the Curious question is what do you do with the money we do all the things that Redevelopment authorities are allowed to do Under the statute so we hold property we sell property we develop property that's what we do with the money it's not a lot of money it's so you have an account that you that the SR manages correct there's two accounts ASR manages and one of them is a general and one of them is for Charlotte Park okay and the money proposed coming in from the out the rest of the outdoor dining permits where will that money be set aside where will that be gone I is it going into the general fund or is it going into some other Des I believe general fund Rue I believe it's j but we can follow with just conf this is not the SR funding this is funding this proposed fee system yes we can verify that so anyone that doesn't go directly to the SR is going to go into some I I just how we trust me and the utmost confidence and attracting the money and how it's where it goes but it would be to me it's like at that point do we that's probably side compensation with obviously money is going to come to the city but how it's tracked and what account is going to because I would love to look at the possibility having the money going to account where we could then use that to for specific purpose as supposed to just general fund whether it's the sidewalk specifically in areas around Al dining or whether it's traffic cing issues or whether it's street lights or whatever I don't know I don't know pretend to understand what all it could be but whenever anyone says it's going to the general fund like it just goes to the general fund to disappear well you appropriate general f no I don't I don't trust me I the general the requirements of work of the general fund La there's not a lot of discretion over that we can follow and see I would imagine that just like any permit application like a building permit that money is in an account with the building department it's General funding that you'll see in the budget book as you know under the yes as long as we receipts thank you chair not being a member of the committee I have a couple of questions when this conversation first began a lot of the concern expressed by the owners of restaurants had to do with what was happening at the state level so how does this ordinance and our policy play into the requirements the abcc or a yes right abcc and do we have any insight into what and when will be required looking at 2024 if the government does not decide to the co coverage again so we are planning on all of our applicants going to the abcc for an alteration of prise because the plan is that these special allowance has been allowed here with respect to dining is going to end in the spr that's right and I know I know a lot of the concerns expressed from the res the restaurant owners has a lot to do with required internal bills and pling and all that kind of stuff and I think I think that I'm very in favor of a policy here in Salem I'm glad to see that that we're taking this up and we're going to talk about it but I know that that's also an outstanding concern and we don't want to add you know additional un burden but but as soon as we can better understand what those expectations are going to be I think the better my second question is the SR owned land for which the SR is collecting Fe if if they're in a license agreement is that property maintained by the city no the license agreement dictates who maintains the property and right now those property the businesses are required to maintain the property keep it shoveled snow keep it free of ice keep trash out of the way Paving and pring and I don't know I'd have to look into that that that infrastructure type work yes I'd be curious because I know a lot of the reason why we're having a fee based conversation is because because of the additional use of this this public space and if it's part partly going to be you know to to help the city then maintain these properties that are being used for the purpose and we want to make sure that Sr is either doing it as well or that we're somehow being compensated by the S to do that level of maintenance if that's the deal right sort of we're in this caner wheel of integrated webs but I want to make sure it's just really really clear and then another question I had just with regards to the S review for Stuff within the SR for properties within the SR area obviously the area I think I'm confused as to our responsibility or culpability in that conversation when it's s on property and so how does this change that level of oversight or or maybe it doesn't and I'm just confused so with respect so the way that this is drafted is that the council will have say on those uses in the streets in the parking spaces in any area that's not their renewal area so down right further down on ger street but the S as they always have went they free to the C perm we'll continue to do that we'll continue to review we'll still go to design review board know typ chairs umbrell and such but the fees for comp there are certain areas that are sub that are areas but that doesn't mean the SR owns the property right I yes I think that's the point of confusion I think that like we're just going to get a lot of questions about it with this I want to make sure we can answer them really clearly yes so the SR holds right St the brewery Turners the street CL valy down at area some walkways in and around like behind Street the walkway behind they well I'm thinking also that same area UE along to what was behind CA Rani which had Cafe seating as well is that's s on property behind Boston Burger yes I don't think so but I'd have to double check I think it's it's either City or private no no it's before it's like before the area yes I'll have to take a look at that yeah that be a curious little moment and then the last point I just want to again not being a member of the committee but my recommendation under section seven in the policy which is the season the policy okay sorry wey all right that's only conversation then for thein thank you chair Mar so I'm I'm in favor of the ordinance changes that's written I would just encourage we don't have jurisdiction the SR has the as Agreements are expiring and renewed to near the same cost I think to council McCarthy's Point that we have in the policy so that there isn't a equity issue with someone who's under the you know the perview of the SR versus a restaurant that's couple bucks away Council pres thank you chair is there a way that we can get a list of the restaurants that applying for open dining and maybe even expand that list the where they plan on putting that to how many chairs seats just we have a visual of exactly what we're looking at throughout the city every restaurant has its own unique challenges and when I say the word challenges it's it's challenging to own business and say restaurant business there's there's a lot of competition and there's a lot of cost involved anybody restaurants I know a lot of these people they don't own own their own properties they have to pay right they're going to be paying a little bit more I believe it's a150 a square foot I said I don't know how they how how we reach that figure or whether that's going to be hindrance or that's going to be easy for these customers I'm not sure but I think in my mind to make it easier for myself personally is to be able to have something to look at that I can take a look look at the restaurant seat what they outdoor seating that they're planning to do and where that seating is going to be because each one is unique and each one is individual I think we have we have to be pick from that thank you yeah so part of the process that we're going to get to with the policy is that the applicant would enter the online permitting process that we have for everything else every other permit and and part of it is a diagram how they're laying out their property the space the exact dimensions the height of their tables the whole thing so if you want to hold on to that question until we get to the policy does that does that make sense unless you're looking for a Citywide map that shows the locations currently and then as it moves forward and comes before us it right now in fact we're talking about the restaurants listen restaurants and say I see unique it's just kind let's wait till we get that because I think this isn't going to be a meeting that's going to end tonight something going to continue on for a while and you know at least be able to get all that information right so that's why the permitting process exist it's because they are all different and so that's why the licensing board and the srra they all have to get involved and give their feedback based on each so it's not a blanket authorization for whole list specific and going back to what council was was saying is you know I heard that the abcc requirement now that Co they're going to be stepping in and they're going to be also requiring a fee if it's if if it's allowed an expansion of their license they're GNA they're going to take their C too it's AAL application it's not significant time thing c yeah just quickly chair marel I want to respond to some Council pres he said so I do believe that the way restaurants and bars appli to the licensing board for 20123 that many of their applications will change based on the policies and the that we have Poli so I believe that some of them right now would probably request less space for example is they couldn't afford it so I think that is going to change the Cil Marc's Point as they have to get through the proc coun stop thank you chair not being member of the committee I I had a lot of questions that were answered by the conversations this evening but I'm just hoping can you super done down from the relation ship between what city council will approve and what Sr approves because like when I look at the SR M it's the entirety of the downn time no you said yes no the doesn't have any jurisdiction over this par spes correct so the council will handle those whatever District they're in and then there are a few outliners that aren't in the urban Ral area like Downy Street the S will approve most of the if the so I'm thinking of like all the sidewalks downtown so that's Sr s will review it they review it but it will still be part of the council review as well or if it's a sidewalk I do not believe Council gets involved with that okay so any sidewalks downtown Council will not get involved with licensing board the abcc and and disabilities and this it's being permanently closed in which point city council gets involved unless the sidewalk is being permanently closed a permit to regularly or permanently close an existing sidewalk only the issu by the city C so for example no ad that as opposed to the seasonal temporary close Okay so the like year round where this is just a seasonal policy well they they they shouldn't have closed year or even season you can still come gotta but any of the like other areas that we've been talking about not necessarily asone land but like I'm thinking you know Down The Pedestrian M like Village Tav the little you know just the sidewalk e none of that that's all just purely Sr approval yes okay so I'm curious of the list of those that have already been approved and the process for that and what the monitoring process for that is like the follow in accountability there are some that there's definitely creep of and what monitoring do we have to you know with the different permitting processes that like I understand the role but they're different kind of eyes on it yeah say so yeah and I agree with that if if we have these different bodies doing different approvals we should get as close as possible to what is you know the requirements and the fees and things like that and then I'm just curious if there's been any estimates done or if we I believe you said it was nominal fees in the past that were collected but from what fees were presenting tonight if there's an estimate of what we might be collected like in the first season that everybody had outdoor dining last year we'll have it next year for so the only calculations that we have th far for the parking spaces so we have 10 if they all go forward next year we have 10 locations and if we come up the number of spaces that they're using they all use the same spes 20 20 maybe 30 $30,000 if they all use the same space thank you that's higher than I was expecting but I would actually I would definitely second counil MC's comments about separating those funds because we could use those for like Ching barrier rules or enforcement compliance monitoring that's all I technology Finance director confirm general fund Revenue so be Lum together per rues we can set up a specific Revenue line just for this type of permit so it could be trans track but it still just be general fund thank you I thank you chair I don't have a problem with after clarifying jurisdiction with regards to specifically the ordinance I don't think the ordinance is fine my only question is Clarity in comparison the cafe FES you refer to them in the SR what is the duration of them when do they start when do they end so they start when they're issued and there's no expiration so we this Sr has never required in the past that a restaurant come back to renew that no I mean are they start are they from like May 15th to September 15th are they oh I see are they seasonal or could if they want to put a space heater out there can they be all year round or if there's a warm day in January can they throw a couple chairs out there a couple I'm just curious as to what their what their length of their what the length is they're allowed to operate sure so the S has never put a time a seasonality a time restriction a date restriction on their Cafe permits so and most of what they saw with the exception of like roer fellas with their patio Hotel Salem most of what they saw were a couple two-seater or four-seater Cafe tables which is probably why they called it the cafe permit and they were against the building so that was the majority of our review of these permits is just with the co allowances it just completely expanded up or dining into what we see today so it was a different it a different animal back then yeah but no they did not put any time restrictions or seasonality in their per so just to follow up on that it would now be an annual thing right because it would go through the same application process it is the same application process in the application that K and it is is fantastic it covers all the pieces it's to be it's going to be great for us for for team to be able to go in and see the actual that's issued and be able to pull up the plans or approved conditions from all the different boards that are going to be R it it's going to be a fantastic thank you and thank you chair again not being a member of I do have one last question on the ordinance because I I don't have the full ordinance text in front of me can you speak a little bit to the approval process from the building department when external space is built out because usually that's done by the restaurant owner some of the restaurant owners I know have done it by hand themselves and I am just for the Public's awareness curious as to what the building building or oversight is of so referring to the platforms yeah and any and anything Ram shackle siding you know boundary indicators anything like that right so the once the application comes in it gets reviewed the building department goes out make sure it's constructed as proposed they had to make some modifications last year a couple of them they had to bring the contract back in because they side couple of those and they go out periodically with the disability commission members to make sure that tables in the right spot so they did a this year anyone else we do have one raised stantis you can unmute good evening Steve capat S area Street S I just want to say thank you to everybody right this is a huge change from even preo when we started with park flots with outdoor dining there been continuous Improvement every year over year I want to say thank you to everybody that worked on this ordinance I also want to say thank you to the council members the commission members people from the building department that went out on their own time to talk to restaurants this year and kind of provide some education on where things could be improved so I really look forward to this being official now and going through a process and hopefully this will alleviate 90% of the accessibility issues thank you thank you thank [youc thank you thank you chair marcillo I would like to move that we refer the ordinance changes with a positive recommendation to the full coun counc was to refer the ordinance as amended with those few changes back to the full council with a positive recommendation for approval seconded by councillorall those in favor doose the matter carries 3 to zero okay now we can move over to the actual policy all right so I thought maybe we should just take this item item by and I will point out where the changes have come in where where we put in the specifications with the new process and the new fees okay so the outdoor City exam outdoor dining policy number one is applicability the City of Salem dining outro dining policy applies to restaurant businesses that are seeking to extend their licensed premises to a public area including sidewalks streets and public space parking spaces but shall not include a sidewalk in the city's urban renewal districts for which a permit from the Salem Redevelopment Authority shall be required any questions seeing none question thises is apply one of my pet pees on o I think it's great I enjoy it mentally but is when you got and out to a dining area that extends beond the boundaries of the building the restaurant's hous so that that somewhere else thank you problem SE sure okay section two City's right to revoke obtaining approval from the city and all relevant permitting Departments of the city to operate an after dining area does not create a contractual or property right or interest any business receiving such approval shall be deemed a leny of the city and must ensure that there they are operating in a safe and responsible Manner and must understand that any violations of State Federal Municipal laws rules and regulations this policy or of any agreement with the city may result in the immediate revocation of the license or other approved or other approval issued to operate the outdoor dining area the city may require lcy to remove their patio at the expense of the ly upon demand any questions Council he was the enforcement model for that so as we would now if it's a li license establishment we would call for here if it is not Li license establishment say just AA about liquor we could also bring it in for a hearing it's unusual to have that butes ises so in the instance where hearing is called for what is the delay between them still being allowed to run their business on a daily basis in the day of they're hearing if it is a life safety issue then the board would tell to immediately stop whatever whatever action it is otherwise it's a 10 and if they're told to immediately stop and they don't what happens then so it could be be a replication of further action to cause to REM I think you know where I'm going at what point do we litigate so do you mean if a liy refuses to take up their I mean if a ly continues to run their business on a daily basis and they had taken absolutely no action in response to the city's revocation so the city could it was was parking space City could remove the equipment store location them to retrieve you know we could have enforce police action to make that happen great thanks okay anyone else moving on to part three this is where we have made some changes as far as the permits and Licensing so PR is requirements for all outdoor dining areas a permits and licenses food and or alcoholic beverages may not be served outside of license premises even on a temporary basis without An approved outdoor dining area license and the written approval of the Salem licensing board expanding the licensed premises all outdoor dining areas shall maintain all necessary permits to maintain to remain active most licenses and permits must be renewed annually the local permits and licenses necessary may include one outdoor dining area license two this is the new one Building Commissioner approval three licensing board approval four Sal Redevelopment Authority approval including design review board five saling Board of Health approval six this is new disability commission review and recommendation to licensing board and seven additional licenses permits or permissions may be required in special cases any questions on that the new inclusion of the Building Commissioner and the disabilities commission Council thank you CH through to St with the disciplin ability commissioner year recommendations go licing the building commission because the building commission is the enforcement agency for 8 compliance so right but the Building Commissioner doesn't issue a license so what happens now is the Building Commissioner will sign off the back Li okay but if there was a disability commission review or there was an ADA compliance issue with an outo site would that go to the licensing board to fix that or go to the building commission commission okay that was the make confusion because the building commission is the enforcement Authority for 8 compliance of the license right theing has issue so go thank you anyone else see B codes all applicants and under dining areas must comply with all state and Municipal codes and Americans with Disabilities Act requirements see there's a few changes in here just one actually yeah sure thanks couple of things really wanted to say how grateful I was to work with the chair and the other Commissioners we went to every single establishment that was either licensed or was going to be licensed because there were on a couch do and I think we saw a lot of stuff that I learned more than I expected we had a commissioner who educated us about asking establishments for example if there was someone who was blind who wanted to see the menu because not all blind people re Grail would the people in the in the restaurant the bar we commending to them for example we we saw issues with almost every establishment but most of them it was unintentional innocent mistakes we also unfortunately saw some really dramatic things that I think are going to be addressed in the policy but just to coun McCarthy's Point or question several times the then acting building inspector we were able to kep to her and she almost immediately went out to the place and corrected it and since then I've actually been in a couple of places and seeing her and staff go out to the restaurant and or bar and tell them that oh you know you need an accessible table or whatever so I think this has been an ongoing process since we did our project together and I feel like it's really informed me about the quality of this thank you anything else C is location of outdoor premises the outdoor area where business May extend its premises for outdoor dining must be contiguous to the brick and mortar license premise contiguous is defined as adjacent and may be separated by a public sidewalk and there is either a a clear view of outdoor seating from inside the premises or alternatively be the LED May commit to providing management Personnel dedicated to the area for the latter the area is still physically contiguous to the licensed prices but not visible for example there are no windows or the brick and mortar is in the basement of the outdoor area and the outdoor area is in the public way such as a sidewalk or in the parking spaces a patio that is on the curved side of a sidewalk and or in a parking travel Lane is contiguous parking lots or back areas may also be considered contiguous the outdoor dining area may not extend beyond the storefront of the restaurant unless all adjacent property owners in which the area extends have submitted the a letter stating their acceptance of the proposed dining area this should include the city of Salon if it is an adjacent property owner and I just want to point out I think that the original submission they were just a whole words missing and that was the change it was missing in point a a clear view of outdoor seating it was missing of outdoor seting so that was the only change there I do have a question though and that's the use of the word should this should sh sh thank you so we're going to change that to sh okay any other questions councel thank you chair Melle not being a member of the committee I just wanted to say that I appreciate this language with all the restaurants having really different front areas some have you know some have more sidewalks some have more parking spaces everything is configurated so differently for every single location I think this gives the allowance for some judgment call to make it a little bit more equable I as I look at this I I think that was you know probably the goal of this and I think it achieves that I think we we do want to have you know we' seen all of it come a long way you know everybody needed the outo done immediately during Co but then it was problematic creating a compliance and other issues and I think this tightens a lot of that up but it also has bals for for some of the flexibility here as long as there's oversight to that flexibility so that's what speaks to me here in this you know in this description here so I just wanted to make that point and I appreciate thankk you anyone else I thanks chair not being a member of the committee I think I struggle a little bit with the clear view of the outdoor seating from inside the premises only because I know that we have had a problem this past year particularly of people leaving outdoor dining areas with alcoholic beverages as if we are a city that drinking we are not and I think in every instance much to to counselor Cohen's Point before it was not due to a lack of oversight per se it was just sort of due to a lack of like immediate Staffing being present in the outdoor space and so I I would be curious and I'm really hung up on it like I know I'm not even sure necessarily what I'm recommending except that I think that that may require some additional thought or some some additional conversation around having some person outside whether it be a host or some sort of physical presence that is a responsible party of the of the restaurant because we didn't see an increase in that and I sat up personally multiple times and had to report it to to the restaurant owners and it was simply because like you know weight staff were just serving all the tables so I I just want to put that the table and say maybe we should we should give that some more consideration talk to folks Council thank you chairman also that I see you use the word may you know we just we just clarified shall should to shall so of course I'm going from May to will because U may maybe interpreted have different interpretations so would it be a stretch or or would it be not in the city's fa favor that you wrote pul of back areas it says now May also be considered or you right will be considered I don't see a much of a difference there but the next section it says the outdoor dining area may not extend should should that be will not extend looking we use the word May so that we have some flexibility if it's too far off I'm thinking about one particular area where they can't see them at all we were looking at at not names but they were looking at a space around so of not even near their their entrance was sort of in the back area and we have to say no because you didn't have any Sidelines and was too far away from from where your doors were you know this building you know I think we may I have if if you're fine enforc purposes that's right thank you Cy thank you chair if the adjacent property owners in which the area stands have submitted letter standing their acceptance of the proposed D so you have XYZ bar restaurant and they convince the whoever's got the space next to them to say we're going to extend we're going to do allo dining you don't do allo dining but we want extend PR how does that work with entrances into the outdoor dining because now you've got you've got your adjacent business that people are going to be coming in and out of that business that have no intention of being in outdoor dining and all of a sudden you've got way staff that you know maybe they're going to serve the p and now they're going to be cutting in front of another business where people going to be walking out of that business creating potentially a bottleneck on the sidewalk where before was it's clear and contiguous someone's walking up their front door and then walking straight across into the outdoor dining area they serving the dining so when the dining area extends beyond their footprint does the outdoor dining areas is still separated in such a way that it's not accessible from another location so let's take O'Neal for example okay I don't want to pick so they have extended they used to share space with but decided not to do it this year so we have that area it has not been a problem umina shares space for the wallet Cemetery the Verona got permission from their into that space that space I'm just trying to think examples of where Happ I think in all the examples you're giving we're talking about the parking spaces in front of the other businesses we're not talking about the sidewalks so I'm wondering please correct me but was that sentence that con C is referring to specifically speaking to the parking spaces in front of other businesses versus the sidewalk in front of other businesses and do do we care either way yeah should we worked on this as a committee so I what the intent was to be honest my think was the par spaces because I don't think we have many that on the side extent so I'm thinking of the shared space between Mercy Tavern and wolf next door actually is a is an Extended space yeah which they should yeah yes and who's got oversighted that though like from them like who's responsible for maintenance of that space do they share it legally or is it so right now mercy and I just have agreement with the mon sor the other wolf property yeah I mean I don't if I make the I don't I understand there's a park I mean obviously there's a parking space it's going to be part of another business so potentially you're having the I mean as long as they're signing off on it I get it but for me it's like now is that outdoor dying area situated in such a way that there's barriers of natural boundaries between the space and the other business because theoretically someone could come out of that other business straight into in a dining area that is now nothing to do with that business that's supposed to be connected to the other business and logistically I mean I'm sure it works every place but me that's potential be problem right I'll put some you know what I'm trying to say is because they're come on the idea is it's connected to this one business but the appearance is it's in front of two businesses and there isn't a clear boundary on the sidewalk that separates the out Go dining that's in parking space from the other business even though the business is allowed to extend in front of them then potentially you have you have a where someone a server from the other business that was walking in front of the other business and runs into somebody walking out the front door that business they're not pay attention they not they're not of anything else see design requirements restaurants must ensure that outdoor seating areas remain accessible to the public in accordance with the Ada public RightWay accessibility guidelines and a Massachusetts architectural access boards regulations these include requirements both for the layout dining area the Pres the preservation of the public realm and the actual Furniture utilized in the dining the out dining areas and then two all outo dining area patio designs within the urban renewal districts must go through the S and Redevelopment Authority design process including the design review board and be approved by the SR Council thank you CH I have a question for the solicitor planer both we had mentioned Adriatic they had variance or something I know a lot of people who go there or try to pass by there didn't know that and didn't feel it was accessible so does an agreement that place like and supersede this policy or vice versa once this policy isri put my age head back on I'll go back to when the dirty tab on the Square was pered and it turned into a big cluster relative to the word contiguous and out was permited and the they closed the sidewalk off between their outdoor dining and phasically the door creating a situation where they put up a rope B of W and make people walk all the way around the so their argument the argument made back then when it per was they can still be on the sidewalk and walk around the outdoor dining but they didn't want people cutting through the outdoor dining right so the abcc has changed their position on that okay we had a lot to do with that they will all us to issue license agreements on the sidewalk so the ABC's position was that wasn't licensed meaning abcc license prises so the city can grant license agreements which we will be doing here so that that SL becomes continuous as far as the is concerned okay which because there was a couple times this past year I saw that they because because once again the instance that I described previously with an unknowing business that someone's walking out of the business in this sense you know you got way staff you know that are coming out of the door that like to just be able to cross the sidewalk now anticipate someone Crossing in front of them and I saw a couple times they had the ROP up you know unfortunately most people just ignore go over under whatever around but as long as that's cover yes okay per so just to clarify is that does that mean that the sidewalk is going to be open again the sidewalk can be open again yes soon as we license AG all right any other questions see smoking no smoking of any kind including the use of electronic cigarettes is allowed in the designated dining area pets no pets are allowed in the designated dining areas with the exception of service animals or if the establishment has received approval from the Board of Health to allow pets in the outdoor dining nness Council Pres I'm a dog owner not I take my dog down to and D but I see other people doing it a lot of the establishments what is going to be the criteria that allows the city to perm in one area for pets and another one so the border of Health has a separate application for aot of pets in our so there's a link to that on the application system that we have set up so the separate they have and can get now have and can you speak to some of the rules that make a place acceptable for pet and others that don't I can only tell you that they are required to be outdoors no I've never looked at the we not person I understand I do have follow question we may not know the answer but I think well in my opinion there should be some sort of a some something that you can see it says that they have the approval to have pets in the outdoor area right now I don't think that there is so yeah I'm a dog myself but at the same sense it's some sort of signage on the dining that states that a they different and be that if someone else that is partaking of up to dining or is a choice between going inside or outside and if they don't happen to be a dog over and if they don't want to be outside next to a dog then they have the option to go in but there also there a signage that says this outdoor dining or is pet friendly whatever it says that way someone will know that there potentially could be a dog sitting next to them at the table next right next to canc stop thank along with signs I know we love signs here in the city so much but I think that that's great to have an indicators to whether or not your is welcome or not but I was also thinking along the open containers yeah and I don't know if that's part of the design section but I think some sort of signage in I don't know if it would fall under like licensing or abcc real but something that like open container like you can't leave the leave the B with your alcoh TR okay letter G is patrons all patrons are required to wear shirts and shoes no that's apparently I'm not sure where that came from to you stole this yeah no shoes shirt H is trash Recycling and compost businesses must use their own trash Recycling and composting receptacles okay part four additional requirements for after dining area in the public way public sidewalk and public street parking space City Review when considering a request for outdoor dining in a public area the city Redevelopment Authority city/ Redevelopment Authority will review and determine the health and safety risk to the public as well as pedestrian and Ada accessibility the public way includes a sidewalk and Street and then number one under that the city May revoke a grant of the use of a public way and require immediate removal of the dining setup if it is later deemed unsafe an emergency situation arises or if the business is not operating in accordance with all permits and licenses part two restaurants looking to extend into City on land or looking to occupy more than two parking spaces will be considered on a case by case basis by the city and or S questions that's thank you this may be my confusion why more than two parking spaces I thought we had to approve any parking space use we do have to I think this was put in there so that the expectation would be that two elit if you really wanted more it's going to be an exception so let me make that walk clear in thank you thank you chair Marc after if it is deemed if it is later deemed unsafe I'd like to suggest that we add in accept so if it is later G save or unacceptable anything else counc this one thank you to City and not operating in the courts with all the permits and licenses the permits and licenses for out dining specifically say how often they have to be open because one of the complaints I get is you get an out to a dining area that they want out to a dining and they're taking up space good for them but they're not utilizing it they're not they're not opening up for lunch they're not opening they're only opening up on Thursdays Fridays and Saturdays because the other day days it's not they don't deem it profitable or whatever whatever the business model is but all of a sudden now you've got you got an area that's city property or S property or whatever but they're not utilizing it as to the permit so does the permit specify no how often does the permit specify whether or not they I guess this one Sr think specifically to it U ones that are perent in Street as you see a lot of them try to Define that outdo din here by you know putting up lights you know umbrellas or whatever is there any requirement as to how long they keep their lights on because you and I have had this conversation on the side is I've got a couple spaces that I really think that the city you know should be looking at add a couple ballets to because now a sudden there have some outdoor dining areas that are permanent outdoor that outdoor dining areas obviously this time of the year or in the winter time and you've got a bump Bo now be specific dirty Street in front of the witches bro you got a bump out that there's no the traffic lane is on the left hand side and as a traffic measure we bumped up you know witches bre in Mercy and now all of a sudden you've got the witches room that's you know they're in their own process and that's their business but they weren't opening very limited this year and now right now because they're not open they're not they're open limited that building is dark you now you got an outdoor area that is obviously it's defined as a sidewalk but it definitely should be ball or some sort reflective something it's going to indicate the traffic that's flowing down there the first time person's never down that street it's going to just drive over that curve that's just my opinion so that think that will fall special conditions because specific places okay so figure out way to capture that think responsibility that will be who box yeah I mean for that specific one once again I'm not trying to pick on anyone business but that one specifically sticks out of my mind because we did make a we as a city you know with traffic out the sidewalk created beautiful two beautiful outdoor dining spaces for the restaurants and maintaining the sidewalk but at the same time that it's now this time of the year you're driving on dirty Street if you're not paying attention it comes up on you the fact that the street set up to the left because the park is on the right and you're going down all of a sudden you're supposed to ease to the right and there's nothing to indicate because there's no lights or anything there should be something to indicate that hey you got to ease over whether it's a just a simple wall with floresent tape around or something that you're driving on let me ask okay I want to note that Council has joined us remotely okay any other questions on that section see part five indemnification agreement restaurants seeking to serve alcohol in the public way will be required to enter into a maintenance and deification agreement and to maintain certain insurance coverage as required by the city solicitor anybody okay with that okay part six fees that there is a charge for the use of the public we for businesses with outdoor dining areas on a sidewalk there is an annual fee of $11.50 per square foot in addition to the related licensing and permits fees due to the City of Salem in the addition of that $150 is new is new to this language Part B for the use of a parking space there shall be a fee of $1,000 paid annually to the City of Salem per parking space for street closure the calculation of the fee will be based on the length of the street occupied at the rate of $1,000 per 20 ft and then part C businesses using Jersey barriers in their outdoor dining setup will be charged a fee of $100 per barrier used per year the City of Salem will place and remove barriers at the beginning and end of each Pao season Council thank you chair Marcel so this came from U I have some questions that came from a couple of establishments if a restaurant a bar is required to purchase additional part parking if the parking space doesn't line up exactly with their building so for example the spaces are 20 ft long but if they need 24t do they have to buy a third space which would be another $1,000 does that question Mi yes so the let me just tell you where the math came from so The Parking Department went out and looked at the meter spaces and what 100% utilization and 50% so the average parking space at 50% utilization the income to the city is between 850 and 1250 for the season so EXC me so that's where the, came from at 50% realization so the city is going to lose the use of three parking spaces even though only using two and a half I would arue that it's three parking spaces okay but that's the will okay and I do have a question about the actual cost so without naming specifics at $1150 cents per square foot and if it's this the equivalent at two parking spaces is approximately 240 Square ft so if you have a sidewalk a widen sidewalk you would be paying $360 but if you using two parking spots that would be the equivalent area You' be pay paying $2,000 and I'm not suggesting that we make it even but there's a difference between for the same amount of space I don't know if this was considered the difference between 2 and 360 right so the it's about a quarter to use Salk quarter of of the space because we're losing the Reven you're losing the part so the thinking was that parkes is far more valuable to to the city to community than the use of please coun I'm sorry thank you CH sorry I threw it up there earlier based on what when you came up with a number based on how much per hour for space obviously like parking met is closer to downtown closer to the courthouse I'm way more per hour than a parking meter in the Willows right so the chart that parking did all it went through each space for example all the park a dollar and then adri so that's where the range came from from 850 to 1250 so we came under and that was I'm sorry those prices were at 50% realization yes okay anything else I'll share that spreadsh with you stop I'm thinking everyone maybe two establishments that they're not necessarily utilizing a parking space but they're using the street so they would be paying the street fee but utilizing the street requires the unutilized so at the end of six Street I can't think Old Main Street it's Main Street they have Bing right in front and you can no longer use the parking spots on the other side because the traffic is now converted so they would be in public Street which has a fee and then also those spaces are no longer they're not using them they're no longer utilized right so the way I looked at that one is it's just switching or would have been a driving rain so they thank you we're all trying to and not sing about any restaurant by name but when you look at parking when you look at parking spaces at some point you def find what the parking space is because I can think of one restaurant that the parking space out in front of the restaurant used to be a 12 spot so that parking space is pretty big so if the argument I just said a parking space should be defined by it's 20t 20 yeah 20t because if if it's not clearly painted on the sidewalk at 20 ft the assumption would be okay it's a to us that's probably at least two maybe two and a half parking spaces and so that would be an indicator of how big what the feed chart would be just saying so at some point in the document Define parking space because it's it's for a residential car not for a bus or a truck or Serv anything else see around okay we are on chart seven this is the season the outdoor dining season on the public way extends from the first Friday in May through the first Monday in November lenses are responsible for removing and storing any out dining equipment in the off seon applicants May request a waiver from the city council to keep their outdoor dining area open year round provided they take reasonable steps to prevent obstruction of snow Ral councel Watson vote thank you chair not being a member of the committee I do have two questions on this one the first question is are we allowing for the application of the pering process to begin at any point during the active season or are we going to require there to be a last day preceding the first day of the Open Season by which you must apply we have not set that because we may have a new license over we so at any point anyone can sort of just start as long as they get through the process within sometime of the Season no no no reir okay that's great and then the second question is it's not really a question it's a recommendation to the Ola committee for consideration to please add a time limit within which you must or by which by by the end of which you must remove all of your things at the end of the season that was some of the negative feedback we received about some of the AO dining stuff last year was that stuff sort of seemed to be abandoned for X number of weeks while owners were sort of trying to get their stuff together and of course as we all know the weather picks up in the winter season and so there was also concern about that so I would appreciate just a consideration of some kind of you know grace period but by the end of which you must have everything removed I think that period is when the when the barriers are removed that's like you can't have stuck in the street after those barriers are removed have barriers and also I I mean the barriers require much more organized removal than the stuff so I don't know just something to consider counc thank you CH so I've also had this conversation with the city solicor as recently as a couple weeks ago I think there should be some language added that it's a you know we allow this Go dining it's all great all a sudden the weather you know October's over it's 1 November and you decide you're going back inside all of a sudden you got an outdoor space that you know especially the ones that are in the street or on the side or in parking spaces you got an outdo space that had chairs tables picnic tables umbrellas lights and all of a sudden boom one day you come in as a business owner and you clean up great ready for the City become but if it's not coordinated with the city then what you've created now is a dark empty space in the middle sticking out into a street that has the potential for harm because it's not lit anymore it's not it's not it's not viable it's not there's nothing that indicate that other than a jersey barrier I think that's problematic so I think it also CAU in the language in here is you know after November 1st the outdoor dining applicant shall coordinate with the city and on as to the timing and the removal of the barriers which so coincide with REM their removal of their own own tables chairs and whatnot because you can't have you can't have they come in and take off the chairs table down all the lights and then two weeks later the city's taking Jersey D down has to be some sort of coordinated eff and I think that that happened this year we tried to reach out to a couple of the businesses to say Hey you know I'll take all your likes on until we're ready to come in in start taking Jersey bar down because you know this time of the year you know gets darker earlier you know now you get kids coming home from school you know it's just a different type of atmosphere than it is in the summertime so I think that that should be part of it the other thing is the someone just mentioned it as to when people can apply obviously you know at what point you know someone a just rented leas the space getting into it and then they want to do Al n that's one thing but all of a sudden someone decides they look at the Landscaping you know all of a sudden in September they want to add out diet is there a per ra fee or is it a flat fee per year and to be honest with you I've always felt that you know outdoor dining is seasonal but October is like the bonus and it's almost like if you want to keep you know you want to add or keep add outo ding just for the month you know for the last six weeks or if whether not those last six weeks should come with a different another fee structure on top of it because when you look at everything we're talking about Equity parking all of that during the month of October we all know what the pressure and the constraints are across the board with regard to all of those things and outto dining is an asset and it's an asset for from April May until September but from September to November 1st and November 15 that becomes a big time profit for the businesses because when you you know you look at you know basing a fee on 50% occupancy well I'll tell you in the month of October it's not 50% occupancy on that parking space it's 100% occupancy on the parking space so we did not complete Pro I would not support that in any sh I'm just throwing up there because I mean some people will I mean trust me when I register my truck it's either you pay six months or you pay the whole year it's nothing like depends where you register so I would think it's a flat feed should be the whole year if you have it for three months or six months whatever it is so I'm just C thank you Shar being a member of the committee along those lines of the timing I had two questions well one kind of common and then question but with the timeline agree with it all that has been said which should be a flat Fe no matter when it starts but I think it would be good to have a suggested apply by date for a m start because there are a lot of things that they need to go through and get approved and meetings that need to happen so you don't want someone coming in April 15th and being like I want to start May 1 it's going to take a couple months so I'm guessing like you know applicants are suggested to apply at least 90 days prior to May something like that so so we just want to make sure that that's very clear if we can have some sort of lineing about that and then I just want to clarify is this annual application or once it's permanent it's good once it's permanent it's good what if there's change of ownership or so with a legal license establishment we have to go to the abcc process the licing bo it's a change ofip we weren't contemplating change anything so I guess that's my only a comment to that is if it's perpetual you know Ren Auto renews in a sense every year but we're asking them to take it down and put it back up so it's just back to the enforcement and they reviewing and making sure that they're still following the same lines and there's no scope create there's no the accessibility isn't change you know everything is kind of the same year to year without you know there are going to be a lot eyes on it reviews on it at the initial permitting but we want to just make sure the enforcement or the review of it right the lenses do have to go and get a renewal every year from the licensing board they just have to subit the packet and they're they're approved at one meeting but if there are issues they're held out from the group had that done in the past where those issues are addressed sorry I do have a follow question to the councillorpoint so because the fees are annual so they would be tied to that license renewal process which would go back to the timing around intent to renew as well I think right so all all licenses have to be from the licensing board right have to be submitted by the end of this month to be red for January one okay great so this would follow gotcha so maybe this similar to the guidance language around timing maybe there's a statement that just said like renewal timing best practice whatever awesome thanks can thank you chair Marcel so two things so I also feel like without speaking for the Commissioners that the disability commission intends on surveying establishments yearly to because it's really educational like it was a letter and letter is resources I think there's going to be a lot of stuff that's going to be posted on their part of the website I actually agree in principle with Council McCarthy it would be great ideally to have like a standard you know cost system but it's not practical I mean right now our DPS is down over 20% staff and I don't I just don't believe that we could practically manage a stag system where people could buy into it just for a long so I think everyone should conform to the full deal and I think that also addresses houn McCarthy's concerns about safety and life thank you chairman not being a member of the committee I also just wanted to say I understand Council Weston feld's Point about the things and degree from the outdoor dining being left around you know as a lot of it you know left out for length of time I do support having just some kind of grace period to remove it and and get it off the side Sidewalk and Street areas as far as trying to coordinate doing that with the city I don't think that's practical that they would try to wait and remove their stuff because the city has to do something as she said that you know City's very busy and I I think that would be really hard on a restaurant say well City's coming in two weeks so do that now actually with the key spot so the ones on dirty Bambina for example r with H wolf with some of those areas the lighting is important just doing that as a matter okay thank you okay so that is something you know that is feasible to do to remove it at the same time great and I also appreciate the points too to make sure the barriers have really you know reflective you know and notifications on it that there was a change in the road coming up so thank you coun chair three two so this year is The Big Year so everyone gets in they get their applications in they get their design approved they get their layout approved they someone certifi 7 square feet they they know what that bill is going to be so they you know this why we want to get the St now so they can all start applying and get getting the queue so to speak so next so they all get through this year so next year they come to they come to the licensing board say we want to we yes we want to maintain our outo dining as we did last year no changes great now obviously still going to cause a review by the building department what what fee does the building department get what fee does the Board of Health get they still each one of those each one of those entities should in my opinion should have a fee associated with because they're kind of come out and do an inspection I mean the building department you know it's nice that the disabilities commission and the building department walk room is an informational thing but when they're going out and they got to make sure that the space is ada8 compliant and to make sure that the contractor whoever it is that reconstructing the space after last year make sure that the lips lined up and there is no drop so I mean there there should be some sort of fee associated with the process I that's just my opinion so we didn't break out the fee because it's go to general fund we didn't you know break it out for our department they going to help us get their annual fees for the renal of their permits for all the restaurants and know the building department only gets permits we didn't build enough fee for building department specifically I mean what what other departments are under the policy go back to the page so the licensing board gets an annual fee for the license depending on whether it's common or what Ty of alcohol they serve it's or the bo of Health gets their annual fee for their health permits building do not get theual Fe that I'm aware of I guess I guess she puts to that I mean obviously they're going for a building permit permit has fee based on X am for right so whatever the value is I me obviously that's hard to determine because you know some people put on picking tables and some people putting a c umbrellas so I mean I mean but you know you know rer and her department is going at some point going to have to go do an inspection with that comes to cost so is is that cost rolled into the into the fee or is it on top of it is it like fee that on top of this if it's one space or whatever it's $1,000 plus a couple hundred bucks for you have three or four Jersey barriers is there also a fee for I mean the licensing board's getting NE on there what they're getting the board of health is going to have to come and inspect so which they they come and inspect main prises but does that does that inspection include the exil so I I'm just throwing up there because the building department and the Board of Health are going to have to put eyes in sign off on this on a yearly basis that those fees that structure Incorporated in the base F or is on top that's my question that's something I need to talk to about the time part the mar but we did not include an ex does the building department go out and do regular inspections of restaurant space anyway and they include the fire department so I've been two different places where Lula and fire maral were doing a regular inspection and and during one of them the J was on Canal Street they actually actually told the owner that their outdoor space which is not part of this policy because it's enclosed didn't have an accessible dat so I I really feel like that's part of like their Ono so you guys are going to talk anything else on that section we'll get a spreadsheet on the Fe came up yes okay all right no we were just season okay all right part eight time restrictions outo dining areas will be allowed to operate during the businesses approved business hours unless otherwise directed by the licensing board B the city council or licensing board May limit late night hours for those businesses not able to keep sound levels within a reasonable limit everybody good okay part 10 enter or part nine entertainment live entertainment piped in music or television is not permitted in the outdoor dining area unless approved by the city's licensing board part 10 design requirements a outdoor dining areas in the public way that are not set up on the sidewalk or on the sidewalk in combination with seating and parking spaces must be curbed side that are set up did I say not okay sorry that are set up on the sidewalk or on the or on the sidewalk in combination with seating in parking spaces must be curbside and access to utilities utility access points catch basins and manholes must be maintained throughout the seating area in the parking Lane the gutter must be free of debris Part B any outdoor area in the parking Lane may be required to protect all sides of the patio facing travel with Jersey barriers or similar material deemed appropriate by the police traffic division part C other design requirements will be determined by the appropriate City departments any questions councel stop thank you man turn not being a member of the committee for B the outdoor area in a parking Lane may may be required to protect all sides is that just so not all like three sides are protected because I that's been I think a huge concern in a lot of the I mean if it's if it's in a parking spot it's in a traveling and course traveling in that direction and there are a few that do not have I think appropriate barrier set up so that may word really concerning be requirement so the police traffic division has been they've advised the DPW on which ones they require have the Jersey barriers but certainly up to the council anybody else feel strong me about that but I have seen some concerning items that at least on that or at least maybe put a requirement on the side of like the direction the traffic is coming from or something like it seems like I've seen many not going to name names because there are actually a few that I can think of right now that there's no barrier on the side that the traffic is directly or no Jersey C barrier C thank you I think the word made should be probably will but as a clarification I know that the police department takes seriously the ability the safety factor involved when the outdoor dining in case of an errant vehicle whether it's malicious or by accident the pedestrians and the diners have to have some form of decent protection so I know that it's on a Case by case basis but the the police department will insist that there' be some some kind of a barrier be put in place if there's a possibility of an a vehicle and entering that promises that would helpfully the flat door or stop the vehicle from from coming in so they'll do their due diligence on that part but the word will I think would strongly enforce the business owner to to comply with that or shall so I think so if I guess my suggestion would be that it shall be in the direction of the so let's take for the traffic traveling into the down to Plaza the Jersey valy will be on that side and not the other side right that here okay there's no traffic FL up towards that are hopefully I mean you're talking about aing right that's true that's true still in the street I think that's where counil stops coming maliciously it could be quite the opposite exactly Council M thank you chair not being a member of the committee I think that's a great question and I'd be curious as to why the police are using May and I'm thinking maybe in some instances I don't know the exact size of Jersey barriers but maybe it makes the lane on the outside to narrow so but that's not helpful for protection and it's even more dangerous so I I think that's an interesting question as to why they they chose that language yeah I that would be a good question get answered by law enforcement that is exactly why some are like Washington across the line right it would be too intrusive into the traffic but that also speaks to it being being pretty close to moving traffic but that's the only reason I can think of either yeah is that it's just just making the bump out a little too far and then that the you'd have to go around it is more dangerous than if they were just going right by the by the by the tables so yeah that's definitely uncomfortable it certainly Council thank you chair being a member of the committee while we're talking about this issue I have big concerns about pedestrian visibility navigating across streets AC crosswalks where there is a really close proximity to Jersey barriers and outdoor dining there have been multiple incidences of near misses during daylight hours and in the evening simply because it is it is now incumbent upon the pedestrians to to step out into traffic past the edge of an outdoor dining barrier so that they can see tra traffic and therefore also be seen which is a really dangerous issue especially in October when we have so many pedestrians and I'm curious to see how that how consideration for that level of safety shows up here in this policy because I'm not seeing it called out I'm not seeing it called out here particularly around design requirements but I'm wondering if there's an opportunity there there there's you know we don't technically allow even vehicular parking within a certain number of feet from a crosswalk and yet we have outdoor dining establishments where their boundaries are right up on that white line and I'm I have really big concerns about it and I can think of at least three instances right now that again will not be Nam but I do think needs addressing so I don't I would look to the to the police department as well to advise City Council on on how best to handle that whether it's a combination of lighting or distance or what have you things ccor McCarthy I have a question where if I may with regard to design if I I don't want to name but U I got there's one outdoor dining area that is designed in such a way that the Jersey barriers are protecting a bike L and so who pays for the Jersey barriers because the outdoor dining exists and then they have their own barrier and then there's a bike lane and then there is a jersey barrier so if they get in charge $100 a barrier and is the city picking up the cost of protect white plane or is the is the outgo dying area picking up the cost for the Jersey barriers that are protecting the bike lane because the reason why we're protecting the bike lane is because the done it just only it comes into design the question of design and if the design warrants that and that's the way it was approved then I think the cost should go onto the business because if it wasn't there then we wouldn't need it corre so I just I'm just trying to foro an argument that well those Jersey barriers my D those are Jersey barriers I of protect the bike lane but the but it was designed in such a way to protect that bike lane so therefore they should be buring that cost I would argue that they are in the dining they just have to be set out further because of the I would I would I would agree but when I read that I just wanted to make sure that's it's clear thank you ccor thank you m just to reinforce the safety aspect of it and councillorWatson's comments about the crosswalk location we talked a lot about location of outdoor premises and parking spaces and things like that but I think that that would be good spot to know that you know it has to be with you know daylighting has to be available for crosswalks you can't be taking up space that's not a parking space or not a travel L like there we already have rules about intersections and crosswalks when it comes to cars and and daylighting and visibility and I think we should make sure that this follows those to a degree and the location section doesn't really have any of that right now and it probably would I don't necessarily think it's design it's it's pure location anything else okay part 11 is increment weather lenes should exercise sound judgment in in suspending outdo dining during bad weather such as high winds thunderstorms or snow lenes shall secure and anchor all equipment or bring it inside the restaurant during inclement weather and in the event of a Stow emergency ensure the boundaries of the dining outer dining area are visible to snow plows straight forward okay Part 12 removal of area if an approved lensey removes their outdoor dining area prior to the end date of the program the lcy shall notify the city's licensing board unused outdoor dining areas may be deemed abandoned and restaurants must remove them the city May remove abandoned property after after providing sufficient notice questions Council thank you chair Mar this is great but it doesn't have any specificity to it so for example I think there should be notice to the city if they are going to remove their stuff for you know 10 days whatever because otherwise they just do it and then you know to C this point and we have haard whatever so I don't know if we could add in you know that early removal the city must be notified 10 days or whatever you think is appropriate and is your object is the objective to make sure that the barriers are also like what so the whole area is cleaned up okay does that make sense then 10 okay thank you I had a similar comment around the unused outdoor dining areas may be deemed abandoned I don't like when like how how are we gauging that that that lack of use so that's a good question could use the same 10day what happens now with li license establishments is you must know the license in board if you're going to be closed for more than 30 days we could use that same 30-day time period so personally I think that that sounds great a it's consistent they already kind of know what the rules are that there supp be following anyways and so taing out of that makes a lot of sense also it gives enough space if there is something like a or an emergency or some sort of situation so I would go with that recommendation for sure anything else okay part 13 maintenance permanent establishments are required to pick up degree in clean the designated dining area at the end of each business day part 14 outdoor dining area license a all applicants must enter into an outdoor dining area license agreement with the city of Salem's licensing board B all applicants must meet the following criteria to be eligible one possess a valid common vit thank you license two be in good standing with the licensing board three being good standing with the Board of Health C the application for an outdoor dining area agreement with the city of Sal will require plans photographs and other materials deemed necessary by the city solicitor questions Council Merkl thank you chair Miss it's actually on the one above it for maintenance it just went on really quickly and yeah but the language of course is fine and also the language previously in number eight on the other page for trash and recycling is fine I just in the conversations of the perming process for someone that's down town to really emphasize how quick Our Little Critters are when there is garbage outside even a bird on an untaken plate you know staff is in and out people leave their tables everybody's clearing tables outside but there's no cover I mean they're quick out there so I think of the L which is fine but I just think you know the boards and committees that that are putting this through you our downtown has real issues and just any you know possible closed containers if you know are getting rid of trash in the outdoor area because a lot of these outdoor areas have a lot of tables and they're busy and the turnover is fast so just to be really mindful of you know clearing plates you know a a a trash barel that's open because they're moving quickly just to be yeah yeah and you know CLE it's not the same that something is of course people knock things on the floor they D you know with their children or my adult family members and things go on the ground just to yeah it's outside and to remember that it's outside and they're there thanks Council won thank you I did have one last question just with regards to the criteria under all alans is there any necessity to get a an additional level of liability insurance that we need to require as a part of this process so licensing board requires the C license naming the city as a insur and then we will have deification and insurance requirements and the license themselves and so no no additional coverage about the extended use of property oh yes that would be be great thank you anything else okay so there's still some work to do I will also give an opportunity for anyone in the public who would like to make a comment you can use the raised hand function see none okay Mard how should we proceed because I know that there's also a time constraint here so I will make these Chang tomorrow would you would love to see trans passage of orance because we need two meetings right so this policy continuing time between now and S passage so I can make these changes tomorrow circulate them schedule another meeting next week to go over it again and hopefully that finalize and ready to to be approved okay so we'll proceed with the ordinance itself do the first passage this will come in in the December meeting the policy itself will come in in the second meeting and they'll be finished together yes okay and I will schedule another meeting in between the two meetings to get a final reading on it councillorI'm assuming I'm going to be moving that we keep this in Comm okay coun coun to to keep this in committee second inv counc all those in favor coun yes sorry so the motion was made by councillorCen second by councillorpresi since councel Bella is with us we'll do a roll call vote councilor Cen yes counc yes Council and myself as a yes so the motion carries 4 to 1