City Council

CITY OF SARATOGA SPRINGS SPECIAL CITY COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES THURSDAY MARCH 14, 2002 Present: Mayor Kenneth Klotz Commissioner of Finance, Michael Lenz Commissioner of Public Works, Thomas McTygue Commissioner of Public Safety, Thomas Curley Commissioner of Accounts, Stephen E. Towne Staff Present: Deputy Mayor Hank Kuczynski City Attorney Jeffrey Wait Deputy Commissioner Christine Gillmett-Brown Deputy Commissioner Bruce Brown Deputy Commissioner Robert King Deputy Commissioner Deborah Harper Also Present: Supervisor Anthony Scirocco, City of Saratoga Springs Supervisor Phil Klein, City of Saratoga Springs Supervisor Robert Hall, Town of Saratoga Supervisor Paul Lilac, Town of Stillwater Supervisor Harry G. Gutheil Jr., Town of Moreau Phil Barrett, Town of Clifton Park Mike Mooney, Town of Wilton Water Authority Keith Manz, Town of Wilton Water Authority David Wickerham, County Administrator CALL TO ORDER Mayor Klotz called the meeting to order at 2:00 pm Mayor Klotz said that if there are to be suggestions coming from representatives of other towns in the County, there are some things that the City of Saratoga Springs needs to know and should be assured about: 1) What is the cost of whatever is being proposed to the City going to be? He said that a number of different alternatives have been examined for the City, and some of the suggestions have been more expensive. He said that if there is a way of defraying the cost, the City should be made aware of that. We need to know who wants to work with the City and how much of the burden of the cost will be alleviated, and what will the City’s responsibility be. 2) Timetable: How long is it going to take? 3) Protection for the ratepayers of the City of Saratoga Springs against increases in their rates. Will those decisions be made by an outside agency or will they remain within the control of the City of Saratoga Springs? Mayor Klotz said that everybody on the City Council would be happy to have a cost efficient solution that gets the job done, regardless of what it is. Robert Hall, Supervisor of the Town of Saratoga said that he and his committee are interested in using the Upper Hudson. He said that there is a committee of people including Phil Klein, Skip Scirocco, Art Johnson, Ray Callahan, Phil Barrett and Bob Stokes. He said that the committee wants to determine the least expensive way to get water into the City and the area by using the Upper Hudson as a water source. He said that they spoke to Clough Harbor because they are the Special City Council Meeting Water Project March 14, 2002 ones that did the work for the Saratoga County Water Authority. Representatives from Clough Harbor indicated that they could do a master plan update of what it would cost to put a treatment plant on the Upper Hudson River, put a 36 inch line down to the Saratoga Springs water plant, then they would determine the cost per gallon to the City of Saratoga Springs. He said that the City could then place their fees on the water from the City plant. He said this study would take a minimum of forty-five days, and other communities are interested and have representatives on the committee. He said people on the committee are anxious to solve this problem. He said the cost for the study would not exceed $40,000 would be at no cost to the City because the County has offered to pay for it. He said when it comes to the DEIS, we are all willing to work with the City of Saratoga Springs, and the County would probably be willing to pick up the costs of that DEIS for the whole county. He said whether they go county-wide or how much they are going to do remains to be worked out with the committee. Bob Hall stated that the Town of Saratoga is interested in buying water from the City as long as it does not come from Saratoga Lake. He said using the Upper Hudson is a good long-term regional solution. He explained that the Hudson River coming from the Adirondack Park Association is already a protected water source. He said if something happened to Saratoga Lake and it became polluted, it would take a long time to clean it up, but if we were using the Upper Hudson River with 900 million gallons per day it would be hard to pollute that source of water. He said that it would be a positive step in promoting regional growth and supporting the Empire Zone that is now in the County, which is as beneficial to Saratoga Springs as much as to anyone else. He said this would provide a back- up supply of water to those communities who have already developed their own water source, and if this drought continues, everyone is going to need more water than they currently have. Supervisor Hall stated that it is even more feasible to use the Upper Hudson River if all the communities would work together. He said that he does not know where the total cost is going to come from because that needs to be worked out. He said that they want Clough Harbor to do this study. Mayor Klotz asked if Clough Harbor would give them a cost to the City that would then include, or take into consideration, the amounts that other towns are contributing toward the whole project. Bob Hall responded that the cost for the City would be based upon the cost of the number of million gallons per day that Saratoga Springs is using at the time. He said that the projection is that the City would use 11 million gallons per day in 2030. He said the City is going to have the expense of maintaining its own trunk lines and servicing its people. Commissioner McTygue said the City would only need raw water because they have their own treatment plant. He said there are numbers on the table that are in the Executive Summary of the Water Source Development Project, and Bob Hall’s committee has no numbers on the table. He asked if the Town of Wilton is on board immediately for this project, and explained that customers are needed in order to sell water to generate enough money to offset the cost of this project. The Town of Wilton’s Planner, Keith Manz said that right now they have a sufficient supply of water but certainly in their long range plans they might be interested in the water for the future. Page 2 of 9 Special City Council Meeting Water Project March 14, 2002 Harry Gutheil, Jr. of the Town of Moreau said he believes in the Regional concept but is more interested in a District than in an Authority. He said that the Town of Moreau now has a contract with Queensbury, and they are not interested in raw water, and he does not know of anyone who would be interested in laying lines for raw water. He does not think it would make sense to have water be sent back up to a treatment plant, most likely Queensbury, and then through other lines as treated water back to that community. He said that he is interested in treated water because it does not make sense for the Town of Moreau to have to install 12 to 15 miles of pipeline and build a treatment facility. Commissioner McTygue asked again if the Town of Moreau would be on board immediately, if would they be purchasing water from the Upper Hudson if the proposal was put together and the plant was built in the next five or six years. Mr. Gutheil said that he is not able to predict what is going to happen in five or six years. He said that if an industry moved in they might be interested, but presently they have solved their problem for residential use. He said the Board of Supervisors is trying to look at the big picture, at what is best for everyone. He said no one from the City has approached him about trying to put a regional thing together. He said when they made a decision not to build a treatment facility, it was decided not to go with the water authority, and the reason that they did not go with the water authority was because Saratoga Springs was not included. He said that if the County is ever going to have a regional thing with a pipeline down through the Northway, the City should be a part of it because of the size of their user base. Commissioner McTygue said that no one prevented the County Water Authority from building the line and running it down the Northway. He said the towns seem to be saying that they have solved their problems presently. Commissioner Curley said that he hears the willingness of people to look to the future. He said that the mission of this project is to try to guarantee water for everyone in the future. Mr. Gutheil said that bonding is now at 1.5, 1.6% and if there is ever going to be a regional concept, this is the opportunity to look at it. Bob Hall said that his plan is to run the water down to Clifton Park. Rich Straut said that options have been looked at, and one of the alternatives was to upgrade the Queensbury Plant and decommission the water treatment plant in the City of Saratoga Springs. He said the Queensbury plant would be expanded and the cost was estimated at $1.25 per gallon per day for treated water; the estimates are already put together. Mayor Klotz asked Bob Hall if he would anticipate that Clough Harbor’s findings would confirm the findings of Barton & Loguidice. Bob Hall said that they are not speaking about going to Queensbury, they are considering going to the Upper Hudson and building their own treatment facility up there. Rich Straut responded that dollar-wise the cost is similar because in that cost an intake would have to be put in the river because Queensbury’s intake is maxed out. A pump station would have to be put in and a treatment plant would have to be built. The cost of upgrading the plant in Queensbury is a little lower than the cost to build your own plant. He said that in the discussions with Queensbury they estimated that they could pump water out of the plant for about fifty cents per thousand gallons, and capital costs would be paid on top of that. Rich Straut said that the costs would eventually come down if the user base were expanded. He added that when you calculate these costs, the figures include the debt service. Page 3 of 9 Special City Council Meeting Water Project March 14, 2002 In response to a question of storage, Rich Straut said that the City has a five million gallon elevated water storage tank. He said that they did not consider building storage on the Upper Hudson, but they did consider the higher elevation benefits of the Upper Hudson and of the Queensbury alternative in that the energy costs would be lower, there would not be as much horse-power needed as there would to pump out of Saratoga Lake. He said that the cost of energy for each alternative has been factored into the comparative cost analysis presented in the Executive Summary. Bob Hall said that he is looking for Council permission to hire Clough Harbour to do a survey and determine how many people would be interested, how many gallons of water they would sell, and investigate the cost and feasibility of using the Upper Hudson. Mayor Klotz said that we can only benefit from more information and if you are willing to undertake the cost of that, he is anxious to see the result. Bob Hall asked if it were possible that the Draft DEIS could be shared with the County on an inter-municipal basis. Commissioner McTygue said that the release of the DEIS is on the City Council agenda for the March 19 meeting, so everyone can have this information. Commissioner Towne said that he objects to releasing the DEIS at this point. Commissioner Curley said that this is not the right time but he would like the opportunity to discuss the release of the DEIS at the next meeting. Supervisor Gutheil (Moreau) asked that if the council was interested in sharing the draft before they accept it. Commissioner McTygue said that the council must accept the draft before it can be released to the public. He said that he supports accepting it and releasing it to the public. Mayor Klotz agrees that it should be accepted and released. Commissioner Towne said that everyone at the council table is anxious to get this document out for its review, but a few of the council members do not have the depth of understanding of all the details regarding the SEQR process. He said he reached out to the Department of State to try to find out additional information on the wisdom of releasing a document when doing so indicates it is complete before it is actually complete. He said that the expansion of the Upper Hudson continues that process. He said the guidance the DOS has given him is that as lead agency, the council has the responsibility to satisfy themselves that the document is complete before it is released to the public and other involved agencies. He said they have given him sections of the regulations and the laws to support that. He said on common sense alone he can only go so far on what would appear to him to be a decision to say a document is complete before it really is (complete), which would not make sense. He said that the council cannot say that the document is complete if they are still in play on one of the options, even though he shares every council member’s desire and that of the other interested parties to get the information out. He said that the wisdom of the judgement has support from those who deal in this matter. Mayor Klotz asked Doug Ward to respond to Commissioner Towne because he is saying things that do not correspond with what he (Doug Ward) has told the council. Doug Ward said that he is curious as to the nature of the additional study because it seems to be in the nature of a regional concept. He said that the DEIS is a different concept that concerns serving the needs of the City of Saratoga Springs. In terms of meeting those needs, it has analyzed a lot of the things that Supervisor Hall brought up in terms of the cost and the pumping issue. He said the Department of Environmental Conservation is the agency responsible for giving interpretations of SEQR, and not the Department of State. Page 4 of 9 Special City Council Meeting Water Project March 14, 2002 He said the decision here is that the document is sufficiently complete to go forward with public review, and this does not mean that subsequent studies can not be conducted. He said that what Supervisor Hall is proposing is in the nature of a comment and not something being proposed by the City as part of its environmental analysis. He said it is going to be submitted as a comment on that analysis. The City Council could select an approach, perhaps determining that the regional approach is better, and then may request that a supplemental environmental impact statement be prepared. He said they have received a FOIL request from SLIPID, and from SLA looking for the information. Mayor Klotz asked if these agencies could be given the information under FOIL if the council has not accepted the DEIS and Doug Ward said no, it cannot be released under FOIL until the council agrees to accept and release the document. Doug Ward said he is concerned about being involved in the type of lawsuit that has been brought against the Environmental Protection Agency by the “fair group”. He said that folks in Washington County are trying to press the EPA to get information out to the public. He said in terms of determining this to be complete and allowing the documentation to come out now is not something that effects the council’s ultimate determination and allows for additional study to be submitted later. He said it is not something that could be challenged in court, and giving information is less likely to be challenged than not giving information. Mayor Klotz said we could continue to pursue the track Supervisor Hall is talking about and that would still be consistent with releasing the Draft Environmental Impact Statement. Doug Ward said that is correct, you have already acknowledged to Supervisor Hall that you are going to take that into account and 45 days is totally within the time frame that the City has allocated to review this. He said we are not rushing the judgement, this is going to take months to get through all the information that is already on your table. He said the beauty of this is that there might be solutions that are proposed by knowledgeable members of the public that will be elicited from their interpretation of the DEIS. He said it is good to obtain comments early so there will be more time to examine and scrutinize all the options. Supervisor Treible restated for clarification that releasing the document is not indicating approval, it says to get it out to the public; releasing this document for the purpose of review is not saying that it is complete. Commissioner McTygue said this is correct, and any alternative would be a supplement to the DEIS. Doug Ward said that it is complete for the purpose of review and is always subject to change because it is a draft. He said that often there is a supplement; that once the county’s proposal is submitted, it might be the subject of a Supplemental Draft Environmental Impact Statement. Doug Ward explained that within the DEIS is a lot of baseline information that would be useful to the County, because when they looked at the Clough Harbor analysis, there were some things that have since been updated and there is a lot of supporting data in the existing studies that would help Clough Harbor and might save the County some money. He said that releasing the DEIS does not commit the City to a coarse of action, it does not say that the council thinks it is complete so they don’t have to listen to anyone else. He said that the release only indicates that all the alternatives have been examined, including the Upper Hudson alternative, and if there is no more that needs to be said about the Upper Hudson that can come into the process. He said that it is rare that a DEIS is perfect in the beginning, changes are to be expected. When the DEIS is put out, the City is committed to a very expanded public outreach process. Comments are solicited so that they can Page 5 of 9 Special City Council Meeting Water Project March 14, 2002 be incorporated into the Final DEIS, and the process is not final until other agencies issue finding statements, and the City Council determines that it is final. He said that the finding statements could indicate that the DEIS is not adequate and something else must be done, so there are two major steps subsequent to the release of the DEIS which only starts the process. Commissioner Lenz said that there seems to be two paths here, one is to expand the DEIS prior to acceptance and the other is to accept the DEIS, then go back for a supplemental DEIS on the Upper Hudson. He asked if either of these steps have any impact upon future review by other involved agencies? Doug Ward said there is no impact upon the review by other agencies from either step, other than the positive one of getting the information out there. He said there is basically no difference between the option to expand the scope or to do a supplemental EIS except that to expand the scope delays getting information that is in the current DEIS out to the public. He said if the City decides to wait the 45 days for the information from the County, they would most likely put it through their own process, taking another 45 days to incorporate that information into the DEIS, so then it would become a 90-day delay. He said that other than the delay there is no distinction, but he reminded the council that the big decision for every one is with accepting the Final Environmental Impact Statement. Commissioner Towne referred to a reference book entitled EIS Contents, specifically Chapter 5, Section 14, subsection 3 : “With respect to the discussion of alternatives, DEC regulations specifically provide that the description and evaluation of each alternative should be at a level of detail sufficient to permit a comparative assessment of the alternatives discussed.” He said that clearly if we take the Upper Hudson and change the analysis of that option, our ability to do comparative assessments is impeded until that is done. He said that in the same subsection, his reference goes on further to say that “In striking down a DEIS for insufficient detail in the alternative analyses, courts have identified particular deficiencies in these cases; lack of discussion of the economics of the alternatives has figured prominently.” He stated that it is clear to him that no matter how many different options we have, if there is reference material that draws attention to the fact that the inability to do comparative assessments on the economics of the alternatives is an area of sensitivity with the courts, then the council should appreciate why he is hesitant to let the document go for analysis when we are still in play with the economics of one of the options. Michele Anderson of SLIPID said that she has foiled the DEIS, and she supports the City Council decision not to release it until they feel that it is complete. She said that they have experts that can take a look at it, but what the council has to decide here is whether the document is adequate as to scope and content for public review for portion of the public that might not have the expertise to be able to analyze it as well as the experts at SLIPID can. She said that there are two alternatives, but it would make more sense to step back and get a complete document rather than to have to supplement it and recommence much of the SEQR process in looking at a supplemental DEIS. Commissioner Towne said that the process seems to be inverted by having the Department of Health and the Department of Environmental Conservation involved after the process is released. He said he mentioned to the Department of State that the commentary from DOH and DEC would be useful to determine the adequacy of the alternatives and their layout. He asked if in Page 6 of 9 Special City Council Meeting Water Project March 14, 2002 fact this is the way it is supposed to be, and they responded that it is done this way although it seems awkward. He said that according to the DOS the commentary analysis from DOH and DEC could occur during the public period. He commented that on this particular aspect where much of the decision rests on the economic analysis of the Upper Hudson option, the cost sharing analysis is going to go through substantial alterations and reviews based on participation of various communities within the County. He said that it would seem to release the DEIS with data that is not complete since we know another part of the process is forth coming does not make sense. Doug Ward said that however the City Council decides is fine, but what happens when it is released is that public review begins. The City Council would not have to make a decision right away until that review is complete. He said during the process comments might come in reflecting regional concerns. In terms of having to redo SEQR, the next stage is to either consider this DEIS alone or add a Supplemental EIS. He said that the issue is always how much review shall there be. Challenges are for the Final Environmental Impact Statement. He said that the drafts are not challenged, they can be changed. Commissioner Curley asked whether the council is in control of the time frame, 90 days is allowed for public comments, so what is our limitation or our ability to allow it to go further? Doug Ward responded that the City Council is in control of the time frame. He said the only obligation the council has is to establish a date for a public hearing and they can establish more than one public hearing, or change the date, they are in total control of the time frame. Mayor Klotz asked if SLIPID approves of the release of the DEIS. Michele Anderson responded that to release it is to determine that the document is adequate as it is and SLIPID does not believe it is complete or sufficient for release for public review. She said that through the foil process as an interested agency they should be able to examine the document and make any determinations as to its accuracy or completeness. She said that there is case law that states that DEIS must be released (if foiled) prior to being accepted. Doug Ward said that he would like to see the case law and he does not see why SLIPID has any special leg up on the rest of the public in regards to reviewing the document. Lew Benton, Chairman of the City Planning Board said that the Planning Board agreed that the City Council should release the DEIS, and based upon the Executive Summary, there is a wealth of information in the DEIS. He said that another issue is whether the County would benefit from the information in the DEIS. He said that to not release it is to deny the County that information which could benefit Clough Harbor in their examination of the Upper Hudson. He said the scoping session that was unanimously approved by the City Council permitted communities to comment, and now that the DEIS is done based on that scope, we do not know whether it is adequate or not because we, the public, are being denied the opportunity to review it. He said consequently, both sides, those that are in favor of using Saratoga Lake and those that oppose its use are at a disadvantage. Mr. Benton said there must be regulations that question or deal with whether the council can continue to shelter this information. He said the regulations of the DEC state that when the lead agency has completed a DEIS it must release it. He asked “How do we know whether Clough Harbor can adequately address their scope without knowing what is in the DEIS, and how can the public determine whether the information is adequate if we have not seen it?” He said that it Page 7 of 9 Special City Council Meeting Water Project March 14, 2002 makes all the sense in terms of public policy to move forward and release the document. He said that it makes no sense and is not in the best interest of public planning to not release the DEIS. He said he has been authorized by the Planning Board to encourage the City Council to release the DEIS at its earliest convenience. He reminded the council that the document is a draft and no one can begin to critique and review it and determine its adequacy if they have not seen it. Commissioner McTygue asked Supervisor Hall if the only one on board to pay the rates to go to the Upper Hudson in the next three to four years is the City of Saratoga Springs. Supervisor Hall responded, no, the Town of Clifton Park and the Village of Ballston Spa are also interested. Commissioner McTygue said that lots of information needs to be obtained including some hard, fast numbers on what they will be charging the rate payers. He said that this becomes important when the bill increases, and it would double, and people holler now about water bills increasing. He said we must be careful about which direction we are headed. Bob Hall said his people care about what their water bill is going to be for their family, but they also want to keep Saratoga Lake for recreation only, so if it costs more to go the Upper Hudson they would prefer that rather than to use Saratoga Lake. Commissioner McTygue said he wants everyone on board. He said that the City is interested in raw water because it has a water treatment plant. Commissioner Curley does not close the door to other possibilities, other alternatives. Supervisor Gutheil said that the Town of Moreau is not interested unless the water is treated, and if the City is not looking for treated water, he is not sure we are working together. Commissioner McTygue said that the Town of Moreau indicated they are not on board because they solved their problem. He said that the City is open to any suggestions as long as they do not amount to four or five times the existing rates. Commissioner Curley said it has been indicated that these communities are willing to come on board at some point even for just the development of a facility that would serve as a producer of water for us also. Commissioner McTygue said that there has been no offer to put money is on the table except the County. He said that at this point there are no customers and other towns do not have the infrastructure and the pipes laid out in the district to sell the water. He said Saratoga Springs is the only one at the table with a water distribution system. Rich Straut said the City is not looking for treated water, but they looked at those options, as well as that of the cost of building a new treatment plant, through the Queensbury alternative. He said they also considered the cost of updating the Queensbury treatment plant, and through other alternatives, the cost of updating the City’s water treatment plant. He said that the Queensbury option was to bring treated water into the City and not use the City’s Water Treatment Plant. He said the main factor in the cost analysis is that the City has an asset, a plant that is capable of producing ten million gallons per day that has been well maintained. He said that the City has looked at treated water, and whether going to the Upper Hudson with the County and other municipalities would make a difference remains to be seen because the cost-sharing numbers should be worked out. Rich Straut said that if they are going to build a treatment plant on the Upper Hudson and lay the pipe down to the City, the difference in cost from running raw water down to the City’s treatment plant would be more than ten million dollars. He said it might be done, but the cost sharing needs to be determined. Bob Hall said that the City needs to be part of the plan because of the size of their user base. Page 8 of 9 Special City Council Meeting Water Project March 14, 2002 Commissioner McTygue asked Bob Hall if he is setting up the plan for the Upper Hudson through the Saratoga County Water Authority and Supervisor Hall said no that he would want to set up his own district. Rich Straut explained that looking at the Upper Hudson was an original alternative of Saratoga County Water Authority. He said their implementation plan started with water being distributed from Saratoga Lake, and then that system was to be decommissioned and the Upper Hudson was to be phased in. He said these scenarios have been investigated as to how to phase in different aspects of this project, such as their intention to use Saratoga Lake and pull out in 2005. He said there are numbers out there from 1990 that might be useful to you. He said the study determined that, regardless of whether the City of Saratoga Springs was involved, it was not economically feasible to build a facility on the Upper Hudson and pipe the water down. Commissioner Lenz said that he has gathered that the City Council is looking for Bob Hall to move forward with getting the County to pay Clough Harbor to check out the Upper Hudson scenario. He said he thinks it is an option that must be examined and would influence the decision that the council makes as to whether they proceed with this as expanding the DEIS or releasing the DEIS and having the Upper Hudson option be addressed as a supplemental EIS. He said that the more information available the better. The meeting was adjourned at 3:10 pm. Respectfully submitted, Nancy Wagner Clerk Adopted: Page 9 of 9