Planning Board

PLANNING BOARD MINUTES WEDNESDAY, MARCH 9, 2011 7:00 P.M. CITY COUNCIL ROOM PRESENT: Clifford Van Wagner, Chair; Jamin Totino, Vice-Chair; Amy Durland; Philip Klein; Dan Gaba; Howard Pinsley; ABSENT: Suzanne Bernardi-Cleary STAFF: Kate Maynard, Principal Planner, City of Saratoga Springs. CALL TO ORDER: Chair Clifford Van Wagner called the meeting to order at 7:06 P.M. SALUTE TO THE FLAG ANNOUNCEMENT OF RECORDING OF PROCEEDING Clifford Van Wagner said the proceedings of this meeting are being taped for the benefit of the secretary. Because the minutes are not a verbatim record of the proceedings, the minutes are not a word-for-word transcript of the recording. REPORT ON ADMINISTRATIVE ACTIONS BY THE CHAIR There are no actions by the chair. ANNOUNCEMENT OF LATE ADJOURNMENT – WITHDRAWN FROM AGENDA 4. #10.013 WHITE FARMS ROAD BED AND BREAKFAST, 66 White Farms Road, public hearing for special use permit for six room corridor bed and breakfast in a Rural Residential-1 District. ADJOURNED AT THE APPLICANT'S REQUEST #10.042 THE MEWS, 60 Weibel Avenue, review of site plan of mixed use building in the Transect-4 District. #10.052 CDJT WORKFORCE HOUSING, Citywide, City Council request for an Advisory Opinion for review of Zoning Amendment Proposal request for workforce housing. #10.040 WASHINGTON COMMONS, Washington Street and Central Avenue, special use permit for a mixed use building in the Transect-4 District. 11.001 420 BROADWAY, 420 Broadway, site plan review for mixed use building in the Transect-6 District. 10.049 166 JEFFERSON STREET, 166 Jefferson Street, site plan review of 10 unit residential building in the Urban Residential-4 District. ADJOURNED – WAITING FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION: #10.028 CELLCO-VERIZON CELL TOWER, 81 Nelson Avenue, SEQRA evaluation of potential environmental impact for a new 90' monopine telecommunications tower and associated equipment in an Urban Residential-2 District. #10.027 307 GRAND AVENUE MULTI-FAMILY, 307 Grand Avenue, public hearing on special use permit for multi-family housing in the Transect-4 District. #19.031 307 GRAND AVENUE MULTI-FAMILY, 307 Grand Avenue, public hearing on special use permit for multi-family housing in the Transect-4 District. UPCOMING SCHEDULE Planning Board meeting will be held on Wednesday, March 23, 2011 @.7:00 P.M. Planning Board caravan and workshop will be held on Monday, March 21, 2011 @ 4:00 P.M. Quarterly Land Use Board Meeting will be held on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 @ 7:00 P.M. PRIVILEGE OF THE FLOOR Clifford Van Wagner gave this opportunity to allow citizens to address planning issues not on the agenda this evening. None heard. AGENDA ITEMS LETTERS OF CREDIT 1. #05.028.3 MOUZON HOUSE, 1 York Street, Saratoga Springs. Applicant: David Pedinotti Applicant is requesting a letter of credit extension. Request for 18 month extension to September 30, 2012 in the amount of $15,400. SEQRA: No SEQRA requirement with a letter of credit extension. Mr. Pedinotti stated the only item which remains to be completed is the sidewalk which comes up to York Street, which is a dead end street. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman asked if there were any further comments from the board. None heard. City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 2 of 21 Jamin Totino made a motion for an 18 month letter of credit extension for the Mouson House, 1 York Street, in the amount of $15,400. Seconded by Amy Durland. VOTE: J. Totino, in favor; A. Durland, in favor; P. Klein, in favor; D. Gaba, in favor; H. Pinsley, in favor; Clifford Van Wagner, in favor ABSENT: S. Bernardi-Cleary MOTION PASSES: 6-0. 2. 03.044.2 OAK RIDGE SUBDIVISION, Oak Ridge Boulevard, Saratoga Springs. Applicant: Jeff Snyder The Oak Ridge Subdivision was approved on May 7, 2003. Last credit revision was September 9, 2009. Request for an 18 month letter of credit extension to September 9, 2012 in the amount of $118,600. SEQRA: No SEQRA requirement with a letter of credit extension. Mr. Synder stated the only item which remains is the top coat on the building of roads. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman asked if there were any questions or comments from the Board. None heard. Dan Gaba made a motion for an 18 month letter of credit extension for the Oak Ridge Subdivision, Oak Ridge Boulevard, Saratoga Springs, in the amount of $118,600. Seconded by Jamin Totino. VOTE: J. Totino, in favor; A. Durland, in favor; P. Klein, in favor; D. Gaba, in favor; H. Pinsley, in favor; Clifford Van Wagner, in favor ABSENT: S. Bernardi-Cleary MOTION PASSES: 6-0. B. APPLICATIONS UNDER CONSIDERATION 3. 11.005 108 ASH STREET SUBDIVISION, 108 Ash Street, sketch discussion for a four lot subdivision in the Urban Residential-2 District. Applicant: Matthew McPadden, Vintage Bungalow Agent: David Carr LA Group SEQRA: Sketch discussion, SEQR not required. City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 3 of 21 The Board previously issued a favorable advisory opinion to the ZBA for an area variance for a total of 3 lots. Applicant is now considering potential 4-lot subdivision, subject of sketch plan. Future ownership/maintenance of paper street to be considered. Proposed lots 3 and 4 cannot front on alley. Maple Street (paper street) must be a public street for frontage of proposed lots or a shared private drive is also a potential with current and future owners. The applicant is proposing the one way access street to be constructed along the length of the paper street from Walnut to Birch. The applicant is proposing two houses front on Maple Street and two front on Ash Street. Proposing basically 16' wide one way street which is in between the standard of an alley and a one way street. No curbs DEC regulations have changed. We believe we have the soil conditions in this area to use porous pavement on the alley. This is a much lower impact system so you do not need curbs and you don't need catch basins and pipes which is really the direction DEC wants to go in. Ash Street would be treated as a normal city street with sidewalks and street trees and street lights. Maple Street would be more limited access. Jamin Totino stated the Board received a communication from Tony Izzo, Assistant City Attorney regarding this application. Kate Maynard, Principal Planner, recaped the communication. A communication from Tony Izzo, Assistant City Attorney regarding the applicant’s proposed road construction on Maple Street a paper street as illustrated on the City Map. He stated in his memo that there is not yet appropriate proof that the City was ever conveyed the property. It was shown on a map from 1865 as to be conveyed by the ten property owner, but no further proof as to when that occurred. It is his opinion that to construct the one way street as proposed by the applicant, that there would need to be further proof provided that the paper street was conveyed to the City, or that the street has been used and maintained for ten years or more by the City. In absence of either it is recommended that the applicant seek the cooperation of all abutting land owners for the road to be constructed. Discussion ensued regarding porous pavement, and concerns regarding sidewalks. Amy Durland questioned having the street 16' versus the 22' which is the standard for the City She has some concerns deviating from the standard regardless of other isolated projects that might have done it differently. What limitations would 16' versus 22' impose? David Carr stated there would be no problem with parking even at 16' wide. Amy Durland questioned if there is any development potential along that street. Right now there are very few houses on that street but is there development potential so that there maybe more traffic on that street someday? Matthew McPadden, Vintage Bungalow stated there would be no other possibility for development in that area fronting on Maple Avenue. The only possibility would be some development of a lot but the homes would have to front onto Birch, not Maple. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated he would like to see the street width go to 18' just for the ability for cars to park and a little more space. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman asked if anyone in the audience wished to speak regarding this application? City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 4 of 21 Julie Paznik. I live on the paper street. The only concern is that our water line goes out to Walnut Street and I do not know if the street would interfere with that, or go over it? Matthew McPadden, Vintage Bungalow stated they spoke with City Engineer Paul Male and he suggested to tie the Paznik's water line in with the line for the new homes so there is only one water line going down the road. Howard Pinsley, questioned the accessibility of a fire hydrant or if one would need to be installed. David Carr stated if one is not located nearby the applicant would have to install one on that street. This is a requirement of a subdivision. Also the applicant will be using porous pavement for this area. Discussion ensued regarding sidewalks in this area, especially since the applicant is using porous pavement and new DEC recommendation is discouraging the use of sidewalks since the whole idea is to reduce impervious area no matter what it is. Is was the consensus of the Board that the four lot configuration is better than the three lot subdivision with no zoning variances needed and we encourage the applicant to pursue the Maple Street subdivision. 4. 10.058 SIRO'S, 168 Lincoln Avenue, special use permit for outdoor entertainment in the Institutional-Horse Track Related District. 5. 11.010 SIRO'S, 168 Lincoln Avenue, permanent special use permit for eating and drinking and outdoor entertainment in the Institutional Horse Track Related District. Applicant: Racing Restaurants of America Agent: John Carusone SEQR: Project appears to be a Type II action. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated at the last meeting he encouraged the applicant to meet with the neighbors and encouraged some type of compromise. On May 21, 2002 the City Council rezoned this property from UR-2 to INST-HTR. On June 19, 2002, the Planning Board issued a temporary special use permit for this site. That special use permit has expired. On March 19, 2003 the Planning Board issued a permanent special use permit for the property. Initially this was for indoor eating and drinking establishment. The resolution was as follows: "The Board grants a permanent special use permit for an eating and drinking establishment with the outdoor entertainment with the following conditions: 1). The size of the eating and drinking establishment shall not exceed 160 indoor seats and 130 outdoor seats. The facility for the permitted outdoor group entertainment shall not exceed 1,000 people or a determination by the Fire Department of a lesser amount; City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 5 of 21  2). The eating and drinking establishment shall be limited to 90 calendar days of operations per year including the days of the thoroughbred racing meet; 3). The outdoor group entertainment shall be limited to six days in addition to the days of the thoroughbred racing meet. The hours of operation for the outdoor group entertainment shall be limited to between the hours of 4 PM and 9 PM daily except on the day before opening day, opening day, Traver's Day and one additional day associated with a charitable event, when the hours will be from 4:00PM to 11:00PM. In addition, this special use permit for outdoor group application by the applicant it may be renewed by the Board; 4). A waiver of 265 required on-site parking spaces is granted on the condition that the applicant obtains lease arrangements for a total of 161 off street parking spaces for the duration of the special use permit with the owners of the nearby lots shown on the attached plans. If the applicant's lease on these parking spaces is reduced or canceled, this special use permit shall be terminated and the applicant must apply for a modification of the special use permit. On or before July 1st of each year, the applicant shall provide the leases on all parking lots to the City's Zoning Enforcement Officer; 5). Site plan review approval is required for this use; 6). A public address system for the outdoor entertainment shall be installed and controlled by the applicant and governed by the City's noise ordinance. The applicant shall work with all adjacent residential properties to control and reduce obnoxious noise. The location and other conditions of the sound system shall be approved during the site plan review approval; 7). The property shall be developed in general conformance with the revised sketch plans; 8). The entire outside eating and group entertainment area shall be fenced and all entrances controlled by security personnel and; 9). The applicant is to install an additional security light in the rear parking area on the applicant's parcel at 166 Lincoln Avenue; 10). The applicant shall contribute up to $5,000.00 towards the installation of appropriate offsite drainage improvements on Lincoln Avenue consistent with any request from the City's Department of Public Works." On March 19, 2003 the Planning Board also issued site plan approval. On September 15, 2003 the Office of the City Engineer signed off on the "as-built" improvements. On May 19, 2004, the Planning Board granted a revision and an extension of the site plan review granted originally on March 19, 2003. Final as-built plans were submitted in July 2005. Outdoor entertainment renewable special use permit last approved March 11, 2009. City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 6 of 21 Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman reviewed the standards to consider for a special use permit. The Board has spent quite a bit of time with the Planning Board’s attorney, discussing the regulations. Is there is anything the agent for the applicant has to add before we get into questions or comments from the neighbors and the Board. Mr. Carusone stated the applicant did have a meeting with the neighbors. The meeting lasted approximately 1 ½ hrs. We did make some progress. We did not agree on everything but between that and some subsequent emails I think everybody is at least aware of where everybody is. The applicant has made some very significant concessions with regards to hours. In the former permit we were allowed to operate until 9:00 PM on every race day, and we could stay open until 11:00 PM, on the days which were enumerated. Those days totaled 6. The proposal is to reduce the number of days where we could operate until 11:00 PM from the prior special use permit in exchange for which we are asking some increases until 10:00PM and some other days we reduced it from 9:00 PM until 8:00 PM. If you add it all up I think the total number of hours where we could operate music is actually less and maybe more importantly the total number of nights where we could operate until 11:00 PM is reduced because it is our perception and maybe the neighbors would agree with this that the later the music plays the more disturbing the noise is and also the greater the opportunity is for people to maybe inbibe too much and stay there. Usually, once the music starts to slow down the people begin to leave. So, I think that is helpful to everybody. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman, questioned the total number of evenings the applicant wants music until 11:00 PM. John Carusone, stated the new owners took over on opening day last year. There is something that they were unaware of. On the night before opening day, for the last fifteen or twenty years there has been a charity benefit which is an annual benefit held on the day before opening day for the Center for the Disabled. That has been a tradition as Siro's and they would like to have them use the facility until 11:00 PM for outdoor entertainment on that day. They turn the place over to the charity. There are just the two nights which would be the Alabama and the Travers, when they could stay open until 11:00 PM. Amy Durland questioned if in the 2009 Special Use Permit did it include Tuesdays. Were Tuesdays included in your proposal to have outdoor entertainment in 2009? Toby Porter stated this is only for charitable events. Two are scheduled and one additional day to be determined. Last year the charity event took place on Thursday because opening day was on a Friday. Amy Durland questioned the applicant if the remainder of Tuesdays during the race meet you did not have entertainment on Tuesdays? Mr. Carusone stated that would be correct. At the present time there is only one charitable event booked and they would be open until 9:00 PM. Jamin Totino stated we are talking about the permit and it is asking for three total. Two on Tuesday and a third until 11:00PM. Philip Klein stated that would probably be a Thursday since opening day is Friday, the Center for the Disabled charitable event would take place on Thusday. City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 7 of 21 Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated following Amy's comment it states six days in addition to the thoroughbred meet. Now six days in addition to the thoroughbred meet, the meet doesn't open up until the 22nd of July which is a Friday. So the night before is not part of the thoroughbred meet. Is that one part of the six or is it one plus six? The applicant stated just make it one of the six. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated it would be a total of six days, in addition to the thoroughbred meet. The applicant stated yes. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman, stated having done a little bit of math in researching this that the 2009 track season is 36 days. The 2010 and 2011 track meets are 40 days. There is an 11% increase in the thoroughbred racing days so therefore there will be an 11% increase in the number of days requesting outdoor entertainment and operation of the indoor eating establishment. Just because that is a factor of the race meet. Mr. Carusone stated correct. Mr. Carusone stated decibels was an issue. Toby Porter will speak regarding this portion. Our position is that we looked at some of the studies and particularly the Pittsburgh study that was cited by Gerald Marshall and the other examples of what does 75 or 80 mean. Toby did provide a list of different situations. So, we feel that a number for an average would be 75. The reason that I say an average is that there could be a trumpet flourish that gets up higher. Music is not just one level. Music goes up and down and up and down. Whether this Board wants to get into that or not. I know that the prior Board didn't want to get into it in quite that fine detail. That is up to you. We are prepared to work with you and the neighbors on that if that is the direction that we are going in. In connection with that we would be proposing to install recordable decibel meters so that there is a record of it. A record available to the neighbors and to the Board if necessary next year. So that we can all see and view it. If a neighbor for example says this music is 100 decibels, Toby can say well alright come over and look. There will be a meter. Again, he will go into the details of that. Toby Porter stated an average number is 75 decibels. The applicant is proposing to install recordable decibel meters for a record of decibel levels for the neighbors as well as for the Board. Mr. Porter brought a portable decibel meter to the meeting. His voice measured 80 decibels. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman asked what decibel chart he was using. Having done a little bit of research. Toby Porter stated he put two or three examples in there. They were just something he got off the internet that said this is the representative typical charts. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman, stated was this was a dba or decibel level dbc rating? Mr. Porter stated dbc rating. The dbc rating which measures a different set of frequencies and is typically broader and is what used in various cities around the country. My feeling is that 75 decibels, nothing is going to be lower than that. Again, I said an average because a car horn a door slam, somebody shouts, the fans on the roof, life in general. This meeting is typically 70. Me speaking right now is a little louder than that. 75 dbc at the property line and put in meters along the south and west walls that will record and operate while the bands are playing. City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 8 of 21 This would be a dbc level. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated 75 dba unsilent wood shredder at a 10 meter distance; 10 yards away, something that chips wood and shreds is 75 decibels. Mr. Porter stated at a specific frequency, which those are pretty high. I cannot speak to a wood shredder. I can give you what other cities have done. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman, stated, what you have to convice us is comparing the dbc to the dba. I am a numbers person and I look at 80 dba is high traffic on an expressway at a 25 meter distance. 85 dba is a two stroke chain saw at 10 meter distance. If you are stating that you are speaking at a 80 decibels right now. What you have to do is compare the dba levels to the dbc levels. We are not comparing apples to apples. I think for the neighbors and the board we need to know what the difference is. If you are talking at 80 and a wood shredder at ten yards away is 75 decibels, we are comparing apples to watermelons. I need to know the difference between a dba and your dbc sound. Toby Porter stated he could do both on his decibel meter. At a dbc decibel level while you were just speaking registered 68-70. It varies on the application and it varies on the music. Generally dbc is a broader band. It listens to more and creates a more realistic average than dba which is more high frequencies. Philip Klein offered the following example, if you were standing where you are and I was at the front of the building trying to put a child to sleep, which is the distance from the band and the closest neighbors house, the child would not hear you speaking inside the building but they would hear the music from Siro's which penetrates the neighborhood much more so. Toby Porter stated absolutely correct. Philip Klein stated we are speaking about decibel levels. Either I do not understand or I am missing something. Toby Porter stated the first year we did this and we were successful at maintaining a level of 75 decibels, the bands we not happy about it but it is something doing. 75 decibels at C wave. A trumpet and a drummer if I am not constantly after them they do get louder. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated if I am at Siro's after the track and I am trying to talk to someone and I cannot hear them and they can't hear me and my hearing is pretty good, is that the 75 decibels you are speaking about? Toby Porter stated we did get rid of the Burners. They stated if the people can talk than we are not loud enough. They do not play at Siro's any longer. Some bands will not play at Siro's simply because of the decibel level restriction. We can put decibel level meters around the property to monitor levels. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman asked if this was done last year? Mr. Porter stated this has not been done in the last few years. The Police did come over several times with their decibel meter and checked the decibel levels. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated the applicant can see what position this Board is in. City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 9 of 21 The outdoor entertainment is the biggest issue. Before this meetings is over this evening, we will have to resolve either the decibel level that this Board is going to allow and I think everybody has been discussing the one year temporary special use permit for the outdoor entertainment assuming that we get through the parking issue. This will be an opportunity for the new owners to be diligent and good neighbors because one year from now you will be back doing this again. Toby Porter stated the applicant can show what has happened over the summer and bring in recordings or whatever and I am sure we can do that to everyones satisfaction. Once I come up with a proposal to do it wherever we are on the property line. We can come up with a system to the owners and neighbors satisfaction. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman, asked if there were any further questions at this time? Howard Pinsley stated in a report he was reviewing which was put together for the Board in 2002. It stated at 72 decibels people were complaining sporadically. So that means somewhere they suggested 64-68 in the report. Toby Porter stated it is near impossible to get to this point. Howard Pinsley questioned Mr. Porter regarding his remark about the Police coming and asked what did they read on their meters? Toby Porter stated they had their own meters and they read 80 decibels. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman asked if the Board could play at 65 decibels? Toby Porter stated no. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman asked why not. Toby Porter stated 65 is conversation. Amy Durland stated this started out as a discussion originally at 65 decibels. The applicant had proposed 68 decibels at one time. It is hard to avoid the observation that this has been incrementally going up over time. I completely agree with Cliff's characterization of this as apples to apples or difficult to understand. Mr. Porter stated ever since he has been involved with Siro's it has never been lower than 65 decibels. Jamin Totino stated it seems to me that we could go round and round about decibel levels all night. It seems to me that the real issue at hand and maybe this is where the input from the neighbors is going to help make the difference. The real issue at hand in my mind is the hours of operation. Certainly the neighborhood is loud, there is not just Siro's, we have heard that before, there is the Horseshoe. Mr. Porter interjected, so is the Skidmore Athletic Field. Typically it has been his experience that you can do whatever you want, construction, have a party, etc., as long as it stops typically at 9:00 PM. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated or unless as specified by this Board, and we do that. City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 10 of 21 The construction project at McDonald's cannot start before I believe 8:00 AM and has to be done by 5:00 PM. Those were construction standards that this Board imposed upon the construction project. Jamin brings up a good point. We have spoken about the decibel levels. Mr. Carusone, do you have other items to contribute before we open this up to the public? Mr. Carusone stated another issue we looked at was the garbage. We had nothing prior in the special use permit so what we have proposed here is that the containers are going to be screened. Earlier we had submitted drawings by Tom Frost to show the location and the screening. Hours of compacting are 9AM to 8PM. Hours of pick up after 8AM but before 6 PM. Two compactors. That was the proposal. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated the NYRA lot is the long narrow lot where these will be located. Mr. Carusone stated a question arose about whether NYRA knew about this. Those containers and the concrete slabs have been there for 15 years. So, it was within the institutional knowledge of NYRA. It maybe that last year whoever was responding on behalf of NYRA did not know this. Yes, we will include this in the lease which will be filed with the City as we have done in the past and it will include the right to put the containers in that location. Toby Porter indicated to me that the screening itself for the trash will help to contain the noise as well. Regarding the parking. In 2002 we obtained a separate permit for one year for the whole operation. At that time we needed 265 off street parking sites. The Planning Board in 2002 and in 2003 issued the permits for the use permit waived the 265 on condition that we obtain 161 off street parking spots from certain neighbors and at that time those were located at the house next to Siro's and the NYRA lot and the house around the corner, on Frank Sullivan Place. In 2003 the situation changed. I remember speaking to Geoff Bornemann, he said you have to come up with something else. We did. A lease was negotiated between Siro's and the owners of the CRDN lot and from 2003 until the present time those were the two lots. The NYRA lot and the CRDN. Since the drawings that we originally referred to have them in a different location, we need to reopen the permanent special use permit and ask this Board for permission to put our 161 on the NYRA lot and on the CRDN lot. Which is what we are doing in the amended application that was filed. We do not own the house next door and the other house on Frank Sullivan Place changed hands. Peter DeCarlo now owns it. So there has been a change in ownership and a change in the lease arrangements. We need the CRDN lot to get to the 161. We do not need it as a practical matter though because I don't know if you recall this everything all the parking is done by the valets. The valet parkers do not take cars to the big lot, they just take them to the NYRA lot. They pack in 100 of them even though the drawing shows less than that. With valets you can maneuver differently. So, we need it because we need it but not because we use it. Now that is not to say the people who have parked there or who have parked elsewhere come to Siro's. We realize that the parking issue is problematic in some ways. A lot of it is beyond our control. A lot of the patrons that come to Siro's have been at the track and park we don't know where and walk over. Then they may walk downtown and then walk back to their car. We just don't have any control over that. The only parking that we can control completely, would be the valet and we do that and it is free. There is no charge for it. I know the neighbors have expressed some concerns about it and I don't know what else we can do. Unless this Board would entertain an application to reduce the number of off street parking. We are not asking for that. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated for the Boards information as well as the applicant's Kate Maynard, Principal Planner and he had a lengthy conversation with Mark Schachner today, who is our Planning Board counsel. Mark has sat at this table before when Siro's was before the City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 11 of 21 Board. He is very familiar with the application. He did indicate that a modification of the permanent special use permit issued in 2003 to allow 161 spaces is within the Boards perview to do. A motion later this evening will further separate out the parking. The indoor permanent special use permit parking is easy to determine exactly how many spots they need because there is a code that says one parking spot for every four seats. We know how many seats the indoor portion requires and subtract that number from 161 and that would be the number of sites that the temporary special use permit for the outdoor entertainment would be. Mark Schachner, again has indicated that he feels that is the right way to go with this modification. Parking we are familiar with and if there are no further comments we will open this up to the Public. Discussion ensued regarding the calculation of the number of spaces and how the number of spaces was determined. Amy Durland questioned if the valet parking was available for the outdoor entertainment or for the dining room and is it available the entire time Siro's is opened. Mr. Carusone stated anyone that drives up to Siro's has valet parking. Yes, the NYRA lot is leased for the race entire day. So it is a little different, because there is patrons. When the dining room opens and the outdoor functions open there is valet parking. Mr. Kantrowicz, owner of Siro's stated the valets begin parking at approximately 4:30 PM. Amy Durland questioned if the valets use the CRDN lot? Mr. Kantrowicz stated there is no need for it. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated he will now open this up to the general public. PUBLIC COMMENT: Mike Billok, 132 Nelson Avenue. We had the meeting and 75 decibels had been talked about. I understand you also had some questions about decibels. We understood that to be a proposal for a maximum level. Whatever level the Planning Board decides upon I would suggest that maybe there is an average but perhaps there could also be a level not to exceed. An average is too subjective. Andrea Green, 117 Nelson Avenue. We have a problem with the noise. We live across the street from the CRDN lot and in our backyard with the house in front and that far away we absolutely have no need for a radio in our yard. We can hear the music perfectly well. Mostly I am here to talk about how difficult it is to live in that area throughout the racing season and watch the people who leave that restaurant and bar and outdoor area and the condition that they are in night after night. It has to do with the amount of alcohol that is served. Judy Schrade, 108 Nelson Avenue. We have lived there since 1978. I am in disagreement with the CRDN special use parking permit. Lack of authority, no lighting, and I do not want to be the one in charge. Dangerous lot. Rose Tait, 164 Lincoln Avenue. Siro's is 168 Lincoln Avenue. The house contiguous to Siro's is 166 and is a single family residence. My house is a multiple family dwelling. There are three City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 12 of 21 families in that house and the stage is about 50 feet from the bandstand. I am passionate about this and I am affected most heavily. I was there long before Siro's started having outdoor entertainment. It is a hardship for me and I almost wished that they had zoned me commercial. They offered to have me call when its too loud and the next thing I know I had several officers come over and tell me that they were going to arrest me for harrassment if I called them again. Sarah Boivin, 129 Nelson Avenue. I was at the neighborhood meeting. I found the meeting less than satisfactory. I expected what the Board had put in front of Siro' s representatives to be specific about their intent to bring bulleted points and creative solutions. I didn't see any of that and I felt very discouraged about that. I was willing to compromise and even considered later hours but after much thought about the decibels and reading over those studies I can't separate hours from decibels. Later hours and louder music really does not make sense for me. No accountability and no enforcement. Sally King, 126 Nelson Avenue. I did submit a letter as well. I have come to the conclusion that the permit that was in place in the past had music between 9PM-11PM. This application increases that to 18 hours. I am not in favor of outdoor music past 9PM, because of many residual things that happen in the neighborhood in addition to the sound, which I can hear inside of my house. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated first we will speak regarding the permanent special use permit regarding parking and then move onto the outdoor entertainment and the renewal special use permit. Mark Schachner, Planning Board Counsel has indicated that 161 spots be provided and is within our perview to locate on CRDN as well as the NYRA lot, which the applicant needs to obtain a lease from NYRA every year on or before July 1, 2011. Howard Pinsley asked if the CRDN lot is used at all? Keith Kantrowicz, owner of Siro's stated since the time they have owned Siro's we never put one car on that CRDN lot. So, I understand the neighbors concern. When we took over Siro's one of the requirements was to provide the parking and this was a history with Siro's so we signed a lease. Mr. Robertson, owner of the CRDN lot informed Mr. Kantrowicz, that no one really uses the lot even when Siro's is not using it. He will even give Mr. Kantrowicz a lease at the same price I pay for the whole lot. My valets park close and they pack in the cars. People go to the track, and at any given day you can see them walk across the street. So, who would be our customer who would drive to Siro's who already parked across the street from the track. Very few people will go to their car, get their car and drive back to Siro's. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated people can go to the track at 11:30AM park on the CRDN lot go to the track for the day and then walk to Siro's. Keith Kantrowicz stated Shake Shacks bar which is across the street from the lot, is open until 11:00 PM every night. If you are at that lot you can now leave the front entrance of the racetrack where the gate is and just walk right there to the Horseshoe which is closer. Now our guys do not use that lot, so whatever Mr. Robertson uses his lot for that is his lot. He showed me legal documentation that his parking lot is a legal parking lot. In fact, Mr. Robertson and I had a conversation last week and he says he is probably the only one in that square that pays sales tax on those parking spots which when I spoke with AG's office that is mandatory. You must post a sales tax certificate outside your parking lot. What happens is that I do not know if our customers when they park at the big lot where they go. I don't know where my people go. If City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 13 of 21 you park at the NYRA lot, at 11:00AM that does not mean you have to go to Siro's, you can go to the Horseshoe, you can go to a friends house and come back. All we know is what we do. There was never a need for this parking for us in our first year. I can't talk on this history. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated this applicant is paying for 161 parkings spots between NYRA and the CRDN lot, is what this applicant is committed to based on the 2003 special use use permit and his valet parking personnel do not park cars on the CRDN lot. Howard Pinsley stated the applicant does not have control over the spots on the CRDN lot. Mr. Kantrowicz stated no he does not. Amy Durland stated she is having difficulty understanding the requirement of the parking using the CRDN lot when we are hearing that this lot is never used officially by Siro's. It's just a difficult situation to understand. The problem is that I am hearing that people who use that lot do create problems for the neighborhood. Especially if they may have been drinking or whatever, there is rowdiness and inappropriate behavior. I don't know how we can regulate or control that. To further confuse the matter is that we are required to entertain the possibility of validating the parking arrangement through that lot. I find this difficult to grasp and I am having difficulty figuring out what we should do. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated perhaps I can clarify this. The applicant is obligated by prior Planning Board Legislation to have 161 spots based on a formula that says here is what needs to be provided. Amy Durland stated meanwhile they do not have any assurance that any number of parking spaces in that lot will be available to them. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman, stated that is true. What they have to do is provide the 161. It could be someone parking on Lincoln Avenue by Presidential Arms that parks there because it is free, goes to the track, hits Siro's or the Horseshoe on the way home and gets in their car and leaves. They have, just like any restaurant has to have so many parking spots per so many chairs. We can modify the number of parking spots they need. Amy Durland stated in most parking lots we could point to them and say you need to have striping and you need to have greenspace, lighting and a number of things that are not provided in this lot. We are hearing the number of spaces that are available in the CRDN lot are completely open. It maybe that on some occasions those spaces, will be available in that lot for Siro's. What number of spaces are you leasing from CRDN? John Carusone stated that there are not any specific number of spots stated in the lease just the ability to park cars there. Amy Durland states it bothers her that because it is so far away from Siro's and people do use it who are patrons of Siro's. It sounds as if there are some ongoing problems in terms of people traveling that length of road, and pehaps there could be some mitigation to those problems. Philip Klein stated there is no way as a Planning Board to ascertain who parks in that lot, or where they go. The vast majority go to the track. In fact during the day probably 100%. As the afternoon wanes on people leave, they go other places, some cars may stay there all night. City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 14 of 21 There is no way for us to regulate that. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated the modification that is being proposed is to exchange basically on paper a total of 161 spots that before were contained in the house lot to the left of Siro's, the NYRA lot east of Siro's, the narrow lot that the garbage compactors are currently sitting on, and the yellow house south of that. Those are four lots that comprise minimally 161 parking spots. The applicant is making a modification to his application to provide the same number of 161 parking spots on a different lot. If they are needed fine, if not they are obligated to provide them. One is a lease arrangement for a specific number on a NYRA lot and the other is an arrangement with the owners of CRDN that they can utilize that lot. The applicant is paying x amount of dollars for that ability to park cars there if they need to. Any further questions from the Board regarding parking. Amy Durland stated the issue is that the parking in the CRDN lot is fairly far away from Siro's. That I believe has caused problems. I understand there is a lot of ambiguity around this and it is difficult to tell who the clientele are that are using the lot, and whether you can or can't link them to Siro's. Typically there is an ordinance that emphasizes the desirability of having parking contiguous or on the lot in question, to the extent that there is parking down the road. In the situation where people are drinking, and it is at night it causes problems. Sometimes we can control these problems by identifying some of these issues and I am perplexed as to how we can make this situation better for the neighborhood without being able to quantify some of this in terms of the use of that lot. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated he is proposing on the temporary special use permit offer up a starting point for a motion that will do exactly what you are talking about which is limit the number of hours, and control the decibel level. Perhaps one of the answers you are looking for is to control the hours of operation. Jamin Totino stated regarding the parking. I don't think we can ask the applicant to do any more than is already being done concerning the parking. It is such a unique challenge to ask a restaurant for reasons that have been discussed, to in this particular area where people are parking everywhere to go everywhere. I don't think we can hamstring that and say this particular lot satisfies this one particular need. In regard to parking I think this is the best we can come to. I think there are concerns about the parking lot to be sure and the traffic that goes in and out. Some of which maybe attributed to Siro's and some of which may not be attributed to Siro's. The neighborhood states the other issues are more predominant. Noise and garbage some of which we can address by other means. Amy Durland stated one thing which may address some of the concerns, there could be an argument for some sort of security in that lot. Some sort of security presence, whether it be a person or cameras or something that would help control some of the behavior and difficulties that go on in that area. Has there ever been any discussion regarding providing some security provisions for that lot? Joe Friday, 417 Northern Pines Road, Ganesvoort. As part of the security that you are talking about and controlling the parking. If you can control the general public you may be able to do this. You have people start showing up at the track at God knows what time in the morning. They are going to park at the closest most convenient spot they can find. There is no way to ascertain where these cars are coming from. It is impossible to regulate. City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 15 of 21 Jamin Totino stated since you are using this lot in as far as your application goes as part of your primary lot it does not seem unreasonable for you to send a patrol through that lot during your special use permit hours and not every day of the week, but during the hours of your special use permit whatever they might be to have a patrol walk through the lot and move people along, make sure they are not urinating in the grass and doing whatever else that people might be doing, that strikes me as a reasonable conversation to have and if you have the staff to do that I think it is worth exploring. Mr. Carusone stated that there authority would be limited of course, but they probably could do what Jamin has suggested to help alleviate some of the problems. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman made a motion for the permanent special use permit. Involving the premises at 168 Lincoln Avenue in the City of Saratoga Springs in the Institutional Horse Track Related District (INST-HTR), on an application for a permanent special use permit for an eating and drinking establishment:
Classify project as a Type II action under SEQR requiring no further review.
Approve a permanent special use permit for an eating and drinking establishment as per the requirements set forth in Article VI of the City of Saratoga Springs Zoning Ordinance with the following conditions: 1) The eating and drinking establishment days of operation shall be limited by the relevant provisions within the current zoning district. 2) The size of the eating and drinking establishment shall not exceed 160 indoor seats and 130 outdoor seats. 3) A waiver of 63 spaces required on-site spaces continues to be granted on the condition that the applicant obtains lease agreements for a total of 40 off street spaces for the duration of the special use permit with the owners of the nearby lots on the NYRA lot at the corner of Lincoln and Frank Sullivan Place (Tax ID166.77-4-5), or the CRDN lot (Tax ID 166.77-4-17) as shown on the attached plans. If the applicant’s lease is not provided on one of these lots, the applicant must apply for a modification to this special use permit. On or before July 1st of each year, the applicant must provide the lease(s) on these parking lots to the City’s Zoning Enforcement Officer. 4) Two compactors will be located on the adjacent NYRA parcel with written approval from NYRA provided for this use. Compacting will only take place between 9 a.m. to 8 p.m.; Trash pick-up will only take place after 8 a.m. and before 6 p.m. Containers are to be screened per attached sketch plan. 5) The property shall be held within general conformance of the attached sketch plan. 6) Please note any changes to these conditions will require a proposed modification before the Planning Board. 7) Site plan review for changes on site will be required. Seconded by Philip Klein Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman asked if there was any further discussion. Amy Durland requested to see the motion. VOTE: J. Totino, in favor; A. Durland, in favor; P. Klein, in favor; D. Gaba, in favor; H. Pinsley, in favor; Clifford Van Wagner, in favor City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 16 of 21 ABSENT: S. Bernardi-Cleary MOTION PASSES: 6-0. 9:05 PM the Board recessed. 9:15 PM the Board reconvened. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman stated he has separated these two applications. In the event that someday the outdoor entertainment is no longer viable the indoor restaurant use is now legal by virtue of the fact that they have that modification for the parking. Now we have to speak regarding hours of operation. We have heard the neighbors, and the applicant. No one on the Board is looking to put Siro's out of business. However, this Board has a lot of responsibility here. This is a very difficult position for anyone on this Board to be in. We are up to the task and our goal is to reach a middle ground so that Siro's can coexist with the neighbors. Recommendation that the temporary special use permit be granted for one year. A year from now we will all be back at the table. If this is a successful season for the applicant and the neighbors are happy then everybody has done their job. We need to reach middle ground so I am going to throw some stats out and I look to the Board for some assistance. I am proposing the temporary special use permit which right now has an allowance that says outdoor entertainment shall not exceed 1000 people, We have discussed this with both the fire chief and the builidng code enforcement. They will collaborate and make a determination based on square footage , occupancy, etc. So, I would propose that it should not exceed 1000 or a lesser amount as determined by NYS Fire Code. The outdoor entertainment will be limited to 6 days in addition to the days of the thoroughbred meet. I am proposing the hours of operation on Sunday and Monday be 4-8PM; Wednesday and Thursday be 4-9PM; Friday and Saturday 4PM-9PM. Monday of sales week 4PM-9PM. Travers Day and Alabama Stakes 4PM-9PM. Two Tuesdays for charity events, 4PM – 9PM. Basically nothing beyond 9PM. What I am proposing is that the ability to stay outdoors at Siro's is not inhibited by this. In other words I am not suggesting that the last call is 9:00PM. Outdoor entertainment would end by 9:00PM. People can stay and continue to chat and do whatever they want. This is a compromise. We will see in one year how that goes. Waiver of the spaces is the resulting balance of the 161 minus the 40 that we spoke on the permanent side, which will be granted. Proposed that the decibel level does not exceed 65 at any point on Siro's property line. I am suggesting rather than having the applicant do the monitoring, the applicant come up with $5,000 and the City hires an independent third party engineer who has qualifications to test noise and has a calibrated and acceptable decibel noise meter. Once a week that person goes to Siro's unannounced goes to the perimeter, checks the decibel level and reports back to the City. The stage and speaker reorientation to be completed in accordance with the sketch plan that was submitted in January which will further limit the sound escaping. Special use permit will be valid for one year. Howard Pinsley requested what the 6 extra days the applicant has proposed are? John Carusone, stated they are not sure of the days themselves. Philip Klein, stated he feels the independent contractor should be able to go over at anytime to check the decibel level, rather than once a week, as long as it stays within the dollar value. There are also two twilight racing nights, and we may need to extend the 9PM curfew on those two Fridays to 10PM. City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 17 of 21 Dan Gaba questioned the decibel level – and the scale to be used. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman, stated the scale to be used is the dba scale. Jamin Totino stated he has similar thoughts about the hours of operation and the independent contractors ability to visit the site when he wishes. The Chairman makes a good point regarding that the meet is extended this year and does help to balance out some of the restrictions placed on the permit. Also there are other areas for the applicant to move in for outdoor entertainment not only this season but also for future seasons. Amy Durland stated she is willing to support the terms of this proposal for a year and see how it goes. I still have substantial concerns that defining some of these terms is going to be an ongoing difficulty. There will still be disagreements about matters of fact. I think that your proposal goes a long way to trying to define those things. It is okay with me. Phil's suggestion was reasonable concerning twilight racing. I do like the 9:00 PM time restriction. Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman made a motion regarding Siro's application be approved with the following conditions: Involving the premises at 168 Lincoln Avenue in the City of Saratoga Springs, in the Institutional Horse Track Related District (INST-HTR), on an application for a renewable special use permit for outdoor entertainment:
Classify project as a Type II action under SEQR requiring no further review.
Note that the motion was prompted in part because the outdoor entertainment feature of Siro’s, based on the testimony of many nearby neighbors, became intrusive and inconsistent with the special use permit provision of “the overall compatibility of the use with the neighborhood and the positive and negative impacts on community character, including the character of adjoining properties, districts and uses…”
Approved a renewable special use permit for outdoor entertainment as per the requirements set forth in Article VI of the City of Saratoga Springs Zoning Ordinance with the following conditions: 1) The facility for the permitted outdoor group entertainment shall not exceed 1,000 people or a determination by the Fire Department of a lesser amount per the NYS Fire Code. 2) The outdoor group entertainment shall be limited to six days in addition to the days of the thoroughbred racing meet. 3) The hours of operation for the outdoor group entertainment shall be limited to:
Sunday, Monday: 4PM- 8 PM,
Wednesday, Thursday: 4PM- 9PM,
Friday, Saturday: 4PM- 9PM,
Monday of Sales Week: 4PM-9PM,
Traver’s Day and the Alabama Stakes: 4PM-9PM,
Two Tuesdays only, for charity events during Thoroughbred Meet: 4PM-9PM,
Final Saturday: 4PM-9PM,
Two Friday twilight racing nights: 4PM-10PM,
Six additional days in addition to Thoroughbred Meet: 4PM-9PM. 4) A waiver of 187 spaces required on-site spaces continues to be granted on the condition that the applicant obtains lease agreements for a total of 121 off street spaces for the duration of the special use permit with the owners of the nearby lots City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 18 of 21  on the NYRA lot at the corner of Lincoln and Frank Sullivan Place (Tax ID166.77-4- 5), or the CRDN lot (Tax ID 166.77-4-17) as shown on the attached plans. If the applicant’s lease is not provided on one of these lots, the applicant must apply for a modification to this special use permit. On or before July 1st of each year, the applicant must provide the lease(s) on these parking lots to the City’s Zoning Enforcement Officer. 5) Noise is not to exceed 65 decibels (dba) at any point on Siro’s property line. Siro’s shall designate a single contact person with whom any neighbor can call in the event of a noise complaint and verify decibel level on property line. Applicant will continue to work with residential property owners to control and reduce any adverse impacts from outdoor entertainment. 6) An independent noise analysis will be provided by a certified sound expert that will utilize a calibrated decibel meter to monitor sound at the property line various times throughout the racing meet. The monitoring will be completed via an escrow account provided to the City by the applicant in an amount not to exceed $5,000. The report will be sent to the City Planning Department. 7) Stage and speaker re-orientation will be completed in accordance with the Gerald Marshall 1/18/11 recommendations. 8) The entire outdoor eating and group entertainment area shall be fenced and all entrances controlled by security personnel. 9) Siro’s security personnel will provide occasional monitoring of the CRDN lot during the length of the special use permit. 10) The special use permit shall expire March 9, 2012 but upon application by the applicant it may be renewed by the Board. Seconded by Jamin Totino. VOTE: J. Totino, in favor; A. Durland, in favor; P. Klein, in favor; D. Gaba, in favor; H. Pinsley, in favor; Clifford Van Wagner, in favor ABSENT: S. Bernardi-Cleary MOTION PASSES: 6-0. 6. 06.002.1 5 POINTS GROCERY/BROWN DOG PET SPA, 42-45 Park Place, amendement to existing special use permit in the Neighborhood Complementary Use -2 District. Applicant: Mike Hoffman, Ashley Noxon Agent: Ethan Hall, Rucinski Hall Architecture SEQRA: Action appears to be Type II. Special Use permit granted in 2006. "The Board grants a special use permit with the following conditions: 1). neighborhood convenience store of up to 1,970 SF with up to twenty City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 19 of 21  seats 2). Laundromat of up to 1,028 square feet 3). Up to 320 square feet for either a business office, professional office or service establishment. 4). The hours of operation for the neighborhood convenience store shall be between 6:00 AM and 10PM 5). The site shall be developed in general conformance with the attached floor plans and sketch site plan 6). A waiver of 17 on-site parking spaces granted. 7). A waiver of site plan review is granted. Stop work order issued by the building deparment on 01/13/11 for work without a building permit. Noted that amendment of original special use permit would also be required. Applicant seeking to modify laundromat use of up to 1,028 square feet for pet spa. Per Bob Hickey pet spa is classified as a service use. Proposing 1,028 square feet for service use. Parking requirements will remain the same as per the laundromat. No additional parking required. The applicant stated this is an existing business which has been in operation for approximately three years in Ballston Spa. We had a 400 square foot space. We signed a lease. Some work has been started, a communication breakdown with the contractor. Hours of operation will be 8am to 8pm Monday – Saturday. 10am – 5pm on Sunday. No dog kennel or overnight use. Drop off and pick up same day. We do plan to have a compost. There is a dumpster on site currently which meet the needs of new use. Email received from Gillian Black, 94 York Avenue in support of the application. Kayla Babis, Ganesvoort, client and friend is in support of this application. Motion by Howard Pinsley to approve the application Seconded by Jamin Totino. VOTE: J. Totino, in favor; A. Durland, in favor; P. Klein, in favor; D. Gaba, in favor; H. Pinsley, in favor; Clifford Van Wagner, in favor ABSENT: S. Bernardi-Cleary MOTION PASSES: 6-0. MOTION TO ADJOURN: There being no further business, Clifford Van Wagner, Chairman adjourned the meeting at 10:05 PM. City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 20 of 21  Respectfully submitted, Diane M. Buzanowski Recording Secretary Approved: April 13, 2011 City of Saratoga Springs Planning Board Minutes – March 9, 2011 - Page 21 of 21