City Council Study Meeting - ARCHIVED

SOUTH JORDAN CITY CITY COUNCIL STUDY MEETING August 2, 2022 Present: Mayor Dawn Ramsey, Council Member Tamara Zander, Council Member Patrick Harris, Council Member Brad Marlor, Council Member Don Shelton, Council Member Jason McGuire, City Manager Gary Whatcott, Deputy City Manager Dustin Lewis, City Attorney Ryan Loose, Director of Public Works Jason Rasmussen, City Recorder Anna Crookston, Director of City Commerce Brian Preece, Director of Administrative Services Melinda Seager, Director of Strategic Services Don Tingey, CFO Sunil Naidu, Fire Chief Chris Dawson, Chief Technology Director Jon Day, GIS Coordinator Matt Jarman, Senior IS Tech Phill Brown, Director of Planning Steven Schaefermeyer, Director of Engineering Brad Klavano, Communications Manager Rachael Van Cleave, Director of Recreation Janell Payne, Planner Ian Harris, Planner Damir Drozdek, Meeting Transcriptionist Diana Baun Others: Brian Adams, Stacie Williams, 4:49 PM STUDY MEETING A. Welcome, Roll Call and Introduction: By Mayor Dawn R. Ramsey Mayor Ramsey welcomed everyone present and introduced the meeting. B. Invocation: By Council Member Jason McGuire Council Member McGuire offered the invocation. C. Mayor and Council Coordination City Manager Gary Whatcott gave a brief explanation for the cancellation of the regular City Council Meeting. Mayor Dawn Ramsey discussed a request for someone to represent the city on the South Jordan Business Committee, which is an arm of the South Valley Chamber; they meet the first Tuesday of the month at 8:30 a.m. for one hour. Council Member Tamara Zander said she would be interested in representing the city on the South Jordan Business Committee. Mayor Ramsey asked the council if they are in agreement with Council Member Zander representing the city, and they all agreed that was acceptable. South Jordan City 2 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 Council Member Marlor said he would be willing to fill in for her if she cannot make one of the meetings. Mayor Ramsey also mentioned that there are so many places our city has an opportunity to be involved, and she is finding she doesn’t have time to be the representative at every meeting. She might need another volunteer to represent the city on the South Valley Sewer Board, which has meetings at 7:00 a.m. on the fourth Tuesday of every month. She asked the council members to consider if they would be interested in taking her place on that committee in the near future if needed. Manager Whatcott introduced Stefani Walker as the new mayor and council secretary, and had the council introduce themselves to her. Council Member Brad Marlor mentioned that he is no longer available for the Dragon Boat Race. Mayor Ramsey volunteered her husband for the open space on the team and the council discussed details for the race. D. Mayor and Council Reports Council Member Patrick Harris asked about Google Fiber’s progress. Director of Engineering Brad Klavano gave an update on where they have issued permits, and shared that the installers are doing a pretty good job with only a few complaints from neighborhood residents and postal delivery employees. Director of Strategy and Budget Don Tingey discussed a few calls and emails he has received regarding Google Fiber, and how those questions were answered and concerns resolved. Council Member McGuire met with the Arts Council and discussed some future projects they would like to work on. They have been scheduled at a future Study Session in September to share some of those ideas. Council Member Zander had nothing new to report. Council Member Shelton visited with our Deputy City Manager Dustin Lewis and got to know him better. He attended the Glenmoor Golf Course July 24th celebration, which was on the 25th, along with other council members and enjoyed that. Council Member Marlor said there have been no Architectural Review Committee meetings since our last meeting, and shared some news on his health. Mayor Ramsey attended all of her regular board meetings, but also had a few unique opportunities including meeting with several different groups of mayors from across the state South Jordan City 3 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 through the Associations of Government. Even though they all come from very different places across the state, they face many of the same issues. She was able to meet Secretary Pete Buttigieg and celebrate the PROTECT Program being passed, for which we previously sent letters to both of our senators in support of. E. Presentation Items E.1. Redwood Townhomes & Commercial Flex Space, PD Floating Zone Project: 11147 S. Redwood Road (By Civil Services Brian Adams). Director of Planning Steven Schaefermeyer introduced Brian Adams, gave some background on the project and shared a binder of information prepared by Mr. Adams with the council members (Attachment A). He noted they have been working with staff for quite a while and he felt it was time to come to the council for feedback. Brian Adams gave a brief history of the land being discussed, the current owners and their current proposal including townhomes and commercial flex space buildings. He began by reviewing the provided notebook (Attachment A). Director Schaefermeyer went over the location of this piece of land and the things surrounding it. Council Member Zander asked a few detailed questions about what’s around the parcel, and Mr. Adams answered those for her. Mr. Adams continued reviewing Attachment A and explained their current concept plan with townhomes along Redwood Road to match with the Sego project, so everything along Redwood looks similar. The two proposed flex buildings would be two stories with only one story developed and the upper area for storage. He continued reviewing Attachment A, discussing what’s already around the area. Council Member Zander asked about the Sego homes and the homes to the east of those, if those homes to the east were done by Sego as well. Director Schaefermeyer doesn’t believe those homes to the east were done by Sego. David George has been leading this project, one last part was approved on Redwood just north of the townhomes and it’s shown in Attachment A on the page referring to Heatherwood Village. It is a vacant parcel that was approved for an office building that has not been built. On the corner is a dance studio, which used to be an Enterprise Rent-A-Car, with a vacant parcel whose owner has not been able to get construction going yet. Mr. Adams continued reviewing his notebook (Attachment A). Council Member Shelton asked for more info about the flex space. South Jordan City 4 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 Director Schaefermeyer explained that flex space is different from an office building, in that there is an area that’s generally larger for a variety of uses. The spaces usually include a garage door somewhere on the building, and they are designed for more industrial use. Many people have been pushing the envelope and changing our “office” zones into flex spaces and that has raised concerns for staff. For flex space, the buildings don’t have to look industrial, but that’s usually what they’re used for. He gave examples of some of the flex space tenants in similar buildings close by, explaining that it can function as commercial, retail or both depending on needs. Council Member Shelton asked if these will be made of concrete. Mr. Adams said the nearby buildings along the street are black. They want to complement those and there are options for customization they are looking at. He discussed examples of local flex spaces and shared examples in Attachment A. Council Member Marlor noted that density is probably the most important thing on the council members’ minds. Mr. Adams said the density is currently about 8.9 units per acre, and if the new owner of the other parcel accepts their invitation to join their project and builds a single family home there, that will put their numbers below 8 units per acre. That neighboring owner has been asking about a timeline for the city to bring him utilities, and joining this project would allow him to gain access to those things much faster and easier than doing it independently. Council Member Zander asked for the density numbers if that extra property with the possible single family home was not a part of their project. Mr. Adams noted that the residential townhomes without that property or the flex space buildings is 8.9 units per acre. Council Member Shelton asked how those numbers compare to the townhomes to the north. Mr. Adams said that overall he believes they finished at around 8 units per acre. Director Schaefermeyer noted that if they were just counting the townhomes, without the single family residential or office space, the density would be around 20 units per acre. Council Member Zander asked how his buildings will compare to the Sego Homes in terms of size and design, including the width of the front of the buildings. Mr. Adams said the information is listed in the notebook (Attachment A), and said the Sego townhomes were narrower than what they have planned. He used pictures in the notebook to show that their townhomes will be wider. South Jordan City 5 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 Director Schaefermeyer said that a challenge they face is wanting a builder, or at least the architect on board before they begin a development agreement so they can show what concept plan they are agreeing to build. With the development over by Swig and Starbucks, the city signed the development agreement with design standards and overall the project turned out pretty well, but it was rocky getting there. They do not want that to happen again, so they want the people actually building the units on board and included in the agreement. Council Member Zander asked about the most recent master plan for Redwood Road, and their decisions regarding the Sego development; did they decide they wanted to repeat that, or did they decide it was not a good idea to do again. Director Schaefermeyer said they decided they wanted the focus of Redwood Road to be on commercial, but that is always challenging. He thinks they kept that focus on the county’s former property, and that is why this developer has tried to add a commercial element to this project. He has heard some negative things about the Sego townhomes, so there is an argument to continuing or transitioning them in an effort to help them not stick out. Council Member Zander likes that the examples show traffic dumping to the east, on Beckstead, with only one opening up to Redwood Road. She appreciated them not doing single driveways going directly on to Redwood Road, adding more burden to Redwood Road. Mayor Ramsey discussed a meeting with the planning commission in 2018 when the Redwood Master Plan was done. There was a lot of conversation about Redwood Road north of our city having too many pull-outs and obstructing traffic. She understands that it does flow nicely in terms of looks, but adding more residences to Redwood inevitably would create more traffic. Director Schaefermeyer said they discussed the importance of a connection to Beckstead, creating an alternative. Part of the vision statement being referenced for Redwood Road was “the corridor is a vibrant stretch of employment and restaurants supported by strategically placed residential.” Council Member McGuire understands keeping townhomes on Redwood Road, and that they will help the other townhomes blend in, but he’s worried about the flex space just being there in a residential area. That being said, he doesn’t know that he wants those along Redwood either. Council Member Marlor disclosed that he does have a business relationship with the property owners, but it does not involve this particular property and he doesn’t think it impairs his judgement tonight in any way. He did note that if we came to terms on the zoning, which includes the property owned by Christopher and Lacey Rawlins, if they decided they didn’t want to do that and wanted to put townhomes in that would be problematic. That change would for sure take them over the density level that the city is comfortable with, so he would be very cautious about trying to change anything after the zoning has been approved. Mr. Adams asked if there could be a problem with them coming in as a single-family home, just to tie in with their improvements and utilities. South Jordan City 6 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 Council Member Marlor said it’s an unusual place to put a single-family home, but there are homes across the street and it would be allowed. Director Schaefermeyer said that currently, the zoning for that piece of property is R-2.5, so they could build a house there without rezoning or bringing it before the council. Council Member Marlor understands that, and asked if they could put two homes on the lot. Director Schaefermeyer said probably not, but he hasn’t done the exact math. Council Member Shelton is torn with having the flex space in the back versus on Redwood Road. He understands the idea of continuing the look of the townhomes already there, but he recalls another developer being here and saying he needs his commercial on the street front or it won’t work. If there will be commercial with a mix of housing, to him that commercial is on Redwood Road and the homes are more on Beckstead or more towards Beckstead. Council Member Marlor thinks it would be odd to have incubator space right on Redwood, as incubator space does not look as much like commercial as it does industrial. It depends on the look of them, and that has been discussed; if they have a more professional look, and you don’t see much of the warehouse that would be different, but it would pivot on what these units look like from the outside. Mayor Ramsey agreed with Council Member Marlor, that as much as she likes the housing coming off of Beckstead and the commercial being on Redwood Road, she does think it looks weird to have those buildings fronting on Redwood Road. If homes are going in here, they would look better on Redwood Road. She asked about the current zoning to get an idea of what the current neighbors are expecting that space to be, and what their responses to having commercial built there might be. Director Schaefermeyer added that the current zoning for the potential flex space sites is agricultural. The proposed plan would have zero setbacks between the flex space and current residential, similar to nearby projects. The question is whether they want dead space behind a commercial space that has to be either fenced or lit, versus a wall. Mr. Adams noted that in the area just down the street with flex space they did the zero setbacks as shown under Tab 6 in the notebook (Attachment A). He shared examples of previous projects and how these setbacks would look. Council Member Shelton would rather see this with commercial on the street and the residential behind that, however he’s not sure if that includes the flex space option. Director Schaefermeyer gave example locations of other flex spaces in the city for the council to imagine, and noted that on 11400 South there is a new building that looks similar to the adjacent flex space that has a spa in it. From that standpoint, certain businesses can definitely fit within different types of buildings. South Jordan City 7 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 Council Member Zander said that if the Sego piece wasn’t there, she would agree. However, because they have that Sego piece she does feel like transitioning is going to look better. In theory she favors commercial facing Redwood, as Council Member Shelton said, but with the Sego piece being there alone she feels the residential might be the better option. She heard someone say that when residential faces a road, traffic tends to slow down, so she’s not sure what effect that would have on this space. Council Member McGuire noted that, after looking at this area on Google Maps, he does like the idea of putting the residential up front for the continuity. However, there would still be a sudden drop-off where the neighboring pieces pick back up. Council Member Harris asked City Manager Gary Whatcott and Deputy City Manager Dustin Lewis about their thoughts on what is being proposed here. Deputy Manager Lewis thinks this is something that could work there, but ultimately the council has to decide how they want the community to look like and this is a major thoroughfare through the community. Council Member Harris said that if they were to go with a plan like this, he thinks they need to look at what’s currently surrounding the area. If you consider Sego’s homes there, to continue with housing on Redwood Road could make sense. He can see it going either way, but if the applicant preferred it to be on Redwood Road, and we are okay with the project, he doesn’t see why we would say no to it since we let Sego do it previously. Mayor Ramsey is a strong proponent of commercial on Redwood Road because there are very few commercial spaces left in the city. However, this is a weird area and the whole picture along that road is a hodge-podge of everything, making it unique. She does think the transition from Sego probably looks better. Council Member Zander referenced the beautiful brick medical building that is practically vacant, which is owned by the same group and next to Stillwater Academy and this property being discussed. If that beautiful medical building was put next to Sego, and another beautiful building was put next to that, she could be comfortable with that. However, it’s the style of the commercial space. She wants it to look nice, and she would prefer to not have doors facing Redwood. It was agreed in the master plan that commercial on Redwood was the preference, instead of residential, because no one really loved the Sego results; to repeat the mistake would be unfortunate. She asked about possibly shifting the two commercial buildings up to Redwood, and if there could still be one exit instead of two so there is only one drive. She also thinks the commercial building would do better, marketing-wise and economically, facing Redwood. Council Member Marlor loves that brick building as well, however it has been sitting for three years and they just barely got one tenant. That tells us that it is going to be very difficult to fill that building, and if a developer knows that, they are likely not to build the same kind of space. He asked if they also considered just putting in additional townhomes in that incubator space, or were they afraid of the density. South Jordan City 8 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 Mr. Adams said they are always worried about the density, that’s why they have tried this so many times. Council Member Marlor asked if they filled that flex space area with townhomes, what kind of density that would create. Mr. Adams did not have calculations for that. Council Member Marlor asked if they included the single family lot, and developed the whole thing with townhomes, what those numbers would be. Mr. Adams noted that would be their preference, but didn’t know what the numbers would be. Council Member Marlor said the problem is that building big boxes is no longer the popular choice, even building nice bigger buildings that look like an office building aren’t getting filled. If we tell someone to build a commercial building there, they know they will be unable to get tenants and will choose not to build. We need to accept the new reality of office space and how it works. Council Member Harris thinks it gets a little too mixed when we try to do both commercial and residential on this piece of land here, and it should be one or the other. He thinks the current neighbors’ reactions also need to be factored in. He appreciates that the owners recognize the desire for some commercial on Redwood Road, and they brought the flex space trying to meet past requests, but this doesn’t flow well to him. He does believe however that they are doing their best with the directions they have been given. Director Schaefermeyer said that early on, they also discussed continuing a mixed use residential so the back would be single family small lots, the front would be townhomes, and they could likely get it to the density levels that the council is comfortable with. The challenge is that the lot is not square in the back, and that’s not the best place for single family because it’s constrained. If they purchased the other land and squared it off, there could be potential for something like that. Council Member Zander asked if they could go back to the owner of the 0.43 acre spot and discuss a purchase. Mr. Adams said the owner just bought it, and he overpaid for it, so he could possibly be a part of this but he doesn’t know that he would sell the land. Director Schaefermeyer noted that if the density of the townhomes alone in Sego is something the council feels is important to this determination, they can certainly bring the council those numbers. Mr. Adams said he briefly looked at it before, and the townhomes alone in that project had a density in the twenties. South Jordan City 9 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 Manager Whatcott added that he drives and walks up and down Beckstead Lane all the time, and he likes the feel of it. Even when you get closer to this property, the backs of the stores is what you see with walls and nice landscaping, so there isn’t a weird commercial feeling to it. When you get to the end at 11400 South, at the very last section you have the carwash and those buildings, but they are nicely done and it doesn’t really detract from the feeling. As a resident, he would like to keep it residential along Beckstead Lane as the area has a residential feel. Council Member Marlor asked how the current section with a pizza place, Mexican restaurant, etc., is doing. Director of Commerce Brian Preece said one of his neighbors just bought the Mexican place, it was struggling and they are still struggling to keep it going; the pizza place is gone. Council Member Marlor said that those little infill commercial spots just aren’t doing well right now, so for us to say they should put a commercial building there, not industrial and not office, just doesn’t seem viable with the potential of constant turnover or constant vacancies. That might look good on Redwood, but then what goes behind it. Director Preece said that everybody right now wants the office/warehouse space, and that’s what’s being built everywhere. That doesn’t mean we have to do it, but if you look everywhere the incubator space is what’s being built. Mayor Ramsey concluded that it seems like some voices are leaning towards making it all housing or all commercial, and those voices seem to be more for all housing, knowing that the potential for that is possibly 20 units to the acre. She asked the council if that is what they are hearing from each other as well. Council Member McGuire is leaning more towards the residential aspect, even with the higher density. Part of the higher density is that it’s along a major road where they can keep that density up front and fill in the backside with lower density and single-family style housing. That would help with the feel of density; lower density along Beckstead ties it in with that established neighborhood and higher density along Redwood ties in with Sego. Council Member Zander reminded everyone of the time they let the big chunk of commercial land by Costco get turned over to the 55+ community. She stated her and Council Member Harris were the only ones that voted no with a two to three vote on 11/21/2017, and the staff was urging them to not give up another parcel of commercial space; they have done that a few times as a council. If they turn this whole thing over to residential, which would easily make sense, they are setting a precedence for the entire Redwood Corridor. When that was in her district, she constantly had developers contacting her asking to put in residential. The reality is that anyone can make money off residential anywhere in the city, and if we continue to let that happen we will lose all our commercial space. She is defending the fact that they shouldn’t just be throwing in residential because it’s easier, even though it would fit and look nice, because if we keep turning Redwood over to residential, future councils will wonder what they were thinking. That being said, she is uncomfortable with all the options that have been discussed tonight. She is not South Jordan City 10 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 sure what the answer is, but she would like to have this sent back to the drawing board to see what else can be done besides residential. Council Member Harris also feels it is important to preserve our commercial space, but they also need to look at the impacts to the neighborhood if they mingle the two uses together. If they are going to do commercial there, which he would be okay with, it needs to be done the right way; he doesn’t know if mingling in this residential and commercial will flow the way they want, and that’s the challenge. Council Member Shelton said that he’d like to see the townhomes continue along Redwood for this piece of property, with a small subdivision in the back like Council Member McGuire was describing. Council Member Marlor said that if there were some commercial on the north side, then additional commercial might fit somehow in that area where there is higher density townhomes. This is a real tough commercial development project and he is still trying to figure out what you would put in there from a commercial standpoint. He is not sure how they would make that viable when that beautiful office building has been sitting mostly vacant for almost three years. He is not in favor of “high density,” but he thinks attractive townhomes is one of the few options here. They knew when they were building out Redwood Road that they would hit this problem, which is that some of these infill areas are going to be hard to fill successfully. Manager Whatcott asked how Council Member Marlor feels about the office condo complex he is currently in, is there a market for that. Council Member Marlor responded that’s why he bought there. He thinks you could build some smaller buildings, certainly in the back, not as flex space but as office condos. In many cases, businesses are buying the entire building so they have room to expand into the other units in the future. His office is north of South Jordan Parkway, with the entrance off 1055 West. You enter west of the fire department, and there is planned to be 13 buildings with them just finishing Building #8. They are selling all of the units just as fast as they can build them, and he said that might be an option for them to check out and see if it’s something they could make work. Council Member Harris said that these are right next to his house and they are quiet neighbors. Manager Whatcott wondered if you could put something like that with a frontage on Redwood, with the back being some kind of residential product. If not, those do look and feel quite different than what is being proposed. Council Member Marlor said that they don’t necessarily have to be right on the road, as the ones by him are not and they are selling just as fast as they are being built. They are essentially professional office spaces. In his building they have a CPA who bought the two floors below his office, along with other tenants, but there is nothing industrial going on there and they are only office buildings. Many businesses are buying the whole building with the intention of occupying South Jordan City 11 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 only some of them and leasing out the other floors until they expand and they can start using those other spaces. Manager Whatcott said the only product like that on Redwood Road is by Merit Medical and they have been there for years. Merit Medical continues to buy them to get the space for expansion. Council Member Marlor said something like that would be an easy sell, but if that is not feasible then he suggested looking at alternate densities for the townhomes throughout the space. He thinks the flex space is an idea, but he doesn’t think it quite fits right there. Council Member Marlor and Mayor Ramsey agreed that Council Member Marlor’s suggestion was something they could support. Mayor Ramsey said this council is very mindful of the developer’s needs, they want to be very mindful and aware of how they can work to make a project work for the developer as well; that really matters to them, and this has been a really good council to do that and try to get to the right outcomes. She agrees with the assessment that the office condos would look good there with townhomes behind it, and also that there is probably a very real market for the developer financially and from a business standpoint to do well with that. Mr. Adams said he is not familiar with those types of buildings, but he is willing to look into it. Director Schaefermeyer said there have been discussions about the mostly vacant building nearby, and they don’t know if there is a difference between leasing and selling a product like the office condos. Council Member Marlor said they are selling so fast because they are condos, they are ownership and there isn’t really a lot of traffic that comes to them. He might have a client that comes to his office once a week, the CPAs have a few that come in the spring, but other than that there isn’t as much need for large amounts of parking and that has been a positive factor as well. They are also still successful, despite not facing a road or being in a busy location. These businesses aren’t ones that need commercial space or traffic to continue. For many, these are ideal instead of working at home so they have more of a business environment where they can invite clients and have a few employees. Director Schaefermeyer said part of his position is to give good advice so these conversations can get somewhere, and they came to him after all this time working with a staff member to move forward. They talked through many of these issues, and he’s not saying the flex space in the back is the best idea, but density has always been an issue. He is hearing both that they need to re-look at the density, but also that they need to do more commercial, so he is not sure what direction the developer is getting at this point. The council has identified many of the problems he has discussed with the developer already, the challenge with residential is fitting within the density requirements for this property unless they switch to commercial and change things. South Jordan City 12 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 Director Preece said the dilemma is the village mixed use zone, and that it never made sense. They are trying to put too much mixed use on too small of a property, and to him it seems like we need to consider Redwood Road as mixed use with some areas for business and some for residential. However, when they try to do too much mixed use on one parcel it just doesn’t work. Council Member Shelton likes either option, some condo office with residential, or maybe the whole thing as office condos. Council Member Marlor thinks if they could build the two story office buildings, they tend to look a lot more like a nice condo or residential area; they don’t look industrial to him, so he thinks that would fit. One thing he thinks they were really after on Redwood Road was sales tax, and some of the businesses in his complex would have sales tax, but they tend to be mostly an office type of environment. Director Schaefermeyer added that part of the reason they are here with the PD floating zone is the inclusion of housing. Otherwise, if they were going straight commercial there is a zone that works for that and this would be done through the regular rezone process. Mayor Ramsey asked Mr. Adams if the concept presented today is what he really wants to see on this parcel. If not, what would he really like to have there. Mr. Adams said he is not the property owner, as he had to leave, but this is something he really wanted to build there. He has been looking for flex space as he has another business and can’t find that space anywhere. He will hold ownership of those buildings, and take one of them for himself. Council Member Zander asked what the owner would be putting in that flex space building. Mr. Adams said some kind of supplies for his HVAC business. He doesn’t believe the owners would be interested in all commercial, as was mentioned there is already a building there that is sitting vacant and they were also approved to build the exact same building on the lot just south of it and they will build it when the first building is finally leased. Council Member Marlor doesn’t believe that incubator space makes a lot of sense in that corridor. He agrees with the property owner that they could sell a ton of those along Redwood if they were there, but he doesn’t feel they fit there around higher density and nicer homes. Council Member Shelton is not comfortable with incubator space either. Council Member Zander might only be comfortable with incubator space if it was on the exact opposite side, on the south side, where it’s abutting someone’s parking lot area as opposed to backing up to residents. She would prefer to see some mixed use there, and appreciated Director Preece’s comment about thinking about Redwood Road as all mixed use. Her preference is not to put all residential in there, and we should be a little more thoughtful than that. South Jordan City 13 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 Council Member McGuire liked Council Member Marlor’s idea of looking into putting in some office condos, then filling in with some residential. He is not a fan of the flex space being along Beckstead. Council Member Harris doesn’t have a huge issue with flex space if it’s done right. There is some that looks pretty industrial, but you can also do it in a way that looks nice and has curb appeal. It is usually just people storing stuff in there, and that’s not any more intrusive than office, but it needs to be done right. He would want to see it done high end, something that flows with Sego. Mr. Adams added that they would be nice, designed to flow with the surrounding area as the owners are going to maintain ownership of those buildings, and there are multiple other options besides just the tilt-up concrete. Council Member Harris believes they as a council need to pay close attention to where the commercial needs are in the city, and there is a need for flex space. If we want to continue to bring commercial, we need to find a way to get that done; otherwise, those spaces will be filled in with residential. Council Member Zander said that if they made that flex space look amazing, pulled it off the fence line and put trees in there, treating the flex space buildings more like a house, that would be more palatable. If they committed to some nice landscaping, that would be nicer to look at than a townhome. Council Member Harris would like to see pictures of how they could make this flex space look the way they have described, appealing to those on Redwood and Beckstead. Mr. Adams said they can look at flipping things, putting the residential in the back. If he were one of the single family homeowners there he would rather see a two story building over a three story townhome. When the businesses are in operation, they will be working and the neighbors won’t see even a delivery truck. Mayor Ramsey summarized the council’s comments and asked for Mr. Adams to come back with what it could look like if the commercial space went along Redwood Road with the homes behind it, as that’s what the council needs to see to decide if it will work. E.2. Rise Townhomes, PD Floating Zone Project: 10657 South 1055 West (By DIA Andy Welch). Director Schaefermeyer briefly introduced the location, concept plan and history of this area. He also introduced his prepared presentation for this proposal (Attachment B). Council Member Harris has met with the applicant and shared with them some of the things that the council is looking for to help them through this process. South Jordan City 14 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 Chase Andrizzi appreciated meeting with Council Member Harris and his suggestions, and noted that they have also met with staff a few times for direction and guidance. Nate Shipp and Bryan Flamm introduced themselves to the council. Council Member Marlor asked if David Layton is still a potential investor in this project. Mr. Andrizzi responded that David Layton, his dad, Jeff Lamb and Bill Child own River Park and are also the investors in this project. Council Member Marlor indicated that he has a relationship with the previously mentioned investors, but he has no financial interest in this project or anything related to this project as David Layton is his brother-in-law. Mr. Andrizzi referred to the site map on Attachment B, and pointed out that the south end of the cemetery on 1055 West is the highest point of the site; he believes the streets have about a 7% maximum. They have tried to orient the density, looking at putting the twin homes at the highest point with the best views. Bryan Flamm added that the parcel against 1055 West isn’t greater than a half-acre lot, and would access separately from the subdivision off of 1055 West. Council Member McGuire asked if there is a road to connect that parcel on to 1055 West. Mr. Flamm said they have worked with the fire chief, and that would be a gated emergency egress that would go away once that road connected. Nate Shipp said the intent is that ultimately the road coming off the roundabout will go to the north and connect 10600 South, making that the main ingress and egress. Mr. Andrizzi described the site plan shown in Attachment B as a mixture of twin homes, townhomes and one single-family lot. He reviewed the tables on Attachment B showing the numbers related to unit counts and density. They would like to improve an additional 0.7 acres on a city park site, including that in their total acreage and adding six twin homes to the overall unit count. They are proposing some on site amenities as well, along with the proposed offsite amenity improvements; all are shown in Attachment B. Council Member Zander asked what is planned for the circle shown on the map. Mr. Andrizzi said that would be a family/community space that could be rented out, with a playground. He showed the proposed sites for the offsite pickleball improvement. They were initially proposing two pickleball courts with seating, lighting and landscaping. However, after speaking with Council Member Harris and staff, it seemed to make more sense to condense more pickleball courts on to the site and leave the other stuff out. They are proposing to build two of South Jordan City 15 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 those courts, with the city paying for the other four. They would dedicate their two to the city and the city would own and maintain all six once installed. Mr. Shipp said that they want anyone walking out of any unit to have instant access to a trail, and be able to go to the community amenities on a trail. Also, specific to this location they have the River Park trail system and they want people to be able to get to those trails from the local ones right outside their doors. He noted that he is using sidewalk and trail as interchangeable inside the project. Mr. Andrizzi continued reviewing Attachment B, showing renderings with design elements, include the site plan with the layout and placement of twin homes along the northwestern border near the existing homes to take away some of the impact. All of their townhomes and twin homes will have two car garages. Mr. Shipp shared the depictions of the twin homes and parking numbers from Attachment B. Mr. Flamm added that they have learned over the years that more parking is better, and that model homes with no parking is a turnoff for potential residents. They have found that townhomes need more parking as garages are utilized for many other things. All of these units have basements as well, many unfinished, which gives more storage than slab on grade townhomes you usually see. Mr. Shipp said that as they’ve met with Council Member Harris and staff, they have discovered that what they desire to build is what the council and staff want them to build based on the current market, including accessibility/walkability and parking. The four parking stalls per unit in many cities is way over parked, but it’s needed no matter what. Mayor Ramsey said more often than not they are asked to go minimal on parking, but it is never enough for those who live there. Council Member Zander asked if there will be on-street parking allowed. Mr. Flamm said they had initially planned this with 26 foot drivable widths, but after working with staff they brought that up to 28 feet. That allows for parking on one side in some areas. Regarding the gate, 95% of the traffic will go through River Park which is where the bigger roads and amenities will be. However, without the gate some would go the other way and they have been told that staff does not want more traffic on 1055 West. Mr. Shipp said the gate is not meant to create a gated community, it is only to guard against potential issues in the future with traffic on 1055 West. Mr. Andrizzi repeated that they anticipate vacating that access once 10840 South goes through. Mr. Shipp wanted to be up front and said they have not yet held a neighborhood meeting, but they have knocked on doors that align their property to introduce themselves and unofficially ask South Jordan City 16 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 about the impact of their road and views. They have tried to be sensitive to what they’ve heard so far, which is smaller twin homes, with less impact up against that property and the proposed gate. Council Member McGuire asked where the additional six pickleball units would be. Mr. Shipp said the layout in Attachment B includes the six pickleball courts. Mr. Andrizzi said if they removed those six units they would change some of the townhomes to twin homes. Mr. Flamm addressed the first site they discussed with staff, the East River Park, which is an all abilities park now. That park brings in tons of people, and there are large grass areas they feel would fit the desired pickleball courts, and that is Associate Director of Parks Colby Hill’s preferred location. Lights on the courts are open to discussion, as is parking for the courts which would provide some natural overflow parking. In some of their developments they have chosen not to do lights, as pickleball is quite loud and it’s a natural way to reduce that noise at night for the residents. There are no residents around this proposed site, so lights would make sense here. Mr. Andrizzi said their initial proposal is to do two of the pickleball courts, along with some other things. After meeting with staff and Council Member Harris they realized they need more than just two courts, and it makes more sense to make it more programmable. Deputy Manager Lewis noted that the costs of pickleball courts in 2018 was $62,000 per court, so they are going to be much more now. Mr. Flamm said there is a county park near him, Wheadon Farms in Draper, which has a similar layout and if they couldn’t do all the pickleball courts they could use that space to build pavilions instead like Wheadon Farms. Impact fees from the project can help also. Mr. Andrizzi said that impact fees for multifamily homes are $2,500 per unit. Director Schaefermeyer said that those fees are assessed at building permit. Mr. Flamm said they would offer to get credits for those fees as they pull the permits. Mr. Shipp said they could apply that dollar amount up front, in addition to the money they are contributing, so they would be built together all at once. Deputy Manager Lewis noted that doing this would mean those are impact fees they no longer have for other projects that have already been identified. Manager Whatcott said to do this, they would have to go back and add these to those fee plans to use them for this project. They could also put off another project they already planned to do and replace it with this. South Jordan City 17 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 Mr. Shipp said they are open to all of those options. They don’t just want to raise the level of this project, they want to raise the level of everyone’s living standard a little bit with these projects. Council Member Zander noted that they don’t give this kind of density to those who don’t give back, and she appreciated that they came here ready with those plans. Mr. Flamm discussed more details about the concept plan for the park improvement with the council members. Mr. Andrizzi noted that it appears the council’s preference would be to have the park on the east park location, and the council agreed with that. Mayor Ramsey thanked the presenters for being prepared and providing as much information as possible, as well as listening to recommendations from staff. Council Member Harris thanked them for meeting with him to get to this spot. He noted that the owners of River Park are behind this, and they know there is a need for housing for those working in those office buildings. They recognized that they needed twin homes around the edges to lessen the impact, focus on green space, and have a good quality product with parking and garage space. Considering the investment this organization has made into our city, he would love for us to commit to the pickleball courts via impact fees. Council Member McGuire is comfortable with this and doesn’t have any major concerns. He would prefer to see more single-family homes in that area based on the current surrounding area. Council Member Zander appreciates what they’ve come to the table with and noted that Mr. Flamm has a great relationship with this River Park area. She asked if River Park would come to the table and pay for two more pickleball courts, because their employees in all those buildings will be using them during the day. Mr. Flamm will ask them, but they did just put in pickleball courts of their own in River Park. They are private and in-between Building #1 and the retail. Council Member Zander asked if they would pay for two more so each entity was covering two of the courts, totaling six, and they would be open to the public. Mr. Flamm agreed to ask them. Council Member Zander would like to discuss the gate some more before approval, but the parking was a huge positive for her and she hopes there will be just as many trees as there are on the slides in Attachment B. Council Member Shelton shared his concerns about the townhomes with no driveways, he would prefer to see driveways in there. South Jordan City 18 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 Mr. Flamm explained that they have an internal code to look at unit types by number of bedrooms, whether they have driveways and their guest parking count fluctuates internally based on whether this is a driveway or not and decides whether more guest parking is needed. Council Member Shelton is also concerned with putting multifamily housing in an area that is traditionally not, but there isn’t a lot of housing close by there. Mr. Shipp noted that wasn’t addressed in their presentation, but when they originally started looking at this property there was a consideration to expanding River Park and doing additional office buildings. As they worked with the ownership group there, it came back that this is about preservation of the existing project. The number one request of River Park tenants currently is for this kind of housing for their tenants; they need to have a place for the people who work here to live nearby. Those employees could buy homes there, but that’s not everyone that works there. This is the housing component that has the most need for those in that area, so this is also meeting the demand of preserving the investment that the office park represents and being able to provide to the tenants what they are asking for as you look at the big picture. Council Member Marlor appreciates seeing a type of final product. At their previous meeting, the density was probably double what it is tonight, and he believes his suggestion was to get under eight or there will be a problem. He is pleased to see the project and thinks they’ve done a great job. It fits in a number of ways and the fact that there are that many people working in those buildings, with many of them commuting a long way and preferring not to, is right on point. He agrees with Council Member McGuire that it would be nice to see a bunch of single family lots through there, and they’d be able to sell them, but there is a huge demand for nice housing that is in close proximity to where you work. Mayor Ramsey asked if there will be any deliberate marketing if this is built to the business in River Park. Mr. Flamm said most likely yes, as they control all their own property management for the business park and will oversee the property management for the residential as well. It would make sense for that housing to be directly correlated. Mayor Ramsey appreciated that they came here with the 28 foot roads, two car garages with most units having two car driveways, and that they accounted for the additional parking. Those are the things they end up arguing over all the time, and this was refreshing to see. Council Member Marlor asked about dedicating a few affordable housing units, as we have the money for it and it would be attractive. Council Member McGuire said the city money is already tied up in other things. Director Schaefermeyer clarified that this is a for lease product, not a for sale product being proposed. South Jordan City 19 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 Council Member Zander noted she was unaware that these were not for sale and that was discussed. Mr. Andrizzi said their plan is to own these long-term and lease them out. Mr. Flamm noted they have owned River Park for this long, and they bought this additional piece a few years ago with the intent of making sure it was done right with the right product and not just another office building on the hill. When they bought it they debated whether to sell or lease them as they have done both over the years, but right now with where the market is going, it seems to make more sense to have these for lease. They will own them as individual units, which gives them the ability down the road if something changes in the market to be able to sell them to individual owners. Council Member Zander said they will make more money leasing there, but she still believes that owner occupied people invest in the city differently because they are permanent. Director Preece said something to think about is that The Point will be developing just like this, and River Park will be competing with The Point for tenants in those buildings. It makes sense as to why they would want their tenant’s close, as that’s how The Point is being designed. Council Member Zander asked if they could do them owner occupied, do they believe they would sell them. Mr. Shipp said it’s not so much a question of whether they would sell, because they would, but the level of finish and higher quality they are planning is easier to get to under a for lease situation. Also, because it’s considered an amenity for the office park, the for sale product doesn’t turn over quite as frequently. The for lease option would mean they could offer this to tenants as they hire employees and have immediate space available. From an office standpoint this is more in line with objective of providing employee housing nearby. Council Member Harris said these kinds of communities are newer to Utah, but they are starting to show up in other parts of the country where there are master planned communities with more than the traditional apartments. They have units like these that are rented out, and there is a need for high-end executive houses that we don’t really have around this area. For him, he knew these would be for lease, but as mentioned previously he would only be okay with this if these are very high-end, executive type housing. Mayor Ramsey shared that her hopes for this sank when she found out it was all for lease, as the risk from the municipal perspective having an entire subdivision go in that is all for lease is huge. If they weren’t who they are, she would not say yes to this because the risk is too high. However, River Park has an established reputation that is proven; actions speak louder than words and we have seen it. Also, Director Preece’s comments make sense, we will have to continue to compete as other areas grow to keep businesses here, and housing is a need. She is now hearing from residents asking why all the retail/commercial space is going into Riverton now, and she doesn’t want to see The Point pull our businesses, especially from River Park. She is a trustee of The South Jordan City 20 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 Point, however she doesn’t want to lose what we have here simply because we don’t have this and these newer places do. Mr. Flamm said when they were developing River Park, they looked at it as more than just office buildings. They looked at the right gym, the right restaurants, etc., to get in there to make it a master planned community. Originally, housing wasn’t on their radar, but it has become a big need for that type of use here. They own Candlelight Homes and they have built thousands of for sale homes, but they have also built thousands of this very product for lease; done correctly, they both work very well and they are both managed to an exterior standpoint to the same high levels to ensure they continue looking good. This for lease option ties better to the businesses, so when employees leave and go somewhere else to work there is space for the next person. They are less likely to buy a home if they are not going to live there permanently. The last thing they want is to build things but sell it to a bunch of people that don’t actually work in River Park. This makes it so walkable and convenient for their tenants, and it’s why they originally came in with more density because they were trying to get to an even lower price point. The need is there, but they heard the council and came back with the lower density. Mr. Andrizzi said something he appreciates about this process with the PD overlay is that there is an accompanying development agreement. Hopefully, through that process, they can capture and mitigate many of these issues through the process. Council Member Shelton likes this as an amenity for the office park, and he can see why it makes sense as a for lease product. Council Member Marlor sees this as nice, upper end for those kind of homes. He thinks some of the higher executives will be in different areas but many of the day to day workers would probably be very interested in locating within walkable or biking distance. He is not necessarily opposed to leasing, not just from a council perspective but also from the perspective of being a council representative to the Architectural Review Committee he will have some fairly very high standards. Council Member Harris had the same feeling, he wanted to have these being a for sale product at the beginning. He wrestled with that, but he also took a step back and looked at everything River Park has in our community. There is a need within that community for this type of housing there, and he feels like they have landowner rights with that vast amount of land. If they have needs for housing in their area for the tenants in those office buildings and they are willing to build these out high end and do it right, he can be okay with it. He would rather have these sold, but he recognizes what the needs are in River Park. Mayor Ramsey said it sounds like she is hearing the council giving the green light to continue down this path, and everyone noted their agreement with the exception of Council Member Zander. Council Member Zander said the only way she would be onboard with this is if they came to the table with more pickleball courts. Her first comments were made under the assumption that these South Jordan City 21 City Council Study Meeting August 2, 2022 were going to be owner occupied. She didn’t appreciate not knowing that from the beginning, but she also doesn’t think they were trying to hide that and she didn’t understand that until the end of the meeting. Having known that, of course she sees the market demand, and of course there will be executives that want to live close and within walking distance. That is what The Point is going to try and do, as well as Downtown Daybreak, and it makes total sense. It is a different vibe than owner occupied, and she noted that this will be very lucrative for them and a great asset to the community and executive spaces. That being said, she would love to see them come to the table with more. Maybe River Park can be the ones to do that, because this will be a great tandem business model. She applauds their business model as it is brilliant, it makes all the sense in the world to want to do this, but she would like to see them give a little bit more. She is not opposed to this, but that is her request. Council Member McGuire didn’t have anything additional to add. Council Member Zander motioned to amend the agenda to table Item F.1. to a future meeting, take a five minute break, and then to move to Item G.1. Council Member McGuire seconded the motion; vote was unanimous in favor. F. Discussion Item F.1. Historic Status of 1055 West (By City Engineer Brad Klavano). **The agenda was amended to table this item and move it to a future meeting** RECESS CITY COUNCIL STUDY MEETING AND MOVE TO EXECUTIVE CLOSED SESSION G. Executive Closed Session E.1. Discussion of the purchase, exchange, or lease of real property. ADJOURN EXECUTIVE CLOSED SESSION AND RETURN TO CITY COUNCIL STUDY MEETING ADJOURNMENT Council Member Shelton motioned to adjourn the August 2, 2022 City Council Study Meeting. Council Member Marlor seconded the motion; vote was unanimous in favor. The August 2, 2022 City Council Study meeting adjourned at 9:14 p.m. This is a true and correct copy of the August 2, 2022 City Council Study Meeting Minutes, which were approved on August 16, 2022. 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