Planning & Zoning Commission

CITY OF TALLMADGE PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES THURSDAY, JUNE 2, 2022 COUNCIL CHAMBERS 7:00 p.m. CALL TO ORDER Chair Patrick Larson called the meeting to order at 7:00 pm. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE ROLL CALL Commission Members present: Patrick Larson Gerald Taylor Kevin Heilmeier A motion to excuse Mrs. Oliver and Mr. Ryder was made by Mr. Heilmeier and seconded by Mr. Taylor. All members voted in favor. (3-0) Administration present: Dave Kline, Mayor Megan Raber, Law Director Helene Hussing, Planning and Zoning Manager Mike Rorar, Director of Public Service ADOPTION OF MINUTES A motion to adopt the May 5, 2022 minutes was made by Mr. Taylor and seconded by Mr. Heilmeier. All members voted in favor. (3-0) AGENDA ADDITIONS None CORRESPONDENCE AND COMMUNICATIONS FILING Case PZ 22-06-01, Conditional Zoning for Telecommunication Tower and Antennae Applicant: TowerCo 2013, LLC Owner: Tallmadge City of Schools Board of Education Project Address: PN 6000312 (250) N. Munroe Rd Public Hearing: July 7, 2022, at 7:01 PM AGENDA ITEMS CASES Case PZ 22-05-01 Conditional Zoning For Review & Recommendation Public Hearing for Conditional Zoning: Adult Day Care/Vocational Habilitation Applicant: Individual Outcomes LLC Owner: SNP Management LLC Project Address: 143 Northwest Ave (PN 6008934)  Planning and Zoning Commission June 2, 2022 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Mrs. Hussing gave a short summary of the case. The representative for the case, Zach Grnach, was sworn in. Applicant added comments as to why they chose this building. Public Hearing opened at 7:07 pm. DISCUSSION Mr. Taylor: You indicated that you’re going to limit your clients to 16. Mr. Grnach: That’s how many I have now. Mr. Taylor: Do you plan on expanding that? Mr. Grnach: Yea, we have room to grow. Within reason. It depends on what each individual needs and what we can provide for them. Mrs. Hussing: As I mentioned, we had a Site Visit out there and that building is sufficient for this use. Mr. Heilmeier: Are your staff and clients there all day? Mr. Grnach: It depends on what we’re working on. If it's a work skill… we’re working with a bunch of places trying to get internships. We’re all over Tallmadge and all over the place every day because that’s just part of what is in their ISP. Mr. Heilmeier: The City made the comment that there is not enough parking but with the vacant spots, there will be? Mrs. Hussing: Actually there is plenty of parking. Our new Zoning Code limits the maximum number of parking and they exceed that but due to the vacant areas in those buildings around them, they can hold them in reserve. Mr. Larson: So this is exactly the same operation you have currently have at South Ave, correct? Mr. Grnach: Correct. We’re just moving locations. Mr. Larson: The Zoning is the same, the use is the same, handicap access is adequate… So we need to review some of the standards. Are we limiting the number of clients? Mrs. Raber: They have to meet the building code standards and licensing requirements. Mr. Taylor: I didn’t see any signage for handicap parking. Will there have to be signage? Mrs. Hussing: The property owner is going to delineate all the parking spots. We told him he had to maintain those and he will delineate those according to the site plan. Public Hearing closed at 7:13 Discussion on Standards (1) The proposed use shall be in harmony with the existing or intended character of the zone or district and nearby affected zones and districts and shall not change the essential character of the zones and districts; Comment: The use is conditionally permitted in the Commercial C-3 District. There will be no change to site plan and all uses will be indoors. Please see the applicant’s responses for the Conditional Use Standards. All members agreed. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Page 2  Planning and Zoning Commission June 2, 2022 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ (2) The proposed use shall not adversely affect the use of adjacent property; All members agreed. (3) The proposed use shall not adversely affect the health, safety, morals, or welfare of persons residing or working in the neighborhood; All members agreed. (4) The proposed use shall be served adequately by public facilities and services such as, but not limited to, roads, police and fire protection, storm water facilities, water, sanitary sewer and schools; All members agreed. (5) The proposed use shall not impose a traffic impact upon the public right-of-way significantly different from that anticipated from permitted uses of the zone or district; All members agreed. (6) The proposed use shall be in accord with the general and specific objectives, and the purpose and intent of this Zoning Code compatible with the guiding plan documents and ordinances of the City; All members agreed. (7) The proposed use shall be found to meet the definition and intent of a use specifically listed as a conditional use in the zone or district in which the subject property is situated. All members agreed. The following motion was made by Mr. Taylor and seconded by Mr. Heilmeier: I move to recommend to Council to ADOPT Item PZ 22-05-01, a Conditional Use Zoning Certificate for Adult Day Care/Vocational Habilitation at 143 Northwest Ave, Building B, Applicant is Individual Outcomes LLC, Owner is SNP Management LLC based on the plans and application submitted to the Planning & Zoning Department on April 21, 2022 subject to the following conditions, modifications and/or amendments in addition to those set forth in Tallmadge Codified Ordinance Section 1102.12 and Section 1104.07 E (17), based on the evidence presented, that: 1. Approval is granted by the Planning & Zoning Department for signage installation; 2. Installation of a Knox Box by front entrance with a master key added for the first-floor doors and all interior locked doors; and 3. All exterior doors to be numbered inside and out. ADDITIONAL COMMENTS FROM COMMISSION None All members voted in favor. (3-0) PZ 22-06-02 Site Plan Review For Review & Approval Medical Office Applicant: David Pelligra and Architects, Inc. Owner: David Dawson, D&M Summit Holdings LLC Project Location: PN 6007031 – Metric Dr Mrs. Hussing gave a short summary of the case. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Page 3  Planning and Zoning Commission June 2, 2022 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ The representative for the case, David Pelligra, stated that the sign will be submitted for future approval. DISCUSSION Mr. Taylor: Is the dumpster information enough to approve…? Mrs. Hussing: There is a condition in the motion that we will need the detail for that. Mr. Taylor: I noticed the landscaping on the parking lot screening on the north side of the property is not screened for those 8 cars along that property line. I think that needs to be screened with continuous shrubs along there, to meet our requirements. When I was out there, I noticed that you could see on Dr. Sisco’s property, he did provide screening even though the property next door was vacant and was heavily wooded. So, for the future, whoever buys the next lot, you'd already have the screening in for that. Mr. Pelligra: Understood. There is an existing tree line there that we were not going to remove if it's not disturbed. Mr. Taylor: But that’s someone else’s property, right? Mr. Pelligra: Some of those trees are on our property. There is probably enough room, we could put some landscaping there. I'm just a little more concerned when we start to put it on that side as far as snow removal and where the snow is being pushed but I'd be happy to take a look at it. Mr. Taylor: We did make Dr. Sisco provide that and this is a similar situation. Mr. Pelligra submitted a letter from Drs. David and Michelle Dawson. Letter was read into the record. Mr. Larson: There was a comment made in the memo about the burning bush, has that been addressed? Mr. Pelligra: We’ve not changed it yet but we can pick out a substitute. Mr. Larson: Ok, that’s a condition that we’ll add. Getting back to the screening, that’s part of our Zoning Code that parking lots are always screened for adjacent properties. It will become an impact when someone develops that other property. Mr. Pelligra: If that’s what’s needed, we will be happy to do it. Mr. Taylor: I don’t think it's too much to ask for those 8 cars to be screened. Mr. Larson: Do we want to address the sign issue now or let it go because there's not really a sign plan. Mrs. Hussing: You could or you could just exclude the sign from your approval. The following motion was made by Mr. Larson and seconded by Mr. Heilmeier: I move to approve the Site Plan Review Application for Case PZ 22-06-02, applicant David Pelligra and Architects, Inc. and owner D&M Summit Holdings LLC at PN 6007031 on Metric Drive for a Medical Office Building based on the application and plans submitted May 19 & 20, 2022 to the Planning & Zoning Department, subject to the following approvals, conditions, modifications and/or amendments, based on the evidence presented: 1. Installation of any “Future” structures as presented on the Site Plan are excluded from approval; 2. Hours of construction shall comply with city ordinances; _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Page 4  Planning and Zoning Commission June 2, 2022 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 3. Application for signage and dumpster enclosure are submitted to the Planning & Zoning Department for approval; 4. Approval by Summit County Department of Building Standards; 5. Subject to review and approval by City Engineer and all necessary approvals of Summit County Soil & Water Conservation District; 6. All utility plans, connections and inspections subject to City of Tallmadge construction standards by review and approval of Public Service Department; 7. All installations are met and approved by the City of Tallmadge Fire Department and Summit County Department of Building Standards; 8. The Landscape must be installed prior to occupancy with a Maintenance Bond in the amount of 10% of the estimated cost of landscaping must be posted and held for a period of 2 years; 9. If there are circumstances where the landscaping cannot be installed due to unforeseen circumstances or inclement weather, the City may require a performance bond of sufficient amount to cover the cost of materials and labor to install the landscaping; 10. Submittal to the Planning & Zoning Commission for approval on any future phases of the site plan or substantive changes to this phase, including but not limited to the addition of lighting; 11. Winged burning bush to be eliminated and updated landscaping plan with replacement to be submitted to the Planning and Zoning Department for approval; 12. Screening shall be installed by the 8 parking spots on the north side of the property; 13. Ground sign with complementary landscaping is excluded from this approval. All members present voted in favor. (3-0) PZ 22-06-03 Variance from Riparian Setback For Review & Approval Patio and Walkway Project Applicant: Richard Harwood Owner: Lundy M Harwood, Trustee Project Location: 281 Cherry Ridge (PN 6010390) Mrs. Hussing gave a short summary of this case. The representative for the case Richard Harwood had nothing to add at this time. DISCUSSION Mr. Taylor: Were you aware of the riparian setback when you bought the property? Mr. Harwood: Yes. Mr. Taylor: Was there something in the deed or on the plat? Mr. Harwood: On my site plan. Mr. Taylor: So you were aware of the area. Ok, you indicate that you're going to install a fence, which is a little bit in the riparian setback. Mr. Harwood: It goes further back, yes. Mr. Taylor: Is that permitted in the riparian setback? Mr. Rorar: Soil and Water allows that to occur in the riparian setback, however, I'd like to see exactly how far back he plans on going. I can't tell from that drawing how far back he plans on going. How close are you to the streams edge, I guess would be my question? _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Page 5  Planning and Zoning Commission June 2, 2022 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Mr. Harwood: Well I submitted 2 pictures of my backyard and the fence line is going to be just where the developer graded the back end of our property, which is a little further back than the riparian area line, but I was not going into any area that's been undisturbed at this point and then we are going to add back in vegetation once we get that fence established. Mr. Rorar: So, is this within that 5-foot disturbance? Mr. Harwood: No, it is further back. Talking to Soil and Water and just looking at the neighborhood, we're only really allowed one type of fence anyway, and it allows water flow. It's all open. It's not like an enclosed fence at all. We have two dogs, so we wanted some area in the back. Mr. Taylor: So that area would just be replanted and natural just the way it was before? Mr. Harwood: I showed it as grass because at this point it seemed I didn't think that was a problem based on what I've seen in the area already, but I downloaded and have the complete list of plantings. We really were going to wait until we had the first part done, and then we would try to put it back as virgin as we could. Mr. Taylor: So the only thing that's going to really encroach in the riparian setback is that sidewalk and the stone steps coming back towards the house. Mr. Harwood: Correct. Mr. Taylor: Ok, and Summit Soil and Water stated that the sidewalk would [not] be a negative impact on the area but their comment is to revegetate the area with plants and grasses somewhat but you're going to have two dogs back there running around? Mr. Harwood: A little bit, yes. They're not very big. Mr. Taylor: So the riparian setback area, I think the rules state that you're not supposed to maintain it, you're just supposed to let it be natural, is that correct? Mr. Rorar: That is correct. Mr. Taylor: So you're not supposed to cut it or mow it… Mr. Harwood: Well, we were going to put a little bit of grass, but I was really going to leave that to see whatever the Planning Commission felt we could do at this point. Right now it is bare earth. The developer took it back to about where the fence line is now. So all we're going to do is just try to replace it. We're going to put some grass back there, a little bit, for the dogs and then plantings in accordance with the list. Mr. Taylor: That should slow the runoff from your property to the neighbor. Mr. Larson: That landscaping plan would have to be submitted to the Planning and Zoning Department or directly to Summit Soil? Mrs. Hussing: Summit Soil would review that. Mr. Larson: So you would have to submit a plan to Summit Soil before you did anything and they'll give you the direction on what needs to be planted and how you do it. So, it will just be a separate landscaping plan that you'd have to submit. Mr. Harwood: But my understanding is I can do what I'm requesting here, and then once we get that in place, I can submit the plan? Or do I have to do that before I am allowed this variance? _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Page 6  Planning and Zoning Commission June 2, 2022 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Mr. Larson: As far as the construction of the patio? Mr. Hussing: That's actually the request before you is if he's permitted to install that patio and walkway and the condition on there is that he submit, then, the landscaping plan to Summit Soil for approval. Mr. Larson: Alright, so we would also include the fence? Mrs. Hussing: The fence is not in question Mr. Larson: So we would give you the approval for your construction but then before you did anything to the landscaping portion, you would have to submit to Summit Soil your landscaping plan for approval. Mr. Harwood: That's what I understand, yes. The following motion was made by Mr. Taylor and seconded by Mr. Heilmeier: I move to approve the Application for Riparian Setback Variance for Item PZ 22-06-03, owner Lundy M Harwood Trustee and applicant Richard Harwood for the property located at 281 Cherry Ridge (PN 6010390) for a variance to permit the construction of a patio and walkway within the riparian setback boundary based on the plans and application submitted to the Zoning Department on May 19, 2022 and that there was a showing that: (1) The granting of such variance WILL NOT impair the functions of the riparian area. (2) The soil type and natural vegetation of the parcel as well as the percentage of the parcel that is in the 100-year floodplain DOES NOT apply. (3) The strict application of the provisions of these regulations WOULD result in degree of hardship placed on the applicant and the availability of alternatives to the proposed activity have been considered and subject to the following conditions, modifications and/or amendments based on the evidence presented: 1. Owner agrees to sign a “hold harmless” agreement, naming the City of Tallmadge, all reviewing agencies and acknowledging that they are building in the riparian setback at their own risk; 2. A notation of the Riparian Setback Variance Certificate is included on the recorded deed to the property and filed with the City; 3. A landscape plan is submitted to Summit Soil & Water Conservation District for the purpose of revegetation of the disturbed Riparian Setback area; 4. The Riparian Setback is delineated prior to moving any soils; 5. No further disturbance to the Riparian Setback. ADDITIONAL COMMENTS FROM COMMISSION None All members present voted in favor. (3-0) Case PZ 22-06-04 Variance from Riparian Setback For Review & Approval Landscape & Firepit and Hardscape Applicant/Owner: Nathanael M Billow Project Location: 271 Cherry Ridge (PN 6010389) Mrs. Hussing gave a short summary of this case. The representative for the case Nathanael Billow had nothing to add at this time. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Page 7  Planning and Zoning Commission June 2, 2022 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ DISCUSSION Mr. Larson: Summit Soil and Water is going to require that that be replanted with natural vegetation per our ordinance, based on a plan that needs to be submitted to Summit Soil and Water. Is that your understating? Mr. Billows: Yes, that is my understanding. My intention though, when I purchased the lot in 2020 you can actually see it in the top right photo and you can see that there's almost just like a natural grass, and that was existing prior to my purchase of the lot. Then, very similar to Mr. Harwood, when construction occurred, the builder completed a final grade and my request… what I was hoping to do was simply to plant green grass from the base of the fire pit and then the riparian line as it travels towards 532 actually goes from this angle up and to the right, I was just simply intending to plant grass there to cover up the existing clay. I wasn't intending to plant any like existing plants, vegetation, things like that. Just trying to restore it the way it was when I purchased it in 2020. Mr. Larson: But my understanding is that the regulation for riparian setback is that it be taken back to a natural vegetation state, not to a state that it was prior to, correct? Mr. Rorar: That is correct. Mr. Larson: Ok, so I think that’s the issue is that Summit Soil and Water is requiring that it be planted in such a way as to prevent… You know, back in the day, the riparian setback thing nobody worried about it. I remember 20 years ago living on a ditch and the way that the ditch was maintained was they just took a backhoe and they scooped stuff out of the ditch on the other side of where I live. Well, what that did was raise that level and lower my level and consequently get water in your backyard. So the whole repairing issue is to try to prevent those type of things and so that's a requirement that Summit Soil has is it needs to be returned to a natural vegetation state. Mr. Billows: Ok, I have no objection to that. I think that’s very fair. Mr. Taylor: Were you aware of the riparian setback when you purchased the property? Mr. Billows: Yes, I was. Mr. Taylor: Ok, and when your contractor started construction, was he aware of the riparian setback? Mr. Billows: Yes, the contractor I used was RB Stout. We were keenly aware of that. I was also very mindful of the riparian area, so when it came time to, if you call it, the plan, I wanted to be very minimally invasive with just planting of grass and then the brick paver patio that you see, it actually just sits down on top of the soil. It's not necessarily a structure, per say, but my intention was just to minimally disturb that area, plant grass and then just kind of return it the way that I found it. But I do understand there’s ordinances that require me to do more than that. But we were very well aware and the contractor was as well. Mr. Taylor: The picture sort of indicates that where the fire pit and the surround is, you've created a little bit of a swale between the back of your house and the fire pit, is that correct? Mr. Billows: It's actually not. If there's a map of my backyard, it's on the other side of the silt fence, and it looks like it's just a natural waterway and it's almost carved a V into the existing soil _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Page 8  Planning and Zoning Commission June 2, 2022 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ and our intention was to just kind of restore back to the way it was to allow the natural watercourse to take its way through the backyard. Mr. Taylor: So the swale or cut was there before? Mr. Billows: Yes, the swale was there. The area was disturbed in the installation of the brick paver patio. There was some machinery that they were doing when they moved the bricks back there and my intention was just to restore it the way it was before as not to interrupt the natural watercourse. Mr. Taylor: My concern was, if a swale was introduced there, maybe affect your neighboring property as far as run off. Mr. Rorar: I was back there the other day and I saw no evidence of any swale being constructed on his properly or the other applicants. I think it's just something that looks that way, I didn't see any evidence of it. Mr. Taylor: The fire pit, I guess that's considered a structure and that’s not really allowed. Mr. Billows: I'm not necessarily well versed on whether it is a structure or not, but I do know that the recommendation from RB Stout, and again they are a very reputable landscaper, was to use paver patio because it simply is laid down and it's not a structure and it's minimally invasive. That's why I chose to do that. Mr. Taylor: From what Summit Soil and Water is saying, they have no problem with this other than you need to replant it with vegetation that they recommend in that area, which is grasses and plants that’s going to be all around your fire pit area and there will be activity out there since you have a patio area surround with fire pit. You’re going to have chairs out there; you're going to have activities in the riparian setback area. Mr. Billows: Yes, that is correct. That is my intent. Mr. Taylor: But my concern is the activity in the surround…. If we do grant this variance, future people will come in and they're going to say, well, you gave it to him, why can't I have it? Why didn't you make him move his fire pit or surround to another area, so I'm Just looking at what will happen in future because of the encroachment at this time. Mr. Larson: How far is the surround from any structure you have in the back of the house? Mr. Billows: It's approximately 20 to 25 feet and you can see there's a silt fence that's delineated on this plot plan, and you see the riparian as well. The center of the fire pit, the circular surround, the center of that, is approximately 25 feet from the bank, and I believe the bank is what we would refer to as the high watermark that we measured the riparian from. Mr. Larson: So I guess my question is replanting this area in natural vegetation, whatever that looks like, it's not going to be something that can be mowed, so how are you going to get to that area? Again, we're going to have chairs on that surround and it's going to be an activity area, how are you going to get from there to the back of your house if you've got this natural vegetation? Mr. Billows: If you look at the photo here, you can see the riparian line is very close to the end of the circular surround and presently there has not been any natural growth there and I don't anticipate any natural vegetation impeding walking back to the actual circular surround just based on the travel from the rear of my house to the circular surround. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Page 9  Planning and Zoning Commission June 2, 2022 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ The following motion was made by Mr. Heilmeier and seconded by Mr. Taylor: I move to approve the Application for Riparian Setback Variance for Item PZ 22-06-04, owner/applicant Nathanael M Billow for the property located at 271 Cherry Ridge (PN 6010389) for a variance to permit the installation of a fire pit patio and grass landscaping to be installed per the plan within the riparian setback boundary based on the plans and application submitted to the Zoning Department on May 24, 2022 and that there was a showing that: (1) The granting of such variance WILL NOT impair the functions of the riparian area. (2) The soil type and natural vegetation of the parcel as well as the percentage of the parcel that is in the 100-year floodplain DOES NOT apply. (3) The strict application of the provisions of these regulations WOULD result in degree of hardship placed on the applicant and the availability of alternatives to the proposed activity have been considered and subject to the following conditions, modifications and/or amendments based on the evidence presented: 1. Owner agrees to sign a “hold harmless” agreement, naming the City of Tallmadge, all reviewing agencies and acknowledging that they are building in the riparian setback at their own risk; 2. A notation of the Riparian Setback Variance Certificate is included on the recorded deed to the property and filed with the City; 3. A landscape plan is submitted to Summit Soil & Water Conservation District for the purpose of revegetation of the disturbed Riparian Setback area; 4. The Riparian Setback is delineated prior to moving any soils; 5. No further disturbance to the Riparian Setback. ADDITIONAL COMMENTS FROM COMMISSION Mr. Taylor: I really disagree with the fire pit location. I think it should be moved. We're disturbing the riparian setback. I think this is the first time we've ever disturbed it this much and I'm really opposed to that. The idea of planting grass in that area to make it into an area for the family to enjoy. It is not inclined with the riparian setback, so I agree that no grass should be planted back there, and natural vegetation, the owner or applicant needs to send something to Summit Soil and Water showing the revegetation of that riparian setback area, so it's not disturbed any further. Mr. Larson: We had an issue a while back with a house that was actually encroaching on a riparian setback area and again, in the Hold Harmless Agreement, The City is acknowledging, buyer beware, you're building in a possible flood area, and so if you get flooded, you're not able to come back and say anything because it floods your basement. But we're not talking about a basement here and understand that we've kind of violated that area. If that creek floods with our hundred-year flood, that happens every five years in Tallmadge, you're going to get water in your fire pit. How much damage is that going to do? But you understand that that's the potential risk that you take by placing it there. So, at this point, I think I agree with what you're saying, but the fire pit is already there and I'd hate to see him actually have to move it. So as long as he complies with what's being requested by the City and by Summit Soil and Water, as far as repopulating that land… Mrs. Hussing: I wanted to just draw your attention to the City Engineers comments right there. The low fire pit and paved area should be considered a passive use, as the water can freely pass over the pavers and around the fire pit structure during a high-water event. The natural waterway should only be minimally impacted by the fire pit structure as long as the natural slope is maintained. So I think that kind of answers your concern. It really is on the property owner if the fire pit gets flooded or bricks come loose, but the City Engineer had no issues with that. All members present voted in favor. (3-0) _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Page 10  Planning and Zoning Commission June 2, 2022 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Case PZ 22-02-01 Site Plan Review (This case was tabled from the May 5 meeting) For Review & Approval Sign Modification to the existing Freestanding Sign Applicant: Albert Haddad, Ellet Sign Company Owner: David M & Gina Krieger, Seven Grains Natural Market Project Location: 92 West Ave (PN 6000248) The representative for the case, Gina Krieger commented: Mrs. Krieger: During the three previous times that we've been here, there have been three applications, three different designs that have been submitted. The first one was a 13-foot 6-inch pole sign. The second time was a 12-foot pole sign. The third time was an 11-foot monument sign. Three different compromises in all. And we are here tonight regarding the 11-foot monument sign that has been presented. Obviously, the purpose of signs are twofold. One is an identification marker for the business and #2 promotional and marketing piece for the business. The purpose of promotion and marketing is to drive business, to increase business. What I want to show right now, I'm just going to walk up really quick…The picture that you have is a picture of our existing sign with a pickup truck parked in front of it. I have a whole camera roll full of pictures, just like that. Different vehicles, different pickup trucks. That sign, the message on there, though you can't really read it, was advertising an event that we were having that day. It was a four-hour event. It was a wine and beer tasting that we hold the 1st Friday of every month. That event was for four hours. We bring in extra inventory. We have extra staffing. We brought in manufacturers reps who are there who drive in from a distance to participate in that event. To sample wine to answer questions for people, cheese tasting and so on. That truck was parked in front of that sign at approximately 4:50 and stayed there until 7:20. The couple who were in that truck were walking out as I was leaving the business. We both kind of walked out together and met at the same time. That message for that event was never seen by anybody driving by. At least not heading West to East. A lot of time and money put into that and it's kind of a sickening feeling when you have those events scheduled and you're trying to run a business, and that happens and you kind of don't have any control over it. So now, I know it's been suggested that we put our sign in the center of the parking lot out front, where there is some parking right along the front there and what we've tried to explain is that that parking is very much necessary. Today as many days, the entire center section full pretty much all day long. So going back to the reason for a sign and the definition of marketing is to drive business. So if we're going to write a check for 40,000+ dollars is what those signs are... we're going to write a check for that, we really want to make sure that it's not getting wasted, that it's getting seen. So if that 10-foot sign was being blocked, I'm quite sure a 6-foot sign is really going to get blocked by just an average SUV. Now we could clear out two to three parking spaces on either side of the sign to make sure there's a clear distance so that the sign can be read, the six-foot sign. So that would use up 1.5 spaces for the sign itself, and two to three on either side. There are only 10 spaces of parking along the front there so we're talking about removing 60 to 70% of that additional parking in the front for a sign to increase business. The math doesn't add up. It simply doesn’t add up. Why would we spend that kind of money and put a 6-foot sign upfront, removing that parking, if we're going to spend that money to drive business? What do I do with those extra people that that sign is going to bring in? Where do I house them? Where do I put them? I'm removing the extra parking. It's simply not a smart business move, and it's not a good use of funds. So what we have asked is to _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Page 11  Planning and Zoning Commission June 2, 2022 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ be able to keep the sign approximately where it is right now, it would move slightly forward. We think it's a very attractive, modern looking sign. It's very nice looking. It would achieve what we need to achieve. It allows us to have a message that can be seen at all times, no matter where anybody parks and it allows us to do our job and allows us to continue to grow and be the kind of business that we have been for the last 24 years in Tallmadge. And lastly, as we stand at our building, we look out just to the right due West, we see a very nice monument sign. A 12-foot monument sign with an EMC and we're trying to understand and if someone could help me understand how a 12-foot monument sign is ok and our 11-foot monument sign is a problem. So once again, the math doesn't add up. That's all I have to say. DISCUSSION Mrs. Raber: I just wanted to draw your attention, this is the 4th time that this matter has been before you, and at the last meeting you did have a very lengthy discussion with regard to the variances. I would draw your attention to the minutes of the May 5, 2022 meeting and they are on page 10. They begin on page 10 and continue for some pages. I would recommend that you maybe just review that one more time and see if there's any change in your position or additional thoughts or perspectives that you would want to add to that tonight, but otherwise I do not think it's necessary that you go through the same discussion that you had last month since I think at the time, by the end of that meeting, we thought that perhaps there might be another change submission and because you're looking at the same submission as the one that you discussed last meeting, I don't think it's necessary for you to go through all of that discussion again, unless you have any changes or modifications or additions to that discussion that you wanted to make. Mr. Taylor: Last month the mayor and the applicant came up with what we thought was a revised sketch… Mayor Kline: Let me correct you there, I came up with a little cut and paste drawing. It was the monument, the Seven Grains, instead of being off to the side, went to the bottom and I think that was at the 11th foot tall, same location as 11 foot here. So it's really that sign sliding it off proportionally, putting the electronic on top and taking the Seven Grains logo right there and putting it in the bottom there so that the electronic portion would still be the height that they were requesting. But the seven grains stagnant trailer would be on the sign, which is still clear above the electric box that is there. The electric box was about 48 inches and that would meet that, but they elected not to present that to us since the last meeting. So I don't know where you're at with that Gina. Mrs. Krieger: If I could say my background in marketing. I spent a lot of years in the marketing industry and to have the logo at the bottom is just not good. Mayor Kline: Well, your logo is on the building. Mrs. Krieger: I understand, but on the sign itself it is not an accepted form of marketing, I guess is the best way I could say it. Mr. Taylor: I thought we were already in agreement at the end of that meeting that that would be acceptable. Mayor Kline: Not by the applicant. He could not accept that at that meeting. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Page 12  Planning and Zoning Commission June 2, 2022 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Mrs. Raber: And they have elected not to ask for that. So they're asking for the sign that was presented at the May meeting which is why I'm saying that you've already gone through that analysis, just did not actually end up voting because this was a concept that was proposed at the conclusion of that meeting, and so they have elected not to bring that. So they're not bringing that tonight. They're bringing the one that was presented in May. Mayor Kline: So if the Seven Grains is the most important, flip flop and put that on top of the electronic, but I think we've exhausted everything we can exhaust. Mrs. Raber: I think that just part of that was because the overall size of the sign and so that keeps it with a lesser need for a variance. Mr. Larson: We're asking now for two very, very major variances in our Code and again, we said at the very beginning of this that we look at our Zoning Code and we also look at the intent of our Zoning Code and several years ago, when West Ave was improved, there was a push by the City to try to make things a little bit more uniform and most businesses complied by lowering their signs. Pole signs that were high were brought down. We went to more of a monument sign like a lot of other communities have gone to and we have some requirements to fit in with that. When we started this process, we were at five or six variances, which to me was just absolutely asking a lot of us to vary from our code for that reason. So now we're down to two, but the two are very substantial and I think one of the things that we've looked at as a Commission is the surrounding area and what does it mean to have a sign this imposing around an area where they're not, and I think that that kind of lends, in our view of this project, is we're trying to come up with something consistent and this just doesn't fit into that consistency. Mrs. Krieger: So you're saying that as the sign stands right now, if it was stacked and the Seven Grains was on top, then that would not be an issue. Mr. Larson: Well, that was something that was talked about at the at the very end of the meeting. Mayor Kline: Still keep it total height of 11 foot but the Seven Grains would go on top. Mr. Heilmeier: I would vote for that variance. Mrs. Krieger: The problem is that the EMC will be lower and it will be blocked. That's why we put it off to the side so that the EMC would have the benefit of the height. Mr. Larson: And I think that that was our issue is the profile of the sign was just too big for what's consistent in that area, and again, we've tried for several months to try to work this out but the bottom line is we as a Commission have got to look at the City’s interests in addition to your interests and so we're trying to come up with something that works for everybody. Mayor Kline: Could I make a friendly suggestion, if they like flipping that, we say 11 but to go compromise and go up to 12 feet, that gives them an extra foot of the electronic and it's well above the electronic box. The other sign that they're referring to from the street level it is not 12 foot, but from the ground level, because the Clark property drops down in a little bit, so you really go by the elevation of the street up. Mrs. Krieger: If I understand you, Mr. Mayor, did you just say if we go to 12 feet, we can keep the logo on top and the message center will be raised up 1 foot so it will not get blocked? _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Page 13  Planning and Zoning Commission June 2, 2022 ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Mayor Kline: So the total height of the sign, and I'm looking at that picture there, total maximum height from the ground level is 12 feet to the top of the Seven Grains sign. Mr. Taylor: We seem to be designing these signs on the back of a cocktail napkin. If we approve something, I'd like to see a final sign drawing. Subject to the final drawing because I don't know what we're going to get. I mean, is it going to be 12-foot, 11.5-foot, 12.5-foot? Depending on the characters there, the width of the electronic message board… whatever we decide, I'd like to see a final plan. Mrs. Raber: Well, I think if you put the maximums on it and then it has to be submitted to the Zoning Department and as long as it does not exceed those maximums that you set on it, then they would verify that. Mr. Taylor: That would be acceptable? Ok. Mrs. Krieger: So at this point in time, you're asking for a final drawing? Mr. Heilmeier: If I understand right, we're going to give you a maximum height and width and if you conform to that, you bring it to the City, they'll prove it and you can move forward. If you change anything other than that, it has come back to us. Mrs. Raber: With the general design being that except flipped with the Seven Grains on top or choose to keep it on the bottom. You have a basic visual and then the fine detail would have to be vetted through the Zoning Department. Not to exceed the maximum set by the Planning and Zoning Commission. Would that be acceptable to you? Mrs. Krieger: Yes, yes we can do. Mrs. Hussing: So according to the drawings, it would be 8 feet wide and 12 feet high. Is that what we're saying? Mr. Haddad: Technically you get 8-foot 3, wide which is the overall width of the electronic sign. The 8 foot is the active area of the electronic sign. Mrs. Hussing: Ok, and then you decide whether or not that 7 grains natural market section goes on top or below the EMC. Mrs. Raber: But to keep the proportionality similar as what that exhibit would be. Mayor Kline: Do you have an idea of the depth? Mr. Haddad: Maximum would be 24 inches. Mr. Taylor: And the location would be? Mrs. Raber: The location would be as presented in the last May 5th meeting, which was acceptable to us as being outside the site triangle. Mrs. Hussing: Correct, so you'd only be granting the two variances. The following motion was made by Mr. Heilmeier and seconded by Mr. Larson: I move to approve the Site Plan Review Application for Case PZ 22-02-01, applicant Albert Haddad, Ellet Sign Company and owners David M and Gina Krieger, Seven Grains Natural Market at 92 West Avenue to install a Monument Sign with Electronic Message Center based on the application and plans submitted January 20, March 29, April 28, 2022 to the Planning & Zoning Department and _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Page 14