Board of Zoning Appeals (BZA)

MEETING RESULTS - ZIONSVILLE BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS OCTOBER 9, 2018 The meeting of the Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals occurred Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 6:30 p.m. in the Zionsville Town Hall Room 105, 1100 West Oak Street, Zionsville, Indiana. The following items were scheduled for consideration: I. Continued Business Docket Number Name Address of Project Item to be considered Continued from September 11 to October 9, 2018 Meeting Continued from October 9 to November 13, 2018 Meeting due to Remonstrator Request 6925 E SR 32 2018-31-SE A. Safa Petition for Special Exception to allow for: (Estimated) 1) A division of land to create a (3) lot residential Minor Plat 2) New residential homes to be constructed in an Agricultural Zoning District (AG). Continued from September 11 to October 9, 2018 Meeting Continued from October 9 to November 13, 2018 Meeting due to Remonstrator Request 6925 E SR 32 2018-32-DSV A. Safa Petition for Development Standards Variance in order to (Estimated) provide for a new single family home on a lot which: 1) Deviates from the required 3:1 lot width to depth ratio in the Agricultural Zoning District (AG). II. New Business Docket Number Name Address of Project Item to be considered Approved with Commitments, based on Plan of Operation , Zionsville as amended – 5 in Favor, 0 Opposed 2018-34-SE 91 S Main Street Underground Petition for Special Exception to support ongoing Special Event Social Hall in the Village Business Zoning District (VBD). October 10, 2018  Approved as presented and w/exhibits as filed – 4 in Favor, 0 Opposed Petition for Development Standards variance in order to Habitat of 10650 Andrade provide for a new commercial tenant to occupy space in an 2018-38-DSV Humanity of Drive existing commercial building which will: Boone County 1) Deviate from the required number of parking spaces 2) Deviate from the required percentage of non-industrial space in the General Industrial District Zoning District (I2). Respectfully Submitted: Wayne DeLong AICP Town of Zionsville Director of Planning and Economic Development October 10, 2018 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 Pledge of Allegiance was said and attendance was taken by the Secretary. Present: Greg Morical, Larry Jones, Julia Evinger, Steve Mundy, John Wolff. Staff attending: Wayne DeLong, Darren Chadd, Attorney. A quorum is present. Morical Good evening, and welcome to the October 9, 2018 meeting of the Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals meeting to order. The first item on our agenda is the Pledge of Allegiance. All Pledge. Morical The next item on our agenda is attendance. DeLong Mr. Morical? Morical Present. DeLong Mr. Jones? Jones Present. DeLong Mr. Wolff? Wolff Present. DeLong Ms. Evinger? Evinger Present. DeLong Mr. Mundy? Mundy Present. Morical The next item on our agenda is the review and approval of the August 14, 2018 and September 11, 2018 meeting minutes, which I understand are still under review. So, the next item on our agenda is continuance requests. Are there any continuance requests tonight? Seeing none, we have continued business, and it has been requested by a remonstrator timely that Docket#2018-31-SE, and #2018-32-DSV be continued to the November 13, 2018 meeting. And, since that was timely requested, we don’t need to take official action to move that, correct? Chadd Correct. Morical Great. So, we will address those two items at the November 13 meeting. The next item is new business, and that is Docket#2018-34-SE, Zionsville Underground. If the petitioner would please approach and let us know what you’re interested in tonight. Page 1 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 Price Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the Board. For the record, my name is Matt Price. I am an attorney with Bingham, Greenebaum Doll with an address of 10 West Market Street, Indianapolis, Indiana. I am here tonight on behalf of CK Properties, LLC, which is a locally-based limited liability company that owns the Carter building. The principal of CK Properties is my father, Ken Price, who is here tonight and available to answer any questions you may have about our request. We have been in front of the Board a couple of different times. Once immediately prior to the acquisition of the Carter building, and then one time a year or two after. Things have gone pretty well. We have two tenants right now. One which is fairly obvious just by driving by, which is the Noah Grant’s restaurant, in what we call the main level. And, then above the main level is an office suite occupied by an engineering company that focuses on energy audits and things related to that industry sector. They are a consulting engineering firm. In connection with securing both of those tenants prior to acquisition, we obtained a variance related to parking. I think which has worked very well. And, then I think last year, or maybe the year before we had obtained a sign variance, which we have not erected yet, but it’s been approved and still being dealt with. So, that leaves us with kind of the lower level of the Carter building, which for some of you, you may recall that back when Mr. Carter owned the building, it was used in connection with kind of a very interesting conglomeration of uses that he had, a toy museum, an antique store, his own personal kind of office and condominium living space. He also maintained on the lower level, we don’t call it the basement. We call it the lower level. But, it is, in fact, a basement. Meaning that it has no natural light. That is what he used for an arcade and for entertainment. And, it also included a really novel feature, which was a bumper car area where, it was fairly confined, but for smaller kids, you could get in bumper cars and travel around and bump into each other. What we are seeking to do is to repurpose, if you will, the lower level, as maybe as not too much of a surprise. We have not found a great deal of success finding a tenant for that space for an office use or really any other use where individuals might work on a day to day basis and like to have some natural light. And, that didn’t really come as a surprise to us. We knew going in that we would probably be looking at some type of an entertainment option for the lower level. And, so what we have arrived at is a use that under the Zionsville zoning ordinance is called a social hall, or a special events center type use, and we intend to, like I indicated, repurpose that space. It’s approximately 2800 square feet. The area where the bumper cars used to be, we are putting kind of a raised stage area, if you will, so that a presenter, or persons of honor at a particular event could be at a higher location so they were visible to those that were assembled. We think we are going to focus primarily, although it is a bit of an experiment from a business standpoint, but focus primarily on corporate events and corporate training-type seminar events. My dad and I each have some experience hosting some events in Zionsville at existing locations in the Main Street area, which are somewhat limited as far as the amount of space and some of the amenities that they offer, but it has shown us that it is an attractive centralized location in an area where we think there will be an appetite for that type of gathering location. And, we also envisioned other types of uses, other types of events. Whether it is birthday parties, retirement parties, anniversary parties, maybe a small wedding or wedding reception. That type of thing. As well as a public events, could be campaign events, poetry readings, continuing education-type offerings. Just Page 2 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 depending on who the sponsor was for a particular event. We, as I mentioned, have a lease with Noah Grant’s. We were forward-thinking enough when we were working through that lease with Sherry, the owner of Noah Grant’s, to advise her that it was our intention to do something like that in the future potentially, and she, I think wisely negotiated a right of first refusal to provide food service to that area. So, we don’t intend to have any food preparation within the space, but Noah Grant’s would have a right of first refusal to provide any catering to the gathered folks. And, then to the extent she doesn’t exercise that right of first refusal, then we would open it up to other providers, and our intention would be to use those in the vicinity. Cobblestone, and Rush on Main and others that have catering operations and just make it available so that the consumer could decide kind of who best to go to. But, we want to keep it Zionsville focused to the extent we can. It would be by reservation only, so you would have to call, reserve the space in advance. We have made some associations with a person who has professional experience and expertise in managing a facility like this, so it’s not something we are going to try to do by ourselves entirely, although some family members may be employed there. We are going to seek the guidance and input and collaboration with an experienced operator with regard to day-to-day operations. As far as the frequency of events, that is going to be largely driven by demand. Kind of in our own imperfect analysis of the market, we have been told that if this were reserved for up to 2 events per month with around 50 or so guests per event, that that would probably be a pretty high level of success, and so that’s kind of what we’re eyeing. Could be more than that. Could be less than that, but that’s what we have been advised. We might be likely to experience once the offering was made available. With regard to the special exception itself, let me just mention a few things. The basement itself, because it was occupied and used for parties, essentially, by Mr. Carter, kind of sets up well for that now. It has fairly high ceilings. Didn’t require a great deal of remodeling, and so there is not going to be a lot of change to the internal workings of that lower level. And, it is equipped with restroom facilities. It also has access to additional restroom facilities on the main floor, including ADA compliant facilities, which in the Village, particularly with some of the older structures is not a common thing to have if you’ve frequented any of the facilities that rest on Main or other places. They are not as up to date perhaps as what our building offers. And, so we think it sets up nicely for the type of use that we are proposing. One other thing I will mention because it will be a topic of interest, I suspect, is parking. That was an initial variance request that we had, and we were given a parking variance. So we did not seek to obtain an additional variance beyond that, and we went a different route with regard to satisfying the parking requirements for the building. And so what we have done is we have acquired the office building immediately east of the Carter building, which comes with three, what we are referring to in our vernacular, is surplus parking. Meaning it has more parking that what is required by the ordinance for its day-to- day use. So, we have those three spots. And we have also secured with regard to our off-street parking compliance, an additional 23 parking spaces immediately behind 45 South Elm, which is the salon right on Elm Street owned by Bob Harris and his family, which has substantial amount of surplus parking for a couple of different reasons, which may or may not be immediately apparent. But, one is for maneuverability. He has added an area behind his building just because it kind of facilitates making the not real easy turn out from behind the 45 South Page 3 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 Elm property, and also because I think just because like a few surface area parking facilities around town become, it has the nature of almost a public asset at times during the fourth of July, the fall festival. During the day-to-day activities at the Lions Club, it becomes almost semi-private, semi-public thing to look at parking for coaches at the baseball league, people that want to go to the 4th of July, or attend the fall festival. And, so, I think just out of necessity he has kind of made that parking available, but agreed to sign an exclusive lease with us with regard to helping us meet our off-street parking requirement. My dad and I didn’t think that was really enough from a practical standpoint. We live here. Some combination of my dad and I own five properties in downtown Zionsville. Three on Main Street. And, we have no desire to give a person invited to a retirement party or to a corporate gathering a difficult time finding a parking space. We think that if you did something like that, and it was a bad consumer or customer experience, that would probably be on Yelp pretty quickly, or on one of the websites. And whatever good intentions you may have had with regard to your business would probably go by the wayside fairly quickly. And, so what we have endeavored to do is to offer and commit in our plan of operation to a valet parking program that would be overseen by an off-duty police or fireman, and provide and commit to providing valet parking for any event where there were 50 or more guests. And, we have secured additional parking spaces that would be available for valet parking over and above the required off-street parking. And, to give you an idea where those are located, we’ve got a lease at South Village on the east side of the street where Mr. Harris maintains businesses there that have substantial additional parking. So, it’s basically if you’re thinking about it, it would be across the street from Bub’s in that parking lot. And, then another kind of underutilized asset that has historical reasons why it has so much parking in relation to its actual use, is the Mid-States Insurance building on Oak Street. We have been able to secure a lease agreement with Mid-States as well. Before there was the old Town Hall, on Cedar Street, there was the old Town Hall on Oak Street, and the Mid-States Insurance building is now used for pure office use, and it has a substantial additional parking. Really very conveniently located, especially for a valet parking arrangement in relation to our proposed reception hall. And, so our intention is to not nearly comply, but to exceed those minimums and provide hopefully a very easy and convenient experience to guests. We believe we can implement mechanisms so that an invitee would be required to use the valet parking in order to be admitted to an event. Not uncommon in downtown Indianapolis for areas where there are some practical concerns on parking. Another experiment I have seen recently is the valet parking at Keystone. There are restaurants that use valet parking there now, and certainly around the holidays. They employ it and it seems to really ease things and really add to the customer experience and really encourage people to attend an event so they do not have to worry about that aspect of searching and finding a parking space, or finding one and just not liking the walk. You know, sometimes it’s just about convenience. So, that’s kind of an overview. We do intend to make the plan of operation our commitment to the Board, and we would certainly volunteer that that be part of tonight’s proceedings should you choose to approve it, and Ken and I would be available to answer any questions that you have and we respectfully request your approval tonight. Page 4 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 Morical Thank you, Mr. Price. So, just for clarity, in the plan of operations, the 62 additional spaces. Those are the valet-related, further spaces, and then the 25 or 26 are the ones that would be closer to the facility? Price Correct. Under by rule, there is a requirement for off-street parking. And, the off- street parking to qualify for compliance purposes need to be within 300 feet of the use that is seeking to use the off-site, but nevertheless, the off-street parking. And, then that’s the 26. Then there is the additional parking spaces that are available for valet, but those are over and above. Not required by the ordinance, but we thought a good idea and practically a needed amenity, if you will. Morical Okay. So, it’s 26 off-street within 300 feet, and then 26 other additional ones. Or 62 additional ones? Price 62. Morical Okay. Got it. Any other questions for the petitioner? Evinger What is the capacity, or what are you forecasting for the capacity? Price So, we have, let me put it this way, we feel it’s a little bit of a long answer. I don’t have an exact number yet. We are working with the fire department to establish what that number is. We think that comfortably it will likely not exceed 100 to 150 people, but we are kind of waiting on the final number. What we based our parking compliance on was kind of the, from our perspective, a worst case scenario. That if 170 people were required, then we would have to have 21 off-street parking spaces by rule. We do not see ever having 170 people down there, regardless of what the fire department tells us is okay from a fire standpoint. Just because from a being comfortable standpoint, that is not going to be very comfortable. And, we anticipate events more like in the 50 to 60-type range. So, we are waiting on that number. Morical Any other questions for the petitioner? Thank you, Mr. Price. Are there any remonstrators here tonight? Okay. Please approach the podium and state your name and address for the record. Kogan My name is Drew Kogan. 195 South Main Street in Zionsville. Great use for this property, I think. But parking is a concern. You know, 50 that will do valet. That’s okay, 49, 25 cars that’s couples. Parking is a concern. Mr. Price, the office employees upstairs park on Main Street in front of my store on Oak Street all day long. Eight o’clock in the morning until five at night. Sherry’s staff comes in at 2:30 to 3 o’clock, parks all around Oak Street, Pine Street and in front of my store all night long. So, you know, parking for that building is a problem. I would be curious to know what variance Mr. Carter got when he applied for that building as a museum, and then, you know, as Mr. Price got another variance for Noah Grant’s. If there is an event during the day for 30 people, if they come in twos, that’s 15 cars. If you have been down on Main Street during the day, it’s a problem. So, maybe, you know - - Morical --Mr. Kogan, which store is yours? Page 5 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 Kogan Main and Pine. It’s the oldest store on Main Street. Next door to the bed and breakfast. Morical Okay. Right. Kogan The dark brown building. Morical Right. Okay. Kogan Between, and this has nothing to do with the Prices, but I mean, I wish you guys would come down and sit someday. The pie shop fills up. Lemon Bar fills up Pine Street, from in the morning, all day long, until 3 o’clock shift, they leave, and then another shift comes in. And, I’m a store owner. I’m there all the time. The biggest complaint I have is parking. I lose business because, and it’s employee parking. But, I mean, you know, 50 people, and then we will have a valet. Let’s do 20 and have a valet. And, that’s 20 cars. And, we don’t have that many spots. And, so the parking is a concern. I think the event hall is a great idea. I think running down to Bub’s for valet is a little crazy. And what happens if there is an event and it’s 4th of July and the beauty shop parking lot is filled up? Morical What are the hours for your store? Kogan 9 to 5. Morical So, evening wouldn’t really be a problem. If he had an evening event, it really wouldn’t be a problem? Cogen It would help. Would it help parking there? Morical Right. Well, if we could get him to commit to have the workers definitely park off Main Street and maybe even try to work with Noah Grant’s to have their staff park off Main Street. Kogan And, the office. I mean, the office, I mean, I walk my dog at 8 o’clock, 7 o’clock in the morning. They’re nice, I mean, this is nothing bad against anybody. Morical Right. I hear you. Kogan I mean, parking is such a problem. Morical Okay. Kogan And, what if they have an event during the day? I mean, people have retirement parties during the day. Morical Right. Kogan I mean, there is two restaurants in town that require their employees to park away. Not in the Town parking lot. I mean, away. I have talked to somebody that works in the office upstairs in this building. I said, “Could you park somewhere Page 6 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 else?” He goes, “I can park wherever I want. It’s legal.” It is. But, you know, they don’t park in front of their own building. And, the more offices we get, the more restaurants, the less parking. I mean, how many spaces was this building supposed to have when Mr. Carter built it as a museum? Because he got a variance. I was at that meeting. Morical I don’t know. Wayne, do you recall? DeLong Yes. I don’t recall that off-hand. I’ll see if we have it in the file here. Because we may have mentioned it in the previous variance from 2 years ago. Kogan You know, I mean how many variances can we have? And, so, like during the day, the beauty shop is going to be part, across from Bub’s, it’s going to be filled up with customers. There is stores there and offices. ?? There is 101 parking spots there. Kogan Do you think people really walk from Bub’s to - - ?? --inaudible - - Morical Yes. We can’t pick you up if you are not on the microphone. Okay. So, Mr. Kogan. That’s very helpful. Let’s talk to the petitioner about, it’s a legitimate concern. Kogan I’m just, it’s a concern. Morical Legitimate concern. Any other thoughts? Otherwise, you’re okay with the use, it sounds like. It’s just the parking. Kogan It’s just the parking is a concern. And it’s, you know, and signage. Signage is a problem all up and down Main Street. Morical What’s your signage concern? Kogan No theirs. It’s all signage. Morical Okay. Kogan It’s a lack of. Some get pulled, some don’t. So. Morical Okay. Thank you. Kogan Thank you. Morical Any other remonstrators here tonight? Glass My name is Karen Glass, and I own Serenity, which is right in the apex of the tornado. We do a lot of events, and we do a lot of events during the day. And, a lot of the retirement parties and the baby showers and the things that they are thinking about doing probably would happen during the day. And, I have no Page 7 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 problems about having, I think it’s a great use of the space. I started with Nancy Wells. We could not do wedding or anything without valet parking, because that was part of the deal. It hindered business dramatically, and I must admit, and sometimes Nancy snuck in a few without having the valet parking. My problem is now I have semis behind me all the time delivering to Salty Cowboy, I mean, really if you look at how many hours are there from 10 to 12, I have 4 or 5 different semis unloading both for Noah Grant’s and Salty Cowboy. That hinders coming into my parking lot, which Bob Carter did own that building, and he was going to tear it down and make it a parking lot before we salvaged it, which would have been ugly, and instead, we tore down the garage that was behind. We had enough parking spaces. That was 10 years ago. To my knowledge, there has not been any adjustments to all these restaurants coming in with any tearing down of business and making more parking. Now, the dentist did mow down some trees a couple weeks ago, but other than that, parking is a dramatic issue. During the day, for baby showers, bridal showers, it’s a problem. We do mystery dinners. We do events. We do events all the time. I mean, I am the event queen. And, parking is difficult. When I go out, and I let Salty Cowboy use my lot at night when I’m not open, but like I just drove up here, it’s filled. I don’t have signs that say, hey, get the heck out or I’m going to tow you or whatever. Sherry has never said thank you. She has never been nice at all to me. In fact, it’s been the opposite. And, I have refrained from putting up mean signs, because I felt it was for the good of the community when I’m not open. But, when I’m open, and I need those parking spaces, I can’t use them. Because I go out there and say hey, this is Serenity’s parking lot. Well, it doesn’t have a sign. And, people get ugly, really badly. So, you know, I’m all for their event space. They will do more than two events a month. I am sold out until Christmas. So, that kind of gives you the usage, but we run amazing fun events. But, I can tell you right now, as soon as the parking overflows, it’s going to dramatically because there are people in those office buildings that park right on Main Street every morning, right in front of Black Dog Books, at three cars. I even said to one of the guys, hey, park in front of my dumpster because they dump it early. I’ll let you park there even though it’s my handicap parking for my older ladies coming in. It’s the same three cars. So, for an event, they have to be committed. And, I have called twice on those semis, and I get it, but can’t they deliver before we all open for business? You know, I called you and talked about that. So, there going to get more event space, more drop off, more liquor, more all of that. It is a hazard, because no one can get down the alley, and you can’t park. And, with all their employees, and everything else. I am all for the space. The Prices do a great job, but it is really, this is almost the bubble burst. I am just saying that it better be enforced, because if it’s not, it will hurt all of us. The rug guy moved out because of it. We have other people that, you know, are very upset about it. I am helping the candy shop get reopened, and that parking is going to be tough. We want to keep that business. I think it’s important to Zionsville, but with Z Works and Lemon Bar and all these other people taking over, do you want to try to park 10 blocks away to get, you know, a bag of candy? Gotta think about it. Morical Yes. Thank you, Mrs. Glass. We appreciate that. Maybe we need scooters. Mr. Price, will you address that? Oh, Wayne doesn’t want scooters. Sorry. Price I have seen how that’s working downtown, and it depends on the day. Well, there is a lot there obviously. Let me mention one thing, just as an offer that to the Page 8 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 extent that any of our tenants, employees at Genesis Engineering are parking on Main Street, I will certainly commit, although it’s not a legally binding commitment, we can certainly commit to asking them not to do that. I will say that on the Village parking ecosystem, the Carter building has more off-street parking under its control than I believe any other business on Main Street, including the 12 dedicated off-street parking spaces that it had and maintains today in connection with the original variance for the building generally. We didn’t know exactly the uses at that time, but it’s worked out very well. And, as far as the nature of this land use, and I think why it meets the criteria for a special exception and really doesn’t pose a lot of the difficulties that were just described is that the caterings, the business will cater. It doesn’t have its own employees. So, it would be catering from an adjoining business, presumably already has those employees there in order to provide the catering service. So, we’re not adding employees or deliveries the way a restaurant does. So, it’s a low intensity use in that regard. And, then with regard to the special exception we are not here tonight asking for a parking variance. We do have the required parking. We have acquired that parking both through acquisition and fee, and by acquisition by lease. And, the difficulty in the Village is not, I think we maybe could agree on a couple of points, is the difficulty in the Village is, is that there have been businesses, new businesses opened who have done neither. They have neither acquired additional area for parking in fee, nor have they acquired it by lease. So they are just taking whatever on-street, really no off-street parking. They are taking whatever on-street parking they can find, and utilizing that. And, so, in some ways, the Village I think is experiencing kind of the effects of having a very vibrant economy. But, I don’t think we can visit all of the parking difficulties that the real or perceived that the Village has had over the last 10-20 years on the Carter building. The Carter building has been proactive. Has made a real investment and has developed a way to establish compliance in a way that is consistent with what other land uses in the area that have gone to the effort of establishing compliance have done. And, so we’re not seeking a parking variance. We are just seeking a special exception. And we are not going to unduly burden any adjoining property owner. And, in fact, I will say this. I will go ahead and put this on the record, because it’s been a discussion I’ve had, which is that we have been approached by the Mayor at times with regard to the building immediately east of us for a potential acquisition of that property to turn that into a public parking lot to help alieve the greater public parking issues in the Village, and we have been very committed to saying to the Mayor that, you know, we’re happy to entertain any proposal that the Town would like to present to us at some time in the future. But, that’s not related to the Carter building, and its operation, that’s related to more global issues that may or may not be affecting the Village from time to time. Morical Mr. Price. I hear one of the concerns the remonstrators are saying is you may have acquired the rights to this additional off-street parking, but how are you going to cause people to actually use that versus using what may be more convenient to them parking, but then inconveniences their customers? Price One of the ways we think to do that, and that’s why we are fond of the valet approach, which is that we think that one way of controlling that is by making an attendee present a voucher from the valet in order to enter the event. And to say that at the outset. You have to use valet, or you’re not entitled to enter the event. Page 9 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 And, to make that for larger events, which we have kind of self-determined at 50 folks or more, and that was done, you know, I can’t say that was particularly scientific. If that’s a lower number in order to get everybody comfortable, we can certainly talk about that. But our intention was to have a very regulated process so that we can conveniently get people to and from events. Like is done in other like urban settings where there is a thriving local economy. Glass Where are they getting dropped off for the valet, because make sure there is already a traffic hazard. They are dropping off in front of Noah Grant’s for valet, have you thought about - - Morical - - Hold on one second. Mrs. Glass, we record everything and so it’s difficult if you don’t have a microphone, and we don’t typically hand one out to the audience. I understand your concern is, for the record, where there would be valet drop-off and pick-up. This is the elder Mr. Price. K. Price Yes. Much elder and wiser. The back of the property, that alley, even when people park in the spaces against the building, there is still room to pull out of the alley for a valet-type thing where somebody hops in the car and somebody else gets out and goes into the building. The access to the underground space is probably better from the alley than it is from Main Street. So, people would be induced to do that anyway. And, I just want to say, we have had events with 150 people there before we had anybody move in, and we actually used your facility as a caterer. So, not yours. Hers. Morical That’s great. I hope you had a terrific experience. K. Price We had a terrific time too. Great sandwiches. But we have thought of that. We can place this stop-off. And, by the way, within 300 feet, I don’t think most of the people coming to a smaller event would like having to walk up the hill, but probably most people are also not aware of the parking that’s available down the hill on Elm Street. So, you’ve got two things going there. If it’s a training session for young employees, tell them they’ve got to park at Elm Street down the hill. I don’t think it’s going to be an issue for a daytime event. If it’s a retirement party, probably going to have a lot more older people who aren’t going to like that, so we have to be responsive to the customers or we won’t have a business. That’s the best protection you have. Morical So, you could add to your commitments that each time you’d host an event, you’d specifically tell them where to park, if you did not have valet available, and if you had valet available you would tell them, look, you really need to use valet, and help educate them about parking is constrained in Zionsville and it’s important to us to respect our neighbors. Price Correct. And, what assets are available. I think to Ken’s point, and to your point, part of that educational process is going to be making sure that they know where they can park. All of you may have done this. I used to coach Little League, and because I know Bob and knew that parking lot was there, I used to feel somewhat allowed to go back there and park, along with a few hundred of my closest friends and neighbors at the Lions Club. But, not everybody attending an event Page 10 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 downtown may know that. And, so if they did, and that parking is reserved for them, that could be a really good asset to alleviate things. Morical Thank you, Mr. Price. Any other questions for the petitioner? Wolff Just sort of generally, was there a concern about, was there a greater concern about parking during the day, and if there was, then should there be a variable number on this valet service? Meaning that if the event is during 9 to 5 type hours. Price I see what you’re saying. Wolff The valet requirement would go from 50 to 30, or I don’t know what those appropriate numbers are, but I think I heard that there was a concern for the daytime operations. Price That’s a good thought. I had not thought of that myself. I think we would be agreeable to that approach. 25? Yes. And, so, what Ken was saying is, even we could reduce it down to 25 during business hours. Nine to five hours. Evinger I have a question. Because, I have a feeling that the valet will become very popular, and you’ll have people who want to use it that are frequenting other establishments. Price We had the same thought. Evinger So, are you going to have a provision to be able to allow somebody else to use that service during one of your events? Price You know. We have had that same thought because that is, for example in Westfield they are using, I think, a Town sponsored valet program there. It’s potentially expandable, but our lease agreements as currently drafted do not, would not permit it to be used for that use. I think in fairness to the land owners. But, it’s possible that with their permission it could be expanded. And, it certainly is something that if it became popular, and if it became helpful, you know, that’s something we could certainly look at. K. Price One of the early signees said I want this to be exclusive because I do not want to be badgered by other people who would want to use it, and I talked about well, gee, once we have it set up, maybe even you would want to use it. He said, perhaps. So, I think we probably can convince them that, as long as we were providing the insurance and the, you know, it was done through us, I think they would probably say that’s fine. So, yes, we have thought about that. And, we’re not oblivious to the semi problem either. It’s a real issue. I think the alleys need to be improved in that general area, because they are like 25 mile an hour thoroughfares now. You have to be careful stepping out of your building or you’ll get run over. Morical Any further questions for the petitioner? Page 11 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 Mundy One question. The spaces immediately to the east of the Carter building, the parking spaces, who uses those now during the day? Price There are, Dave Rausch has got his architecture business there. So, his required parking is two, and that’s what he uses for his parking, and I think he has got an employee there as well. Mundy So, the balance of those are - - Price --They’re open. Mundy They’re open? Price Yes. Mundy I mean, would it, I’m just looking at the possibility of the engineering firm parking. Could that be offered to them so that it takes them off of the street, which would help alleviate Mr. Kogan’s concern, Mrs. Glass’s concern if they were told there is 10 spaces back there, and they’re available to the engineering people. Price We could definitely look at that. Absolutely. K.Price I mean, I’m there virtually every day, and my experience is not the same as Mr. Kogan’s. I suspect that the people parking on Main Street are more likely coming from the architectural firm and not the engineering firm, because most of them, or at least substantial numbers of them park in the Carter building parking spaces during the daytime because that doesn’t conflict with Noah Grant’s, because they don’t open until 4 o’clock. So, there is really only like an hour overlap in their time. So, they use a lot of the parking spots that are behind the Black Dog bookstore and-- Glass They are always filled by the same people. Morical I think it would be helpful, to the extent we can, to get regular people who park there all the time as employees to park off Main Street. So, it would be great to have that discussion. Okay. Any other questions for the petitioner? Jones Just real quick. Morical I know. Drainage? Jones You know, the great thing about being on this Committee and this Commission is that I know I say the things I can’t say in a public meeting, which, as a developer, my number one goal is to create a parking problem, because if I’ve created a parking problem, that means I have a customer problem. This will mean I have too many people going to my properties to do too much thing, most of which is spend money. So, my real thought is, is that this sounds like more of a Village Association and a Town Council thing, that maybe it’s time to put some sort of 2- hour limitation on parking on some of the main streets and have the Village Page 12 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 Association put together and come forward with a better plan that treats everyone equally and kind of addresses this. Because to try to spot address it as different petitioners come before us, creates just that. At a certain point, nobody knows what rules exist, and I think, you know, the good news, this problem exists. There are too many people coming to downtown Zionsville to do too much stuff, and I think our issue is to make sure we don’t overload with bars or something else. Don’t turn into a Broad Ripple, but if we can keep this mix of businesses and restaurants and, you know, different firms doing things, generally that’s a huge positive that I think every small town would love to have. So, now it’s the time for the business owners of the small town to get together and come up with their solution. Morical That’s your platform, Larry? Jones And, drainage. Keep up the drainage. Morical Right. Mr. Kogan. Do you have anything else you’d like to add? Kogan As far as Black Dog Books, Tonya couldn’t be here tonight. Her spaces are not open in the evening. People park there in the evening. They have stolen, I think she told me 24 orange cones that she puts out every night. And takes them. Takes her signs. And, you know, Mr. Jones, I think you’re right. Parking would be, but it’s employees, and you know, if they’re having a catering job downstairs, the restaurants are still open. So, they are going to have twice as many employees. So, you know, it’s getting the problem of the employees parking. Jones Correct. And, that’s my comment about, you know, you start doing 2-hour limits on the public streets and enforce it a little bit. Kogan We had that for years before you moved to town. It was there. You’ve got to talk to the police department because they are the ones that had to take care of it. Jones It’s a concerted effort on the effective group to come together and request and push to get it done. That was kind of the point of what I was trying to say. Kogan And, who is going to maintain this? They are doing a great job. This is nothing against the Prices. This valet thing. People aren’t going to want to pay for the valet or tip the valet, so they are going to park, okay, somewhere else. Who is going to maintain where those people park? I went to the Planning Commission office last week, and they said they are reactive and not proactive. I mean, that’s their job. Who is going - - Jones --Correct. Once again, as a developer, I maintain a lot of parking lots of my own, and I do that because it benefits my tenants and my customers and the people that pay me rent. That’s why I’m saying it’s a collective issue for all the business owners and property owners of the downtown to come together with a better plan to both regulate street parking to get some sort of turnover. Kogan So, it’s not the Town’s job to do this, it’s ours? Jones Correct. That’s my point. Page 13 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 Kogan That’s your point. It was 2-hour parking for years. It didn’t work. So, I mean - - Morical --The challenge we have is we’re are dealing with this particular variance request. We have to judge it on its merits. Kogan But during the day, the beauty parlor is not going to let them, beauty shop, whatever, is not going to let them park there. Morical Right. And, we’ve got to, Mrs. Glass, hold on. There is the microphone. Glass Just to let you know, I didn’t join the Chamber this year. First time in 10 years, because for the last 3 years they say that they have been working on a parking plan, which is top secret and they cannot release it. The business, there is no longer a Zionsville Merchant’s Association. That businesses getting together as a collective whole would be difficult because we really don’t have an outlet. The Chamber is doing nothing. So, if, Larry, I appreciate what you’re saying here. There needs to be someone has to step up with some type of plan. There has been one that says, oh, let’s plan them for Mrs. Bender. I mean, we have heard all kinds of things. It just doesn’t go anywhere, and I guess I could go door to door. We have had a petition as of 2 months ago that was sent, I don’t know where it went. But, there is no organizing group to do it. And, the Chamber is not helping us. It’s not their job, they say, too, or to reveal to us what it would be. Morical Okay. Thank you, Mrs. Glass. Any further questions for the petitioner? Okay. May we have the staff report please? DeLong Thank you. As indicated, the petition that’s in front of you this evening is a special exception request related to the consideration of the operation of a events center/social hall within the Village business district that the staff report outlines the criteria that’s contained within your zoning ordinance related to the evaluation of the request that’s in front of you given that you’re working with an existing building. Many of the questions related to topography and other driveway locations and things of that nature, building character. All those particular criteria are currently established. Certainly, the concentration of tonight’s conversation regarding the parking is as well something that’s required to be discussed, but the petitioner has brought forth a plan related to the compliance of that with at least your zoning ordinance. Certainly, you know, parking as you discussed this evening is a larger conversation. The Town studied that, specifically in 2013 and 2014. Certainly it’s always a growing topic. Certainly, I don’t know the schedule as to when to conduct another study and make those recommendations. I know the previous recommendations included an establishment of additional public parking facilities. I am aware of those conversations. I am aware of, you know, the Chamber’s efforts to try to identify additional opportunities. I do know that they have had conversations about valet service, however, they could not identify a property that would provide the opportunity to the community. So, I do think that was one of the selling blocks that the Chamber did run into with that exercise. Specifically to the petition, staff is supportive of the filing requesting the special exception. Again, primarily focused on the characteristics of the site and how they are currently established, the business plan, the plan of operation that’s contained within the file, and the Page 14 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 effort to comply with the Town’s zoning ordinance specific to parking, and certainly the efforts that are contained again within that public document, the plan of operation. Again, staff is supportive of the petition and would be happy to answer any questions. Morical Thank you, Wayne. Any questions for staff? Mundy Wayne, I know you have peers that are in communities that may have similar problems. Any solutions that they have found that you can suggest, and going back also to the 2013, 2014 parking study that was done, it was my impression that the re-development commission was going to follow up with some attempt to lease space, which was unused during peak times, like evenings when restaurants were full and offices were empty. That’s never happened? DeLong It’s not that it’s never happened. There has never been any success in identifying parties that desire to enter into a contractual agreement to facilitate that. I believe some of that was even referenced this evening, specific to the name of some of those parties that may have been contacted. There are conversations regarding additional public parking facilities, as Mr. Price mentioned, and you know, certainly if Redevelopment Commission could be involved in that type of project. Parking lots are not inexpensive to design, construct and operate, but yes, the recommendations of the 2013, 2014 study, they do need a willing party to assist in moving that forward, which is somebody beyond the government. Mundy And, the first part of my question, which was any of your peers in other communities, are there things that might work here? And, I think listening to Larry, I think that makes a lot of sense that which effectively says probably in the Town in some way has got to help with solving the problem. So, have other towns solved it? DeLong It is something that other towns work with and certainly the valet component is a major component. The commercialization of parking is another feature that does come into play. We do not have any commercialized parking lots at this time, let alone a commercial parking structure. That could be, not saying a parking structure, but certainly, you know, looking for something to monetize and incentivize, you know, off-street parking on a surface lot, that might be the next to entire additional sharing. But I would suspect, you know, with other jurisdictions, there has been shared parking agreements where the municipality will provide the snow plowing and the paving, maintenance, upkeep, things of that nature. Some insurance to entice a private parking lot to be made available. But again, those are the success stories that I have seen done, but they do require a party, a third party to be interested in engaging in that thought process. Mundy Thank you. Morical Any further questions for staff? Mr. Price, can we talk to you for just another moment? Would you be amenable to work with Wayne to revise the plan of operation to address the additional items discussed tonight, which would include for the employees that work in the building, telling them about the additional, off-street parking that you have available and communicating and encouraging them to use that parking instead of parking on the street? Page 15 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 Price Yes. Morical And, then also adding the change for events in the underground space between 9 to 5 that the valet threshold would be 25 people or greater? Price Yes. Morical Are there any other changes you guys would like to have made to the plan of operation? Price I think maybe you mentioned one other one, which at least I had in my notes, which was that we would specify where parking was to be. Morical Right. Price But with every reservation. Morical That would be helpful. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions or comments from the Board. If none, I would entertain a motion. Mundy I move that Docket#2018-34-SE, petition for special exception to support an ongoing special events social hall in the Village business zoning district subject to the submitted plan of operation be approved as described this evening. Morical Thank you. Is there a second? Evinger Second. Morical All those in favor, please say aye. All Aye. Morical Any opposed? [No response] Morical Motion carries. Thank you very much Mr. Price and Mr. Price. The next item on our agenda was withdrawn by the petitioner. That’s Docket#2018-35-DSV. The next item is Docket#2018-38-DSV, Habitat of Humanity of Boone County. And, I am going to step down because I own a piece of property that is really close to this. So, I am recusing myself and Larry, you are in charge. Wolff Congratulations on your promotion. Jones Of all the times I didn’t step backwards when I should have, like the rest of you. All right. Let’s see. We don’t have to swear him in. So, we are going to hear from Docket#2018-38-DSV. Address is 10650 Andrade Drive. Habitat for Humanity. Please present. Page 16 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 Qua Thank you for hearing our variance request to start a restore in Zionsville. I am Liz Qua. I am executive director of Habitat for Humanity in Boone County. Habitat for Humanity in Boone County has been building homes in Boone County since 1984. We have helped almost 200 adults and children who were otherwise housing insecure with stability and self-reliance through home ownership. We have built 59 homes to date. We are building our 59th home as we speak here, with the partnership of corporate sponsors, donors and about 1000 volunteers a year on our build sites. Our homeowners pay back a 0% interest, 25- year mortgage. Best deal in town, and have to earn $200 of sweat equity before we can close on their house. They are required also to take a finance class taught by our Board president, Kevin Schmidt, and also a class through the Caring Center called Getting Ahead in a Just Getting By World. And, so this program is truly a hand up, not a handout. We also are governed by a Board of Directors, many of whom live here in Zionsville. So, we would like to start a restore in Zionsville to provide additional funding stream for our home building program. A restore is a resale shop for donated building supplies and home goods. Similar to a Goodwill store. Our model is similar to theirs in that it is suggested to locate the store close or easily accessible to its donors. Where we differ is in the size of the items we will sell. So, our store will be filled with very large items like sofas, chairs, cabinets, doors, lighting, appliances. Items of that nature. We will not sell smaller items, such as clothing, shoes, jewelry, books, music, that kind of thing. We have been through many trainings, meetings and visited restores around the country to get a feel on what are the inner workings of these stores. In all of the stores we observed, the foot traffic is minimal. There is an amazing network and guidance of restores in the U.S. There are currently 905 restores in the U.S. and 135 globally, and all these provide a funding stream to their building programs. So, we don’t have to create the wheel, we just have to follow it, which makes it nice for us. Our Board has been talking about and investigating a restore in our county for several years. We did a feasibility study in 2015, and we have been setting aside money to start the restore as seed money. When we started the location search earlier this year, we hoped and prayed we would find a landlord that understood our cause, and what we are trying to do, and would partner with us on this venture. We found this in the property at 10650 Andrade Drive, owned by George Derringer, who has become an amazing partner and volunteer of ours. This building meets all the requirements the fits full restore. It has the location of our dreams being close to the Michigan and 106th Street retail corridor, but still in Boone County. The space has adequate parking and is large enough to grow into over the years. The use of the building will be similar to the use in the past, and should generate no side effects, adverse effects for the surrounding neighbors. We sent out two notification letters to property owners in the 2-block radius around the property, and we received a welcome to the neighborhood from Dart Controls, which we really appreciated. In order to keep our store stocked and fully furnished, we will use a box truck to pick up items throughout the county from the donors. This will help control the number of donations being accepted at the store, and also provide a convenience to the residents of Boone County. The size of the items being donated and sold is really dictating the amount of retail space that we need. Due to the size and nature of our products, we feel there is not a direct correlation between the amount of retail space and the amount of customers or foot traffic expected on a given day. So, we hope you will consider approving this variance to expand the amount of available retail space in this Page 17 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 building and reduce parking in order for us to move forward with our restore. We are very excited about this opportunity to continue our mission of changing lives in Boone County. Thank you for your consideration. Jones Thank you very much. Is there anyone from the audience that would like to speak in support or against this project? Hearing none, can we hear from Wayne. DeLong Certainly. As the staff report indicates, the land use itself, the operation of building materials warehouse is a permissible use. You could manufacture, or assemble, door jams and other types of products that would certainly be available to be distributed from this exact facility. The zoning itself, the I2 district, was updated a few years ago to allow some level of retail to occur within that foot plate. The idea being if you make a widget, you should be able to at least sell the widget, or taste the widget, or drink the widget, or whatever particular product you’re making. If it’s beans or beverages. Other permissible land uses. And, this particular case, the request that’s in front of you is a touch different. But, certainly represents an occupancy that is permitted by right is the retail aspect that is what’s in front of you this evening, and given the description this evening and the other items to be discussed here, the retail side of this operation is one that varies, is flexible, but is not traditional, and certainly staff recognized that, and basically evaluates the impact of the retail aspects as being very similar to as if this was a concentrated tasting room or other feature of a permissible land use. Again, staff is supportive of the petition as it’s assembled in front of you this evening. We also talk about parking. The site does have, it’s an integrated center, if you will, with two different buildings. But, again, the parking that we see as available and certainly on the site plan is adequate to provide for the operation at it’s proposed, in staff’s opinion. Again, staff is supportive of the petition as filed, and I’d be happy to answer any questions. Jones And, is there any questions from any of the Commissioners? Wolff I have one for Ms., is it Qua? Qua Yes. Wolff Okay. I guess I have two. One is you mentioned there were 905 other types, are there other ones in the Indianapolis area, greater Indianapolis area? Qua Yes. There are three within what they say greater Indy, which is multiple counties. Wolff Sure. Qua There is also one in Hamilton County. Wolff Okay. Qua There is 26 in Indiana. Wolff Okay. So, 26 in Indiana. Do you have any idea like store hours? Page 18 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 Qua Yes. So, they’re different. Mainly daylight hours. Really not night hours is what we’re seeing. What our plan is, is usually you’ll see 3 to 4 days a week that they are open, like a Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, or Thursday, Friday, Saturday kind of thing. Not full weeks. And, then a 9 to 5 kind of thing. So, we’re planning on no evening hours at all. So, it would be nothing past 5 or 6 maybe at the latest. And, then just, like I said, 3 to 4 days a week is what we’re planing on. Yes. Wolff I guess maybe the harder, or easier question, do you know the correct way to pronounce the road it’s on? Qua Andrade? Wolff Andrade? Okay. Just making sure I’m right. Andrade. Qua George, is that right? Wolff Andrade Drive. Perfect. Got it. Jones One quick question. So are you just the 15,000-foot building, or both buildings? Qua Well, yes, just the 15,000. Just the bigger building. The smaller building is somebody else. There is extra space. There is office space in front of it. It will not be retail, but it’s part of the building. The whole building is like 17,000 square feet, and we are just looking at the 15,000 square foot warehouse section for retail. Jones Okay. So, that has another question. So, will there be a second tenant using the office portion of this? Qua Nope. It’s ours. Jones Okay. But then the front building. The building that’s closer to 106th Street, will be a separate tenancy. Qua Yes. Jones Okay. Any other questions or comments? Evinger So, just to be clear, the whole building, the whole building too is going to be leased to Habitat for Humanity? There will be no other sub-tenants or sub-leases or anything? Qua Um, George? Jones Please. We need you to introduce yourself. Derringer George Derringer, and my wife and I, Paula Derringer, own the property. There are two buildings on that corner. One is a multi-tenant facility facing 106th Street. The little businesses in there now, one is called Eagle Automotive. Another one is a mail-order train shop that sells trains. The Eagle Automotive is vacating the Page 19 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 building as of Friday. They are moving to the Progressive Insurance building, which is in the Carmel district to the south of us. When they leave, we will have a total of 4 cars on the parking lot. We have two tenants in there now, and they each have 2 cars. We have a total of 55 spaces on the property. We’re very fortunate because we have a lot more parking than anyone else. We have recently been over-run simply because Eagle Automotive received all the business from Greens and Marvin Brown’s business going out, and all of those people ran to Eagle Automotive. So, we were a little overloaded for a while there. They decided they needed a new location and we decided they needed a new location, so they looked immediately and they found a new place. So, we’re going to re-let the front building, which only has three units in it now, and then lease the building on Andrade Drive to Habitat for Humanity. Evinger In its entirety. That was my question. Derringer Yes. Evinger All right. Thank you. Jones Will Habitat for Humanity have any outdoor storage? Qua There is a small area on the side that we might have a trailer or two in the off- build season. During the build season, the trailers are on the build site. So, to answer your question, there is not really space for that, but there is space for a trailer. Jones Okay. So, there is no anticipated outdoor storage of materials? Qua No, I don’t foresee that that would be able to happen. Yes. Mundy Is the outdoor space, is that between two buildings? Qua It’s to the north. Mundy To the north of the building? Qua Yes. Yes. I don’t know who is the tenant to the north, but there is a space, and it’s fenced off and we can store a trailer or two back in there. But, that’s only obviously during the non-build season. Derringer We do have a chain-link fenced are on the north side of the building, and we used it, it’s chain-link, and it’s got lattice fronting in it. We used it to put pallets out there occasionally, but it’s pretty clean right now. There is nothing in there. Jones And, Wayne, just to fill out the conversation, so in this zoning district, when it comes to outside storage, what are the tenants allowed? DeLong Outdoor storage is permissible as long as it’s screened. The zoning district, I want to say, it’s limit, I don’t know the number off-hand, but it’s either half of the foot plate or a quarter of the foot plate, but certainly the modest area that we see on the site plan here is just that, modest. Page 20 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 Jones I am familiar with Habitat for Humanity downtown, down on 25th? Qua 22nd Street? Jones Yes. So, generally they run a lot of product. Generally I run in there every often just to find the oddball stuff I need. Qua Right. Well, now you’ll have a closer location. Jones No more discussion. Does anyone want to make a motion? Wolff I will make a motion. I move that Docket#2018-38-DSV, design standards variance, to provide for a new commercial tenant to occupy space in an existing commercial building, which will deviate from the required number of parking spaces, and deviate from the required percentage of non-industrial space in a general industrial district zoning district for the property located at 10650 Andrade Drive be approved as filed based upon the findings of fact as presented. Jones Is there a second? Evinger Second. Jones All those in favor? All Aye. Jones All those opposed? [No response] Jones Motion passes. Thank you very much. Qua We’ll do a happy dance. Thank you very much. Wolff Good luck. Morical Okay. I’m back. Thank you, Larry. Well done. So, it looks like we’ve got some other matters that we may need to address. Wayne, do you want to give us an update on any of these? DeLong Nothing more than the Lavallette certainly working through all of these, just we need these to come in. With Fisher Homes, I mean, I can report it’s the exact same report as last month. I have not heard the Fisher Homes names uttered, related to Ainsley Park for probably a year and a half. I know that the variance that was granted was to Fisher Homes, however, there is a new group out of Cincinnati that is trying, Gutwine, Guttman, that is trying to breathe some life into that property. Has secured, updated bonding with the state to finish out the curb cut, and they have got a lot of that work done, but yes, I just continue to not hear anything related to Fisher Homes specific to that property. Page 21 of 22 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 9, 2018 Morical Any other significant updates you want to provide to the Board? DeLong I don’t believe we have any other updates off-hand. Morical Thank you, Wayne. Any other matters we need to address tonight? DeLong We just have your findings of fact down at the other end of the table here, and then off-hand, Mr. Chadd, you were potentially working on some of the update to a specific set of commitments, not commitments, a specific set of findings where the petitioner left blank the third one. I think it was the Mah petition. And we are not ready to move forward on that one. We will need to move that on to next month, as well. Chadd Yes. I think so. Morical That is fine. If there is nothing further, then we are adjourned. Page 22 of 22