Plan Commission (PC)

ZIONSVILLE PLAN COMMISSION MEETING RESULTS Monday, September 16, 2024 6:30 PM (Local Time) THIS PUBLIC MEETING WAS CONDUCTED ONSITE AT THE ZIONSVILLE TOWN HALL, 1100 WEST OAK STREET, ROOM 105 (COUNCIL CHAMBERS). The following items were addressed: I. Pledge of Allegiance II. Attendance: David Franz, Josh Fedor, Jim Hurst, Mary Grabianowski, Cindy Madrick, Kendrick Davis, and Nick Plopper attended in person. III. Approval of the August 19, 2024, Regular Meeting Minutes: Approved IV. Continuance or Withdrawal Requests Docket Number & Petitioner / Address of Petitions Links Project Name Project 2024-50-Z: Initial Petition is continued to the October 21, 2024, Plan Commission Filing; Meeting as the mailing of Legal Notice to required interested parties has not occurred. Continuance Approved. PUD Ordinance 7 in Favor (2024-08-27) Pittman Partners / 11201 & 10801 E. 0 Opposed The Reserve at 200 South and Draft Union Woodlands 2475 S. U.S. 421, Rezoning of 147.4± acres from the Rural General Agriculture (AG) Commitments PUD Rezoning Zionsville, IN district to the Planned Unit Development (PUD) district for a mixed (2024-08-27) use development including single-family, townhomes, multi-family residential, and commercial uses. Letters of Interest Petition is continued to the October 21, 2024, Plan Commission Meeting as the needed Development Standards Variance was 2024-51-MP: continued to the October 2, 2024 BZA Hearing. Continuance John and Jill Sima / Initial Filing Approved. Sima Minor 7740 E 400 South, Subdivision Zionsville, IN 7 in Favor Continuance Primary Plat 0 Opposed Request Letter Request to approve a 3-lot minor residential subdivision plat on approximately 28 acres in the R-2 zoning district. V. Continued Business heard Docket Number & Petitioner / Address of Petitions Link Project Name Project None September 23, 2024  VI. New Business heard Docket Number & Petitioner/ Address of Links Petitions Project Name Project None VII. Other Matters considered Docket Number & Petitioner/ Address of Links Items Considered Project Name Project Plan Commission concurred with the Town Council’s decision to Action on Town reject the Ordinance Amendment. 2024-39-OA: Discussion and Certification to accept or reject the Town Council’s Council’s Rejection Staff Memo and Town-wide of Ordinance position on the proposed Ordinance amendments to Section Certification Amendment 194.202(C)(1)(e) concerning the Board of Zoning Appeals criteria for determining development standards variances. Plan Commission / Plan Commission directed Staff to finalize for action at the October Staff Memo and PC Rules and Town-wide 21, 2024, meeting. Draft Rules Procedures Resolution - Plan Commission Rules and Procedures Development Plan Commission directed Staff to finalize for action at the October Plan Review – Development Plans Town-wide 21, 2024, meeting. Summary Memo Discussion - Approval process for Development Plans Plan Commission directed Staff to continue refinement for Memo and discussion at future meetings. Plan Commission / Proposed Ordinance Town-wide Discussion - Draft ordinance amendments regarding accessory Ordinance Amendments dwelling units, agritourism, solar/wind energy, and code Amendments enforcement 2025 Plan Plan Commission approved 2025 calendar subject to final approval Draft 2025 PC from the Town Council. Commission Schedule and Town-wide Meeting Schedule Introduction of the proposed 2025 Plan Commission Meeting Deadlines and Deadlines Schedule and Deadlines Respectfully Submitted: Mike Dale, AICP Director – Planning and Building Department Town of Zionsville September 23, 2024 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 In Attendance: David Franz, Josh Fedor, Jim Hurst, Mary Grabianowski, Cindy Madrick, Nick Plopper Arrived Late: Kendrick Davis Staff attending: Mike Dale, Dan Taylor, Attorney Franz Let’s get started. Call to order the Plan Commission meeting of Monday, September 16, 2024. Let’s start with the Pledge of Allegiance please. All Pledge of Allegiance. Franz Secretary, please take roll. Dale Nick Plopper Plopper Present. Dale Cindy Madrick? Madrick Present. Dale Mary Grabianowski? Grabianowski Present. Dale Dave Franz? Franz Present. Dale Jim Hurst? Hurst Present. Dale Josh Fedor? Fedor Present. Dale All present. Franz Okay. We are missing Kendrick. Dale Yes, Kendrick. Thank you. Franz Is he, was he planning on coming? Dale I hadn’t heard. Franz Okay, well, if he shows up we’ll put it in the record. Page 1 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Dale Okay. Franz In your packet was a set of minutes from the August 19th meeting. Is there any comments, additions, deletions to those minutes? If not, is there a motion to approve? Grabianowski So moved. Franz Is there a second? Madrick Second. Franz Any discussion? All in favor signify by aye. All Aye. Franz Opposed by nay. [No response] Minutes are approved. We have some continuance requests. Docket Number 2024-50-Z, PUD, PUD Ordinance 2024-08-27, Pittman Partners/The Reserve at Union Woodlands PUD Rezoning, 11201 and 10801 East 200 South and 24, 2475 South U.S. 421, Zionsville. Rezoning of 147.4± acres from the Rural General Agriculture (AG) district to the Planned Unit Development (PUD) district for a mixed-used development including single-family, townhomes, multi-family residential and commercial uses. Are you handling the report on, is there anything to say on this or is the petitioner present? Dale Right, this item the applicant did not provide proper public notice – Franz Okay. Dale For this project so out of necessity it must be continued to next month. Franz Okay. So that will be continued to the October 21st meeting. Is there a motion to do so? Grabianowski So moved. Franz Is there a second? Fedor Second. Franz Any further discussion? All in favor signify by aye. All Aye. Franz Opposed by nay. [No response] Page 2 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 That matter is continued to next month. Next one is Docket 2024-51-MP, John and Jill Sima/Sima Minor Subdivision Primary Plat, 7740 East 400 South, Zionsville. Request to approve a 3-lot minor residential subdivision plat on approximately 28 acres in the R-2 zoning district. Dale Right and this item also out of necessity must be continued to next month because of the need for a Development Standards Variance that must be heard by the BZA before the, this plat can be approved by the Plan Commission. Franz Okay. Any questions? Is there a motion to continue this to the October 21st meeting? Hurst So moved. Franz Is there a second? Madrick Second. Franz Any further discussion? All in favor signify by aye. All Aye. Franz Opposed by nay. [No response] Motion carries. This matter is also continued to October 21st. All right, Other Matters to be Considered. We’ve got some Plan Commission Rules and Procedures related to – oh no, that’s that town, town – this is the BZA language or ordinance change. Mike, can you handle this one? Dale Yes, correct. At the Town Council meeting last month they rejected the proposed ordinance that the Plan Commission had voted favorably on and I talked to you about this. There was a change of opinion from the, the Board of Zoning Appeals really where they felt that they, where they had initially supported a change of the ordinance from, for findings for a Development Standards Variance from unnecessary hardship to practical difficulty. They later changed their minds essentially as a Board and felt that they wanted to keep the unnecessary hardship finding for Development Standards Variances and so I reported that, that matter to the Town Council and spoke with the President of the Plan Commission also and there was agreement to advise the Town Council to vote this ordinance amendment down, to reject the ordinance and keep the current language for unnecessary hardship and that is what the Town Council did and so what we’ve done is certify that decision to you for tonight’s meeting and give you the opportunity, according to the statute, to either approve that rejection or deny it thereby returning it to the Town Council for another vote of the Town Council. So that’s the decision in front of you with regard to that particular ordinance. Franz Okay. Page 3 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Grabianowski Just like a tennis ball back and forth. Dale So the legislature wanted to make sure that you were heard I think. Franz Yeah, I mean, that’s fine. We’ve discussed it. I think if we would’ve been, when we had the language in front of us where we pushed to the Town Council with a favorable recommendation if the members of the BZA at that time on the Plan Commission would’ve said this is something we don’t want, we probably would’ve gone that way so I’m perfectly comfortable with accepting the town’s rejection. Dale So should that be a vote? Taylor Yeah, you’ll need a motion. Franz Yeah, all right. Is there a motion to accept the town’s is it rejection or what do we? Taylor It’s kinda – Grabianowski I move that we accept the town’s decision to reject our opinion. Franz Is there a second? Madrick Second. Franz Any further discussion? Being none, all in favor signify by aye. All Aye. Franz Opposed by nay. [No response] That motion is carried. So we will sign, we’ll have to sign something to accept that, correct? All right. Dale Yes, yeah. Taylor A certification, yeah. Franz Okay, sure. And then so next on the docket is Development Plan Review. This is the, we discussed this last month about the Development Plans and the staff actually by Indiana statute can handle Development Plans if they’re ministerial in nature and so we asked Mike to put some, some language together on that so Mike, you want to walk us through that? Dale Sure. With regard to Development Plans what we’ve presented, what we’re presenting to you is, are some ideas for revising our, the current ordinance regarding Development Plan approval, the process for Development Plans and, Page 4 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 and how those Development Plans should be approved. What we’re suggesting is that there be a threshold for projects to meet, if having met that threshold that those projects would proceed to the Plan Commission. For example, under let’s see here – page 2 of the document we sent to you, projects requiring Plan Commission review and, again, on page 2 of the document letter A would be preliminary plans filed for PUDs so those would automatically be reviewed by the Plan Commission. Additions or expansions of any existing non-residential use or structure including outdoor storage or sales areas, parking spaces or paved surface parking areas by more than 50%. So those projects would be triggered to meet the, subject to Plan Commission approval. Franz Right. Dale But say addition of any vehicular access point to an existing public right-of-way, that would require Plan Commission approval of a Development Plan. Franz Let’s go, can we go back to B because you’ve got language in there – Dale Yeah. Franz Actually required if it, it has to go to the BZA – Dale Right. Franz And is greater than 20% of the current size so – Dale Correct. Franz I think that makes sense for some of the stuff that is in front of the BZA – Fedor Uh huh. Franz And so I think it gives us another bite at the apple so to speak when it comes to those matters so. Dale Yes, thank you. Letter D – the addition of any loading docks, drive-thru service lanes or outdoor storage or sales areas visible from a public right-of-way and exceeding 10% of the building size. That would also require Plan Commission review. And then we added Institutional Use Master Plans. This stems from the school system. They are looking at some long-range planning and instead of coming through every small incremental Development Plan, allowing them to submit a Master Development Plan for your review and approval. That would probably streamline the process for them and us so we’re not getting bogged down with the small, incremental changes to their growth strategy. The types of items that would receive administrative review, in other words, not go to the Plan Commission, are listed here on page 2 as well. For example, secondary review of PUDs or Institutional Master Plan, new construction, redevelopment of existing sites or additions or expansions of any existing non- residential use or structure including outdoor storage or sales areas, parking spaces or paved surface parking areas by less than 50% of the current size. So it’s Page 5 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 just the, the opposite of what we saw earlier for Plan Commission review or if any action is required, it is less than 20% of the current size so those projects would not come to the Plan Commission for approval but would be approved administratively. And then projects to be included in the Institutional Use Master Plan that do not modify the original Master Plan so minor amendments to that Master Plan document. So that is, there, there’s a lot here. I don’t think I want to read all that to you. Franz No, that’s fine. Dale But we ask that you take a look at this and if you are supportive, either now or if you want to give us direction now or take another month or two whatever your comfort level is, tell us whether you think we ought to proceed with this concept, we would then put it in ordinance form and have our legal counsel review it and I probably also would meet with the Town Council, probably most importantly meet with the Town Council – Franz Yeah. Dale And, and see if they have any concerns but I wanted to inform the Town Council that you have seen a very strong version or draft of this proposal and that you’re supportive of it and have that to, to convey to them. Franz Well, I think it’s important to, to note with these items that if they came before us, I mean even if it’s more than 50% of addition, if they meet all the ordinances we have to approve it. I mean historically what we do is for things along that line if there’s public comment we try to get the petitioner and any remonstrators, if you will, to kinda meet and see if they can work out their differences and we kinda use this to kinda force that but, ultimately, if they can’t work out their differences, we still have to approve it. So and – Dale So it’s, it’s really unfair in a sense, you know, to have a, a public hearing and giving the public the perception that this is something that they can have an influence on its outcome when really they don’t. If the project meets all of the Development Standards of the Zoning Code, the Plan Commission has no alternative but to approve the project. Franz And, and I think it’s important for the stuff that’s smaller – Dale Yeah. Franz That you just handle it. Anything that’s a little bit bigger that might have some public interest – Dale Uh huh. Franz I think it makes sense to maybe, like I said, get the petitioner and potential remonstrators together, see if they can work out any differences. I, I think most of our petitioners want to be good neighbors – Page 6 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Dale Uh huh. Franz So we’ve had a lot of luck in swaying those individuals to kind of work with the remonstrators so. Dale Additionally, this ordinance would give the Planning Director some discretion. For example, if it were, maybe if it’s a project that doesn’t meet one of these thresholds but, in my opinion as Director, I think that this is potentially controversial, this may get a lot of attention, I really think that we want to approve this administratively – Franz Yeah. Dale So it gives the Director some, some, some authority to say I’m going to have this as a hearing item anyway. Grabianowski You’re gonna pass the buck? Dale Exactly. I don’t want to take the heat for it, I want to give it to you. Franz Well the other, so, for instance, we’ve been having some busier nights so like next month I think you said there’s actually 18 – Dale Yeah. Franz Items on the docket and we have to have two meetings next month to deal with those. So and how many of those items on the docket would be something that the staff could just handle? Dale Probably, I, I don’t know offhand. I’m guessing in the area of four or five though. Franz Okay. Dale Yeah. Franz So. Fedor On any given month though there’s at least two or three – Dale Uh huh. Fedor On an average where we would have six or seven, you’re going to weed off two or three of those for us. Franz Well the Sima one is a prime example, they have to get it because it’s a flag lot, correct? Dale Uh huh. Page 7 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Franz But, I mean, that would be one once they get the variance, I mean chances are it’s going to come to us and chances are we’re going to approve it so, I mean those are ministerial-type items that we have to approve so. Dale And, and redoing this also then we’re taking off some of these smaller projects that would need to be approved by the Plan Commission anyway but this way we don’t have to write staff reports – Franz Yeah. Dale We don’t have to provide public notice, we don’t have to take time at a public hearing so it, it’s all a part of an effort to streamline and, and improve our procedures. Franz Yep. Fedor Mike, is there anything besides the school system that would use an Institutional Use Master Plan? Dale Medical? Taylor Hospitals. Dale Yeah. Fedor Hospitals would? Dale Yeah. Fedor I mean are, are utilities or public or would a public utility of any nature ever need that? Dale I don’t think so. Fedor Hospitals would be the other – Taylor Yeah, the two that, in most communities, it’s your hospitals and your school, colleges, community college, things like that is, is the type of development that that, that’s where that fits. Dale Maybe the airport if they had a Master Plan. Fedor Don’t open that can of worms again Mike. Fedor I, I thought that’s kinda what we had done, well we did from our side of it, yeah, it would the airport maybe – Dale Uh huh. Fedor Fall under that as well. Okay. Page 8 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Hurst Yeah, I’m not sure in the language what etc. means so I would hope – Dale Oh my goodness, where’d you see that? Fedor Government entity, etc. Hurst Yeah, it’s E in 1. 1E Institutional Use Master Plan. In certain cases an institutional use – school, place of worship, hospital or government entity, etc. so that’s not legal language. Let’s make sure it doesn’t end up like that. Franz Well Dan, Dan would’ve caught that. Dan would’ve caught that. Hurst Oh I know Dan, and Dan also would catch this – but in item 1B it’s of any action is required by the BZA and is greater than 20% of the current size and then for the administrative review – if any action is required by the BZA is less than 20%. Dale Yes. Hurst It leaves open, what happens at exactly 20%? So – Dale Okay, plus or minus, yeah, right. Hurst So, 20% or greater – Dale Yeah, right. Fedor You’re just gonna make our job easier on the BZA aren’t ya? Hurst Yeah. I, I just. I don’t want to talk about those things ever again. No, I fully support what the goals of this are and then maybe more a style point than a legal point – Dale Thank you. Gotcha. Hurst It references the part that gives the Director sole discretion. It uses a gender term so I might suggest – Dale Oh my land. Hurst The Director has sole discretion rather than in his sole discretion. Dale Right. Hurst But, again, the, the, the – I understand this isn’t the final proposed document. Franz Yep. Dale Okay, thank you for catching those. Hurst Yeah. Page 9 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Franz But I, I, I personally think that we should move forward with these, this language – Hurst I, I very much agree. Fedor I see multiple benefits to it – streamlining for staff, streamlining for us and at the end of the day some of these things, as you said, we’re going to have to vote yes on them no matter how we, how we look at it so. Hurst We as Planning Commission members are cheap labor. Staff is expensive labor and let’s let them, let’s let them spend their time on maybe the detailed, more nondiscretionary things. Franz And all of this, all of this is permitted by Indiana statute. There’s a lot of jurisdictions, Dan, you can state that the staff handles all this stuff. Taylor Right, right and the trend is for that to happen as Plan Commissions have particularly become busier. Dale Okay. Franz Do we have to have a motion to or can we just move forward with that? Dale I think that we can move forward – Franz Okay. Dale With the, with the based on the minutes of tonight’s meeting that we will, as I outlined, we can take the next steps and draft, put in this ordinance format, meeting with the Town Council, having our legal counsel review it. Franz Okay. Dale Before advertising it for a hearing. Franz Then we got some more code amend, code amendment additions. Dale Yeah, yeah. There’s a thick document where there’s several proposed changes relating to accessory dwelling units, agritourism, solar energy, wind energy, battery energy storage and code enforcements. What we want to do is really just present to you the status of the work that we have done thus far on these, particularly with regard to solar and wind. I’ll give you a brief overview but tonight we’re not intending for you – like what we just did with the Development Plans. There’s a lot here and we actually are still making some adjustments to it. We’re still working through staff on, on finetuning this so I just wanted to give you kind of an update of, of where we are with these amendments so far. With regard to accessory dwelling units, what we are proposing is an ordinance amendment that would make it easier for homeowners or residential property owners where there’s already a single-family dwelling to have what sometimes is called a granny flat or an in-law like housing option. That’s not on the same level Page 10 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 as a duplex. It’s, it’s not quite as independent as a duplex. It’s truly accessory, meaning it’s smaller and subordinate to the primary dwelling and so in the ordinance you’ll see that there’s a square footage threshold for accessory dwelling units, minimum unit size 250 square feet, maximum unit size of 850 and the maximum height of 24 square feet so these are supposed to be small and these would be allowed by right in certain zoning districts. Again, this is plan to provide more housing options for people in Zionsville in certain areas of, of the town but mostly, probably mostly in the rural areas – Franz Uh huh. Dale Of, of the town. So that’s the intent but then look at it closely if you have questions and also, again, we are in the process, still tweaking this ordinance but that’s the direction we’re trying to go in. With regard to agritourism, the intent here is to provide more economic advantages for the farming community in Zionsville by means of allowing them, in some cases by right and in other cases involving a public hearing, for certain venues that they may want to offer. For example, like hayrides and mazes, things of that nature, tourism options for farmers, things that they can do that will bring people onto their property where they can charge admission and allow them to have another source of income for their farming operation. Other uses that will be more intensive like gift shops and restaurants, those would involve, those would be called type 2 agritourism and those would require a hearing with the Board of Zoning Appeals. So that, this is something that was an option in the former Form Based Code that we thought was kind of a good idea – Franz Uh huh. Dale And wanted to kinda re-present that to you as an option for the farming community in Zionsville. So if you’d look through that more closely, it’s a lot there related to agritourism. Plopper May I ask a question about that? Dale Yes, of course. Plopper So I know the existing code has, allows for seasonal use – I don’t know if it’s a variance or exemption but that’s already preexisting so how’s this different? Dale Uh huh, uh huh – those would be like type 1 activities where they’re, they’re seasonal, temporary – those would be for the definition for type 1. Plopper Uh huh. Dale And those would be allowed by right. They would still need to get permitting, go through permitting, especially if it involves a structure. Otherwise, we try to streamline the process for them and allow them to do those types of things. The year-round events, year-round like I mentioned, restaurants or and more intensive uses like a tractor pull that might cause a lot of noise and bring a lot of people to Page 11 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 the property, things of that nature, and, again long term not just seasonal events. Those would be – Franz So – Dale Subject to BZA approval. Franz So for the type 1 events – Dale Yeah – Franz Would they have to get a permit for each individual activity, I mean so – Dale No. Franz So they could get it for the whole season? Dale Some things they can just do. Franz Okay. Dale They could like, like the corn maze and hayrides they could just do that – Franz Okay. Dale We’re not trying to put them through another process – Franz Okay. Dale Where they need a building permit then, of course, then they’ll go through us. Franz Okay. Dale But there’s standards too. So it’s not like they just go do it. Yes you can do that but these are, these are the criteria you need to follow. You know, there’s, there’s provisions for parking and hours of operation – Franz Yeah. Dale And things of that nature. Fedor Can we get gem – Dale Mine? Fedor Mine, yeah can we get gem mines out of there? I don’t think there’s any gem mines – Dale Okay. Fedor In Indiana. Page 12 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Hurst Well but, you know like bounce houses? Fedor Uh huh – Hurst Gem mines you can set up a sand and water station and have kids, I think that’s what they’re talking about – Fedor Is that what, is that what – Dale That’s exactly what it is. Fedor I’m thinking like to pay $10 digging in the side of – Hurst ___ 26:21 12 years old whether you’re digging in the backyard. Fedor No like in Arkansas people digging for mines – Dale Ahhh. Fedor Public-type mines. Okay. Franz The diamond is in Arkansas. Dale That didn’t even cross my mind but gosh – Fedor Okay, I just, that, that was – I saw that and I’m like what gem mining? Dale This was, a lot of that language was taken from Hancock County and there was a particular interest in Hancock County that wanted gem, gem mines – Fedor Okay. Dale So. Hurst Think more like a kids game than anything. Fedor And then the other one that I, under type 2 that I have a little concern with and it may be a self-serving concern but there is someone else in this business is feed mills, any commercial operation. Generally the feed and maybe that’s seeking along the lines, again, artisanal type mill of some nature but feed mills predominantly are servicing the local agricultural community, much like a grain elevator would be – Dale Yeah. Fedor And I think those are still considered acceptable for anyone in the AG zoning within the county at this time. Dale Okay. Page 13 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Fedor So but those, that would be a concern having that to that level of scrutiny. Dale Right, those would be allowed by right as a vendor, as a farming vendor. Fedor Yes, exactly. Dale Okay, gotcha. Fedor Exactly. Dale Gotcha. Hurst And then not to get through everyone of these but type 1 is horseback riding, type 2 is riding stables. Dale Yeah, we talk about that. Fedor It gets sticky. Hurst And, I, I might suggest okay, if you’ve got a 10-stall barn and you’re intending to rent out 10 stalls maybe that’s a commercial operation then. Dale Uh huh. Hurst And too, you got three stalls and you want to let a friend keep a horse there and pay a little money it then maybe a type 1. Dale Uh huh. Hurst That would be what, what, being in the riding community that would seem to go on quite a bit and it would put a lot of folks in that they can’t board a horse or two without coming and getting Special Exceptions. Dale Uh huh. Okay. Hurst Well, we, we don’t board horses. Please this is not an advertisement. I don’t want any more horses – Dale So a lot of that is part of the ordinance. There are standards too for, like standards waste and debris, buffering, things of that nature. So, and we’re going to listen to tonight’s tape of your comments again and we’ll make those adjustments. Hurst I, I’m sure. Thank you. Dale All right, anything else on the agritourism? Fedor I think it’s great you’re getting something, we’re getting something in writing on this being very proactive considering some of the stuff that’s going to be working its way into the community here very soon. Franz Yeah. Page 14 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Hurst I agree. Dale All right, then we’re going to move on, Mr. Chair, do you want to move on to – Franz Sure. Dale The next topic? Franz Have you talked about the, the – Dale Oh, there’s other things in here. Franz Wind and – Dale Right. The wind and solar. Thank you. Wind and solar there is, we want to get ahead of the, the game as far as wind and solar. So far we have not been approached to my knowledge. Franz Yeah we have. Grabianowski Oh yeah. Dale For, for large scale? Grabianowski Oh yeah. Franz Oh yeah. Dale For large scale? Franz It went to the BZA for – Dale Oh. Franz And it was, it was one of the ones they denied. Dale Ahh, okay. Franz So. Dale All right. Well, we don’t have a rigorous ordinance – Franz Yeah. Dale That speaks to wind and solar energy generation so what we’ve done here is we’ve come up with submittal requirements and Development Standards and an approval process and a very rigorous approval process relating to solar and wind energy. There is, with regard to solar, there is like personal scale solar so if somebody just wants to have some solar panels on their house that would be allowed by right, just get a permit or if you want to have some solar panels in Page 15 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 your yard that would be allowed by right but the utility scale solar would be subject to rezoning. So, a Plan Commission hearing, Town Council approval and then another leg would be, involve the Board of Zoning Appeals for a Special Exception and then if that gets approved, Development Plan approval. And, and utility scale wind is a similar process and there was a lot of discussion among staff about whether it’s necessary and appropriate to add the Board of Zoning Appeals Special Exception process in addition to the rezoning process and Development Plan review process and so that’s really kind of my big question for you this evening. Franz So, so if we don’t have the BZA involved – Dale Yes – Franz So they still have to meet is it nine hurdles? So if, if they get rezoned – Dale Uh huh – Franz To be able to permit this, it’s still a Special Exemption under that rezoning, correct? Dale Well that’s the debate whether to do, it’d be a Special Exception. Taylor That’s the way it’s drafted. Franz The way it’s drafted – Dale Yes. Franz But with the, right, with the Special Exemption does that, that doesn’t force it to go to the BZA does it? Taylor Yes. Franz Okay, it does. All right. So, all right, so – during the, so really it’s leaving it up to the, I mean essentially to the Town Council if they wanna? Dale Yeah, if we were to remove, change the draft in front of you to remove the BZA Special Exception process. Fedor So currently it would be, the, the way that this is drafted it would come to BZA. If it doesn’t get past the BZA it’s, it is essentially dead for the 6 to 12 months or however long it is? Dale Uh huh. Fedor If we – Franz That’s today, correct? Page 16 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Fedor That’s, that’s today’s setting and what we are currently doing is going to still have that same qualification or is it just going to go from us? Franz So the question is, is are we going to put them through a rezone and they’re going to fight that battle with us and then with the Town Council – Fedor Uh huh. Franz And then let’s say it does get approved, so that would indicate to me that the Town Council would be for it and then we turn around and say oh, but in addition, now you have to meet these nine hurdles for the Special Exemption by going to the BZA and go through that process again. Fedor Okay. Franz The thought process is if they’ve gone through the Plan Commission and they’ve gone to the Town Council, they’ve got approval for it do we really need to put them through the BZA process again? Fedor I, I personally don’t think so but, I mean, I guess that’s getting, my opinion here, you’re getting a pretty strong consensus of we’re, we’re going to vet that project and town staff’s going to vet that project and Town Council is going to get a say on that side of it. Dale Well and – Fedor Like I said, we don’t get paid enough. Let them make the hard decision. Franz Again, it’s a rezone. I mean think about it, if they wanted to do a commercial solar – Fedor Uh huh – Franz I mean they’re not going to, I mean they’re going to have to rezone a pretty big – Fedor Huge piece. Franz Property. It’s going to be difficult enough for them to get that then you gotta come to us and then apply to the Town Council so. It’s a significant hurdle in my mind for them to meet. I just don’t think it makes sense for them to have to jump the hurdle a second time – Grabianowski I agree. Franz If they’ve already done it. Hurst Well I, I don’t know yet if I agree or disagree with Dave. Can, can staff explain why we inserted it in the draft language, the Special Exception? Dale Our understanding from presenting this concept to the Plan Commission is that you wanted the most rigorous process possible so that’s what we did. Page 17 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Hurst Okay. Dale The most rigorous process would involve the Plan Commission, Town Council and BZA for it to get approval of this. So that was the direction that we heard from the Plan Commission. Taylor Yeah and statewide jurisdictions have, they started in almost all cases with wind and solar saying you have to get a Special Exception we’re going to make it really difficult to get and then they and then I would say 98% of jurisdictions went that direction. Then what they began to understand after some degree of time was a Special Exception is not discretionary so if that goes to the BZA and that applicant could show that they met the criteria under the statute or under the ordinance then the BZA’s hands were tied. So as these projects became larger and now they, some of them are over 10,000 acres the, the pendulum swung back the other way and many jurisdictions said we’re, we’re going to create a special district where that only, only deals with wind and solar and we’re gonna, we’re gonna let the people who got elected ultimately make these kinds of big decisions in a community and, and they have discretion in a rezone where the BZA does not have discretion on a Special Exception. Let’s get it to that area where it’s discretionary. Not only are they elected, maybe they should shoulder that but also by the time it gets to the Town Council you all, the Plan Commission, would have vetted it. You may have recommended approval or denial, you may have recommended approval with conditions. The law says that the Plan Commission, they’re the experts. They’re the people who really are the experts in a community. Not the BZA, no offense to any of that. The BZA, they just had a different role and the Plan Commission, the Town Council expects you guys to, they view you as the experts. So this idea of shifting it back to the rezone side was the other way that’s become much more popular than this and I agree with Mike. This is a combination which would be the strictest possible scenario which would be you have to get a rezone first and then if you are successful, then you have another step to go through that is not guaranteed. There is, and there have been cases where they have systems like what you’ve approved in the Town Council, the Town Council approved it and then the, the BZA denied it which didn’t make the Plan Commission or the Town Council very happy but that, that’s occurred and so that, that kind of is the lay of the land. Started with just a Special Exception approval, kind of moved back to a rezone which I think is much better having it, have, having a rezone somewhere in there and also this doesn’t say you can do this in AG. This, this creates a special district where you, if you’re AG now you would have to rezone to the special use – Franz Right. Taylor And that is important also because then it’s a fresh look, it’s a fresh look at the whole, the whole picture. Franz And we all know that we let the public speak on these matters. So they’re going to be heard when it comes to the Plan Commission. So I don’t think this is any Page 18 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 way as trying to limit their input because like I said, we, we let pretty much anybody who wants to speak come up and speak. Fedor You’re right the hats are completely different from the Planning Commission standpoint and BZA standpoint. The longer I’m on there the more I’m realizing that so to have them have to go through a rezone and then have to go back to the BZA again, we’re talking a tremendous amount of staff man hours, legal man hours on both the, as, as well as the petitioner’s man hours. It’s been through us and through Town Council, I, I think, I think we’re there. It should be ready to go. Madrick I have a question not about that part but the home, the solar arrays attached to a roof – Dale Yeah. Madrick How does that play a role in a homeowner’s association? Because I live in a homeowner’s association that does not allow that. Dale Uh huh. Madrick Will this trump that? Dale No, not at all. Madrick Okay. Dale Completely separate, independent decisions by – Madrick Okay. Dale A HOA and the town. Madrick I figured but I just wanted to make sure. Taylor That’s a good question. Hurst I, I’ll ask a question on, on the size. We, we’ve defined personal solar array and we have defined utility scale. There’s a lot of room in between what I can throw up on my house and 10 megawatts. Dale Uh huh. Hurst So what are we doing with the in between size? Dale I thought that it clearly said – Hurst Well, clearly to you and clearly to me are two different things. Dale It’s clear to an expert and I’m not one – Page 19 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Hurst Okay. Dale Yes, but that’s my answer is that there really is, there’s a clear boundary between the, the small scale and the utility scale. Hurst Okay. Well, we’ve defined utility scale as, as 10 megawatts. Dale Uh huh. Hurst So what’s the approval process for 9.5 gigawatts or megawatts? Sorry. Franz Gigawatts. Hurst Gigawatts? Megawatts? I don’t know, I’ll use 10. Fedor Gigawatts. Hurst I believe you it’s in there. I couldn’t figure it out. Dale Yeah, okay. Well I think it’s in the front here. Yeah, utility scale solar has a nameplate capacity of at least 10 megawatts and captures for solar energy so there’s a threshold there – has, has at least 10 megawatts, if not more. Hurst Okay, now read in the personal one. Dale Personal scale – Hurst If it’s to serve the house itself – Dale Yeah. Hurst Is the – Dale Yeah. Hurst So I don’t know what to do with some of the – Dale So personal scale solar panels attached to a roof or building and the addition of rooftop solar panel array, so there’s, it’s tended for a freestanding personal scale solar panel arrays – Franz I don’t, I don’t know how much a, a personal one would generate. Dale Yeah. Hurst Well I – Fedor Not much in Indiana. Hurst 10 megawatts will support about 1,200 homes. Page 20 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Franz Okay, all right. That’s fine. Hurst And so 9 megawatts would serve 800 homes and that doesn’t sound personal to me so I’m just trying to understand how we define it. Taylor So most, most ordinances really create three classifications. So you’ve got the two. You’ve got large scale industrial which is a statutory definition, you’ve got personal for your home. What usually falls in between because they, most ordinances focus on where’s the power going. So anything that’s going offsite is usually treated as commercial. If Oracle wants to build a facility here and they want to have solar onsite just for them, not for, not to distribute that’s usually allowed by right. That’s usually, because it’s going to have to be on their property anyway but anything that’s going to be put on the grid is generally treated as being commercial so the definitions will probably need to be worked on but that’s the general way people approach that. Hurst Well and, and that’s what I was driving at. If, if the purpose of the facility is to sell electricity to the grid, that seems to me a utility scale. Taylor That’s correct. And, and most of the projects I’ve seen are well above 10 but that is where, that comes from the statutory definition and, and there is a standard. A definition of commercial solar energy system in, in the statute which is binding upon us so you start it from there but we do need to fill in that missing area and deal with the less than 10 megawatt to go and again, most people say is that, is that power going to be sold? If it is, it’s commercial, small commercial. If it’s not, if it’s, even if it’s pretty big but it’s all going to be used onsite like a school, for example, a school could do that then that’s a different thing together – Hurst Yeah. Taylor But we’ll have to work on that and that’s the details of the definition. Hurst I mean I, I’ve read through this a couple of times – Dale Yeah. Hurst And it, it is comprehensive and I think that it checks the, the boxes. The best practices as developed by other communities, it sets up clear rules about bonding should the solar project not be a winner and they have to shut down and removal of the solar panels. I mean I, I find this comprehensive and I very much, the Special Exception, BZA stuff or not I, I mean I have an opinion but I’m happy to go either way on it but I mean it’s well researched, well done. I’m just unclear of, of what happens between personal and – Dale Okay. Hurst Utility scale. Dale We can ask for clarity for that. Page 21 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Franz This actually kinda spun out of the, the airport’s thing because we, remember we talked about putting, allowing electrical up there or power – Fedor Yeah. Hurst Yeah. Franz Solar up there and then the discussion came about Special Exception and all that and you think Special Exception is kinda like more arbitrary but no, if they meet all the requirements you have to approve it so. Dale Right. Fedor One more thing on the commercial solar I had was road, road repair. Traditionally these things are put out in the rural areas of our community. That’s what these sites are looking at. These are on gravel roads. This is a town that has input wide pathways that are paved everywhere and we still have gravel roads. A condition should be they, they need to upgrade all, all the roadways on that, to that site and maintain the upgraded, upgraded roadways not just maintain a gravel road but actually pave the road. Franz You know this also contemplates wind so a lot of the wind farms you see it’s connected by, there are gravel roads through the farm. I mean is, do you want that? Fedor No, I’m just talking about the general public roadway. Franz The public? Okay. Fedor Yeah because, I mean – Franz All right. Fedor And, and the county does what it can and everyone hopes that eventually that lives on a gravel road that someday it’ll get paved but everyone would be shocked how much dust suppressant I sell every year to folks who are just trying to keep the dust off their homes, their kids, lung issues, I mean all these roads are getting more traffic than they ever have. Dale Like the perimeter roads is what you’re saying? Fedor Well just the public roadways themselves. Dale For what, for what radius of the site or for what, which road? Fedor Just adjoining to the property – Dale Okay. Fedor You know I’m, I’m thinking like a, let’s say county road I’ll use – Page 22 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Grabianowski 200 North is gravel. Fedor 200 North is a gravel road that was going through the last ____ 44:52 site. That should’ve been paved all the way to, to a, to a main artery or to 421 and then to another paved road on the other side. Dale Okay. So it must be connected to a paved road – Grabianowski 200 North on the other side of Michigan Road is. Fedor Yeah, it is, yes, it is now but traditionally I understand why that road hasn’t been paved. It gets used twice a year predominantly by, by the farmers in the community – Dale Yeah. Fedor And the few residents who live on it but this is a different beast. Franz Yeah. Fedor So. And I would say it is in their best interest to keep the dust off the panels anyway – Dale Uh huh. Fedor So. That’s just one of the other things I had on that. Dale Thank you. Davis Is there anything or I don’t know the legalities of it but most of the projects that I have seen that are of the utility scale the power is going to like Illinois, Ohio. Is there anything that we can put in there as far as this is a local project that’s on local land that’s partaking like – anything we can say in there to? Dale I don’t think so. Taylor No, it’s regulated by the, that’s regulated by the state. The Indiana Regulatory Commission you can’t get into their area. We’re preempted. Davis Okay. Taylor That’s a good question, one I’ve heard many times before and but it, it, this draft does have a good provision that they can’t get their approval until they have a contract to be on the grid. That is – Hurst Awesome. Taylor The developers like to do it the other way around and get all the approvals so they can sell the site to a producer and that means you never know really who you’re dealing so this draft the necessity of that contract for the grid, a power contract, is really important and I like the way that’s done because then at least Page 23 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 you know who you’ll, who you’ll be dealing with but I think every community feels that way very much so but that’s outside of our purview. Davis Okay and I was, I appreciate that answer because it kinda answered another question I had because it’s the times that I’ve, I’ve seen these contracts come out, there’s three different entities involved and you can’t quite put your finger on which one is actually, who are you actually doing business with, you know, because you have a buyer and a developer and then an operator but the operator is able to sell it off and you know so – Taylor You’re right. That’s how they do it. Yeah, the ones that I dealt with early on, none of the companies who were developing it were from the United States. Davis Yeah. Taylor It creates other issues. Davis The last one that I saw was the ownership of the business was a Saudi Arabian company and the California Teachers Union. Taylor Exactly. I’ve dealt with them too. Davis So just trying to clean, yeah. Fedor And, and I, I read through it all but I didn’t see if change of ownership happens on these sites are we notified? I know we’re getting a biannual or bimonthly report of the condition of the panels – Dale Change of ownership? Fedor Change of ownership – are we being notified when these properties are changing? I mean, because he’s right – these, these people come out, they try to get the contracts signed and then they’re going to sell that thing three or four times over before it even gets anywhere. Dale Uh huh. Taylor There usually is a provision for that. I thought I saw one in here – Fedor Okay. Taylor That there, it was required because, because of the bonding – the decommissioning bonding there, there would be that, that concern would be addressed in the issue and I thought I saw that it, if it doesn’t say that we should add it but I think it does say that. And that’s because of a decommissioning issue which is not, I don’t know about solar but on wind the, the cost to decommission a commercial wind farm is more than your town budget so you have to protect against that and it’s really big money. Fedor I’m in the wrong business. Page 24 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Hurst Are, are there any other zoning setups that behave as you contemplate here that it goes through Plan Commission, Town Council then goes back to the BZA or is this a standalone? Dale No, there are some. I can’t think of them but we looked at that and it’s, it’s, it is, there’s a precedent in our Zoning Code. Hurst Dan, by chance, do you know what they are? Taylor Yeah, I would say it’s a minority position. I would say it’s about, currently it’s about 50/50 between just getting a Special Exception and getting a rezone. I would say that’s about 50/50 now, although swinging pretty hard back to the rezone side but there are, I would say less than 10% jurisdictions require both. Hurst Oh, I’m sorry – maybe I wasn’t clear on my question. Franz He’s talking about our ordinance, about us, Zionsville. Hurst Yeah, in Zionsville is there any other process that requires – Taylor Oh. Hurst Going back to the BZA after it gets a, a, a positive vote at Town Council? Dale In, in many cases to qualify for a Special Exception you have to have proper zoning so in those cases where the, the land is not properly zoned qualify for the Special Exception and, and you’ll see that and I can’t come up with an exact example. Taylor Yeah, I would say in my experience it’s about, about one-third, two-thirds. About one-third of cases involve a rezone and then a Special Exception review because they want a rezone. They don’t want to rezone all the way to a more intense use like maybe to C1 versus a C2 but there are a lot, I mean, in your training materials I have a list of all the things you require a Special Exception for. You have a lot so naturally that occurs, that double process but this is, yeah, this is probably just unusual because of the sheer scope of what you’re dealing with is dramatically different than most other uses. Franz Well I think the ones we currently require a Special Exception it’s because if they meet the Special Exception code the, the property is not specifically zoned just for that. It’s so, for broad spec – and then just one item that – Hurst No that’s, that’s an important distinction. Taylor The concept behind a Special Exception approval instead of making something permitted is because there’s just something about a use which makes it prone to be impactful to other adjoining properties. So if you look at the list of things that require that, that’s each jurisdiction saying we’re a little worried about these things. There are some uses you don’t worry about at all but ones that are either have noise or light or traffic or some are just a, the best example is a kennel. Kennels have noise and so they, they use, in almost every jurisdiction they Page 25 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 require a Special Exception and so just things like that so if you think about it, whether or not you have the Special Exception is usually because there’s something problematic or impactful. Quiet use I call it, quiet use tend, tends to not require that and so that’s the, the kind of the starting point for why do some have the, have the Special Exception because we think it’s going to be impactful but yet the town, you, on your recommendation the Town Council gets to make that list in their ordinance of what they think needs extra, an extra hard look and then we run to Josh and the BZA and let them decide. Josh He’s on there with me now too. Hurst If I ever show up. Taylor Don’t let that play into your decision making. Hurst No, it, it really doesn’t. I mean they’re two different rules – Taylor Yeah. Hurst But, okay. No, I appreciate the, the discussion. Davis Is there, so as I just read through this and I, I may have missed it, I apologize. The utility scale solar energy facility process #1 says location, installation or placement of a utility scale. A solar energy facility is permissible in only the urban special use zoning district subject to the BZA approval of a Special Exception and the Plan Commission approval of a Development Plan. Does, where is the Town Council approval? Franz For the rezone. So we’re, we’re rezoning it to special, what was it special use? Taylor Yeah. Fedor Special use and that’s – Franz So they come to us – Hurst 16. Franz They come to us, we give it a favorable or unfavorable, it goes to the town and then they vote yea or nay. Davis Okay. Franz So – Davis I just don’t see it specifically in here. Hurst You, you, you have to get to the bottom of page 35 – Madrick Yeah. Page 26 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Hurst Where it says SU-16 only exists at 5400 Turkey Foot Road to understand half of Zionsville was an SU-16. It took me a while to figure that out. Davis Okay. Just plain English in this helps a lot so. Hurst Yeah, yeah. There, there functionally is no ground zoned this zoning so we have to rezone it or recommend a rezoning to Town Council. Davis Okay. Fedor But with a rezoning we have, we have quite a bit of discretion on a rezoning. Franz You have 100% discretion on a rezoning. Fedor Exactly. Exactly. Dale What else under agritourism or agribusiness? Then also within here is just some, a few tweaks on code enforcement, increasing the notification timeline prior to issuance of citations, increasing the fines and an important provision that we’re adding that expressly allows the town to seek reimbursement for the costs it incurs for code enforcement – that’s not in our ordinance right now. So that, that’s a very important reference that we’re able to seek reimbursement for the costs we incur for legal fees, litigation expenses in bringing the, the, the site into compliance. That’s needed. Oh and the battery energy storage. That’s something we just added very, like within the last month. We became aware of a trend, I guess, for citing for battery storage also relating, of course, to wind and solar large utility scale projects. So we, we added that into the ordinance as well. Franz And when you’re talking battery storage you’re talking about the big lithium banks – Dale Big, big. Franz And storing energy for immediate usage. Dale Yeah. Franz Okay. Taylor They look like railcars when they stack ‘em, yeah. Fedor Have, have we addressed data centers anywhere in our – Dale No. We talked about that recently. Fedor Because now we’re talking about batteries – Dale Right. Fedor Maybe it might be – Page 27 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Franz Didn’t I see them trying to put a data center up north here a while ago? Fedor Not that I know of. Franz Maybe it was in a different county. Dale Should we go ahead and do that with this process since we’re looking at kind of all this? Fedor I mean if you’re going in, it, it’s a good time to jump into them – Dale Yeah. Fedor I guess. Dale Okay, yeah, because we just had a call, a question last week on a data center. Franz They make the warehouses look small. Taylor Huge power use. Fedor Yeah, yeah. Dale So this is still very drafty, right? There’s still work to do on it – Fedor Right. Dale But we wanted to bring it to you. Hurst There’s a great amount of, of really, really good work in there – Fedor Yeah. Hurst I, you know, I, I lend toward the Special Exception. I like the language in here but the most important thing is that the elected officials have a crack at this. Dale Uh huh. Fedor Yeah. Hurst And even without the Special Exception, just the rezoning that, that satisfies 90% of what, what I’m looking for so take your, take your cue from the rest of the Plan Commission on that please. Dale Okay, all right. ?? Mike, do we have a chance to comment on this? [from audience] Franz No, it’s not a public hearing on this matter so. Page 28 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Dale Well the cue I’m getting, I think there’s a, you’re leaning, the majority is leaning away from the Special Exception requirement. Franz Yeah. Dale Okay. Fedor Yeah, I think so, yeah. Dale All right, then we’ll move on – Franz We got the calendar for next year? Dale Yeah, before we get to the calendar because that’s an easy one – Franz All right – Dale There’s the Rules of Procedure and we’ve drafted new rules – Franz Is that – oh, okay this, okay gotcha. This didn’t, this didn’t have the – okay. I was, I gotcha – Dale Okay? Franz Yeah. Dale And you see there’s been a few minor changes to the new rules. For example, we deleted a reference to a committee hearing officer. We didn’t see a need for that. There was a discussion about ex parte language – Franz Uh huh. Dale Where it is acceptable, it should be acceptable for the Plan Commission members to have individual conversations with Town Council members about projects. Dan, could you elaborate a little bit further on that? You know when it’s acceptable and when it’s not, what qualifies as ex parte and doesn’t. Taylor Yeah, yeah – BZA members know they’re, they’re prohibited by statute from having communications with members of the public or the parties about a BZA case. And so that’s the law. There is no such prohibition on the Plan Commission under the statute but your Rules of Procedure have said that as long as I’ve been here so it’s kind of curious and so in, in, in and so I just, I made the suggestion that you just take that out because: 1) It’s your role is advisory on many issues and then on the issues where you’re making the decisions, it’s fairly ministerial and so I have never seen – I don’t want to say it doesn’t exist but you’re the only one I’m aware of that as Plan Commission members have like this gag order where you can’t talk to anyone about anything including in, in this particular case more recently a Town Council member who just wants to talk to you about something – Franz Yeah. Page 29 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Taylor And so I suggested it be taken out. Aside from that, it is incredibly difficult to police. How is anybody going to know who you talk to and, and it makes you subject to being disqualified by the mere allegation that you’ve spoken to someone or received an email from someone. Someone could even send you an email about it and then try to disqualify you and so it’s fraught with problems that I don’t think we should, we should want and so, yeah, my recommendation was to take that out and that is, that, that would, then you would still be governed by the conflict of interest rules and also the if you can’t be objective you have to recuse yourself. You still have all of that but this is not really a Plan Commission concept. It was put in there because that’s the law about BZA and I feel, I feel like that when that was done that was probably an error is what I think and I’ve just never seen it anywhere else. Davis What’s the process of removing it? Taylor Under the proposed rules, it’s being deleted. So the suggestion – Davis Is it effective tonight? Dale No, we haven’t adopted these. Taylor You’re going to have to wait just a little longer to think about it. You can talk to me though. You can talk to me. Yeah, it’s a really bad idea. It’s been there a long time. Franz Yeah. But, again, you don’t have to talk to anybody. Just remember that. You don’t have to – Taylor You don’t have to talk to anyone. Grabianowski Well when your neighbor comes down and wants to talk to you about a proposal in your neighborhood you’re probably going to talk to them. Franz Yeah. Grabianowski Just sayin. Fedor Or, or, or they walk into your store and, and you’re at the counter and you really have to – Hurst I’m just gonna give them all your guys’ cell phone numbers. Call Josh, call Mary. Dale All right, we changed the, corrected the noticing language actually allowing or requiring 14 calendar days prior notice. The statute calls for 10, right? But we’re gonna be a little more demanding and require 14 days public notice. Taylor And that’s something the public raised on more than one occasion saying if I’m gone and I get back and I don’t get that notice until Friday, how can I prepare for Page 30 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Monday and it just, so even though 10 days is statute, that’s something that the public has suggested and, and, again, it gives them a little more time to prepare. Franz Yeah. Dale And then also changing the amount of time given to petitioners to present their projects from 10, from 15 to 10 minutes. Unless you were to grant, expressly grant more time to a petitioner. Franz Well and I think the petitioner now, especially with the staff report is doing most of the discussion and the petitioner may kinda at times they just come up – staff did a great job, I’ve got a few things to add or they say I’ve got nothing to add so I’m okay with that change. Fedor And, and on the bigger ones, like you said, we can always add time. If we, if we walk in and we’ve got a crowded room you know it’s going to be a long, we’re gonna give you 20 minutes, the other side is going to get 20 as well or – Dale Uh huh. Hurst There were a couple of language things in there I won’t bore you. I already emailed them to Roger today. Dale Okay, thank you very much. Electronic meeting policy – there’s reference to that in this, in these rules. Resolution 2021-01. Did that come about because of COVID? Taylor Yeah. Franz Yeah. Dale Okay and was that, was that act, I guess it was an act of the state that provided for or required some, some local rules to accommodate electronic participation? Is that still appropriate to keep that? Was there any time, sunsetting on that act? Taylor Well originally it was an Executive Order – Dale Okay. Taylor And then the legislature came back after the pandemic and said we’re going to let you continue to allow remote participation under certain circumstances, the chief circumstance under which is that a quorum must be physically present – Dale Uh huh. Taylor If a quorum is physically present then not only can your other members participate remotely but they can vote. As long as they can be seen and heard, they can vote. That was really a new thing. Prior to the pandemic there was no such thing allowed. They could listen to a meeting or watch it but they couldn’t say anything or vote. So the, I’ll check the rule to make sure that we’re compliant with that but that’s what happened – Page 31 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Dale Uh huh. Taylor The state legislature changed that to say we’re not going to get rid of that entirely but there are going to be some conditions and then there are limitations how many meetings a member can do that – Dale Uh huh. Taylor And how many consecutive meetings, it’s all statutory, and we’ll make sure that this language ___. 1:03:36 Franz And I think given today’s technology, I, I think it’s easily accommodated by, I mean, some of us have taken advantage of it. As a matter of fact next month because we’re having a special meeting, I’m not going to be around so I’ll be doing it remote also. Dale So the rules refer to that resolution – Taylor You should just put it right in there. Dale As Addendum A – Franz So should he just incorporate the actual language? Taylor That’s what I would suggest, yeah, we’ve put it right in there. Dale Not as an addendum but – Taylor Yeah, that’s what I would do, yeah. Put, put our, put our rule right in there which complies and then it’s transparent and the public can see – Dale Okay. Taylor What our rules are. The rules aren’t just for us, although primarily for us, but I mean, it’s just good to be transparent about that I believe. Dale Add it directly into the rules? Taylor That’s what I would say, yeah. Dale Okay. There’s no reason why it needs to be separate. All right, so I think Nick, it’s very close, I, I don’t know what else. There’s probably a few little formatting things but like, like there’s some highlighted strikeouts still in here so it’s, it’s not perfected but it’s very close. So I think that, unless I hear otherwise, for next month we’ll, we’ll present a final draft, final form. Hurst I think there was a question in there about whether or not we should give the President or the Chair or whatever we call Mr. Franz – Dale Oh, that’s right – Page 32 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Hurst So do you want to speak on that real quick? Dale Umm – the question is should the rules include language allowing the President to set an alternate date or to cancel the meeting. Grabianowski Like if we have a blizzard or something? Taylor Right, yeah, under – this is merely a what if something really bad happens, you can’t – who decides and so most Rules of Procedure have this kind of a – Dale Uh huh. Taylor A rule. That’s why you pay Dave the big money, right, to be – Franz I get a, I get a nickel more a month than all of you. Taylor And it’s really, yeah it really, it really is a way if you have a snowstorm or if you, if we had another pandemic and there’s not an Executive Order yet how, in order to, no decision can be made without a majority of you convening and that’s not always possible. Franz Yeah. Taylor Or a tornado for example. Hurst Such language makes great sense for me if you would please suggest something that makes it easy to pass when we all next talk. Dale Okay. Franz Yeah. Dale There is one question on the Rules of Procedure and this came up recently. From time to time we receive a petition where the petitioner says wait a minute, I don’t want it to go to Plan Commission yet, we need to make some revisions, some changes so it hasn’t been advertised yet, it hasn’t been put on the agenda but it’s been sitting with us for months on end. We’re wondering if we could have a rule added that would allow staff to automatically close out that, that petition because it just goes on, on and on. They obviously weren’t ready to file, they filed anyway with us. Now we’re just kind of holding onto this petition, keeping it warm for months on end. Fedor If you pull it how long do they have to wait before they could refile? Dale They could refile anytime because it never went to hearing. Fedor How much time you want? Six months? Dale Sixty (60) days we’re thinking. Page 33 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Fedor Sixty (60)? Davis Do they have to pay another fee? Fedor If they haven’t got their act together – Dale Yes. Hurst Please just warn them at the front – Dale Yeah. Hurst You let this sit for too long you’re going to have to pay me again. Dale All right, so we’ll add that. Davis So it’s 60 days, is that what you said? Dale Yeah, is that all right or do you? Fedor Or do you want the? Davis What would be the fee – I apologize – Dale I’m sorry? Davis What’s the fee for that? Dale It varies on the petition. It could be a variance, it could be $350, $500 or it could be in the thousands depending on the scope of the, scale of the project. Franz So you have this happen quite a bit? Dale Not, on the big scale of things no – Franz Yeah. Dale Maybe 2 or 3% – Franz Okay. Dale Of the projects. Davis How many would you say you’re sitting on right now that would expire? Dale Oh, well, probably half a dozen. Davis What’s the reason they keep getting pushed? Is it something that, I just want to make sure we’re not, we don’t have any errors on our end as far as that there’s a constant stumbling block that somebody, that we don’t have something right or – Page 34 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Dale Well it’s not our fault. It’s that usually they’re trying to align something, their, they filed too early and they haven’t got all their ducks lined up. Davis Okay. Dale And so they’re trying to get their ducks lined up and they’re asking hold on we’re not ready, we’re not ready and so we just kept on holding onto these indefinitely. Davis Okay. Fedor This is for the BZA as well? Dale That’s right. Fedor Yeah. Dale Well this is the, we’re talking about Plan Commission rules right now. Fedor Okay – Dale Yeah. Fedor Okay. Just Plan Commission. I didn’t know if you were including the BZA on this? Dale We probably will have that conversation. Davis And I’m sure there’s plenty of guidelines and assistance given for – Dale It would give staff the ability to, to close it out. There probably, there may well be extenuating circumstances that we understand but we’re talking about those projects where there’s just no activity. There’s just no action and we don’t know what to do with them. Fedor When you say 60 days, that’s from the day they write, they’ve come in the office and write a check, correct? Dale That’s, that’s when they filed. Fedor Okay. From their file date? Franz It’s not guaranteed you’re going to terminate it. Dale No. Franz It’s just if you feel like they’re not acting in good faith essentially so. Dale Uh huh. Fedor Because I’m thinking about the second continuance tonight. That’s probably, I think they had to hold off because of the BZA last month – Page 35 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Dale Uh huh, right. Fedor Which would put them there at that 60 days which is understandable but I don’t, I just don’t want to have someone is like oh well now you fall under this and you gotta refile. Dale We’ll draft some language if you’re conceptually onboard with that idea and we’ll finetune the thinking on that. Davis Okay. Yeah, maybe run a couple scenario, like that where, you know, it was at BZA and it was, you know, I don’t know – I would, I would just hate for them to have to meet something somewhere else and it, it fall off or. Franz But yeah, but I think the BZA that’s viewed as moving forward so – Fedor Uh huh. Franz I think it’s just kinda like if there’s nothing going on. Fedor I, I can just think in the past of several that you guys we’ve got as far as getting a staff report and then they pull or they, they withdraw. That wastes so much time and energy on our staff’s part but as well as the petitioner and everybody involved. If they know they’re not getting there, just you’re not getting there and so. Dale Okay and then anything else on the, on the rules? And then lastly, the calendar. Every year you approve the calendar. We’ve sent you a draft of the calendar. We want to say it’s not quite the final version until the Town Council adopts their holiday schedule. We don’t know when their holidays are going to necessarily fall next year so we, we follow the same format and same template that we do every year. There’s generally a, it’s about, it’s about a six-week process from filing on average to the hearing. That involves deadlines for filing petitions to allow staff to distribute materials to the departments, provide plan review comments to the petitioner, provide proper public notice of hearings, allows the petitioner to make and submit revisions and for staff report preparation. All of that occurs within that six, six-week timeframe. So that’s in front of you. I think that there’s a, a motion to approve the calendar subject to any town, any future revisions by Town Council. Franz So let me ask a question and it’s not going to happen this year – Dale Yeah – Franz But there have been years where we’ve had an early Thanksgiving – Dale Uh huh. Franz And so we have a Monday meeting the week of Thanksgiving – Dale Uh huh. Page 36 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Franz And I believe it’s happened a Monday meeting the week, it couldn’t happen on Christmas could it? Yeah it could if it’s the 20th. So we’ve had those every now and then. Is that, when those come up is that something you can modify at that time or is it, or are we kind of, do we have to modify our rules to state that in the event that the meeting falls on the week of Thanksgiving or December it’s moved to the prior week. Dale It’s modifiable but we have to provide public notice. Franz Right. Dale Right now we send this calendar to all the media so that we don’t have to keep on notifying them every month of, of a hearing. So we just have to make sure they have a record. Franz So when that year, in that, in the years that happens we just deal with it at that time. Dale Yeah, we need to provide special notice to the newspapers and let them know – Franz Okay. Dale There’s been a change. Franz All right, so we need a motion to accept the calendar. Fedor I move to accept the 2025 Zionsville Plan Commission deadline meeting date calendar subject to Town Council’s final approval of – Franz Yeah, holiday schedule. Fedor Holiday schedule. Franz Is there a second? Grabianowski Second. Franz Any further discussion? All in favor signify by aye. All Aye. Franz Opposed by nay. [No response] The calendar is approved. Do we need to make a motion for the October 28th meeting? Dale Oh, thank you, yes – Franz The special meeting? Page 37 of 38 Zionsville Plan Commission September 16, 2024 Dale There’s a few things on the very top of the agenda that we kinda skipped over. There’s the August monthly report that is available to you, that link. We are, at this point, planning on two Plan Commission meetings next month, the regular meeting on October 21st and a second meeting a week later Monday, October 28th. So we will be providing public notice of that additional meeting for the 28th and that’s it. Franz Does that take a motion? Taylor I think you should have a motion. Franz Okay. Is there a motion to have a special meeting on the 28th of October? Grabianowski I move that that we have a special meeting on the 28th of October. Franz Is there a second? Fedor Second. Franz All in favor signify by aye. All Aye. Franz Opposed by nay. [No response] Taylor I think you should just state for the record that Davis arrived – Franz Okay. Dale Yeah, thank you. Taylor At 6:45. Franz Yep. And, for the record, Kendrick Davis arrived at 6:45 so. You kinda snuck in on us there. I didn’t notice. All right, anything else? Grabianowski I move we adjourn. Franz Is there a second? Davis Second. Franz All in favor? All Aye. Page 38 of 38