Police, Judicial, Legal Committee

TOWN OF MOUNT PLEASANT, SOUTH CAROLINA POLICE, JUDICIAL & LEGAL COMMITTEE Thursday, June 29, 2017 Municipal Complex, Building A, Public Meeting Room 1 Minutes Members Present: Mayor Linda Page, Chair, Mark Smith, Bob Brimmer, Elton Carrier Staff Present: Eric DeMoura, Levica Kirvin, Chief Ritchie Also Present: David Pagliarini, Corporation Counsel Mayor Page called the meeting to order at 11:29am. 1. Approval of Minutes from the June 5, 2017 meeting Mayor Page asked that the minutes from June 5, 2017 meeting be approved. Mr. Smith made the motion for approval; seconded by Mr. Brimmer. Motion carried unanimously. 2. Public Comments Mr. Cunnane of Mount Pleasant stated he has seen some of the back and forth about the ethics proposal and believes it is a good idea in theory and the basic concept of it being voluntary he says why bother because if you are corrupt you are not going to sign it. He added he would rather see it mandatory and secondly, he will simplify it even more and say there should not be any requirement put on any employee of the Town that does not apply to political levels. He added this will simplify it and it could be put in the form of a longer ordinance. Mr. Cunnane stated that if you are the police or the person picking up the trash you have the same regulations as the mayor. 3. Police matters  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 2 a. Approval of memorandum of understanding with the United States Secret Service Chief Ritchie stated that what we have before the committee this morning is a memorandum of understanding between the police department and the secret service with the purpose of our investigator with our department to work with the Secret Service and the Electronic Crimes Taskforce and will allow our officers to work on the Cybercrime that is occurring in our jurisdiction. Chief Ritchie stated that with the approval of this memorandum the department’s detective will receive extra training, access to other equipment and in addition any overtime will be reimbursed up to $15,000 when applied for. Chief Ritchie stated he would ask this committee to approve the department going forward with this agreement. Mayor Page stated she thought it sounded like a great plan and she has heard if you have not had a cyber-attack affect you yet that it is just a matter of time. She asked the Committee if there were any thoughts or comments. Mr. Smith moved to approve the Memorandum of Understanding with the United States Secret Service and send it to full council. Mr. Carrier seconded the motion. All present were in favor. 4. Judicial matters No agenda items 5. Legal matters a. Approval of policy regarding request for public records under the Freedom of Information Act Mr. Pagliarini stated that the committee was provided with not only the proposed policy but a summary sent out by the Municipal Association of the  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 3 basic changes to our FOIA laws. Committee may be aware that the FOIA request numbers have increased significantly not only for police but planning and fire, and requests go to the various departments as well. He added that the legal department spends a significant amount of time on FOIA and in his opinion the Town has a better response then most government entities. Mr. Pagliarini stated that we do things the right way and this is the next step to continuing on that path while meeting all requirements. Mr. Pagliarini stated that in general these new amendments to our state FOIA laws are designed to provide citizens a little more certainty in the process as the response time goes from 15 days to 10 days initially but on the back end we are allowed a little more time to respond. He added as you can imagine we get a fair number of electronic information and he would hate to see how many the committee gets in their prospective accounts on a given day. Mr. Pagliarini said there are millions of electronic communications. Mr. Pagliarini stated that the other area is the certainty on the fees. Government entities are permitted to charge fees and we are required to adopt a fee schedule. He stated that information is included as well as some additional exceptions which would apply mainly to police investigations and records. Mr. Pagliarini said finally there are some procedural changes that, if citizens feel they are not getting the information they believe exists, allows them to have an expedited hearing to determine whether those documents exist. Mr. Pagliarini stated that was the summary of the changes. He said our policy is really verbatim as we have adopted all that is required under state law, but he would point the committee’s attention to the fee schedule. One of the fees is that when people make a request, often times the person in the department is charged with locating the documents and that person could be making $10.00 an hour or $30.00. He said you can imagine if we  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 4 were to take the old laws and exercise them in a fair manor it would be an extraordinary amount for a citizen to pay so this gives it some certainty. He added researching this information with Marcy Cotov indicates that the minimum amount for a qualified person is $10.00 an hour so that is how the figure per copy was ascertained. He added that the Town was required to have a per page and require a deposit of 5% of the estimated costs that relates to many of the marketing firms for a significant number of documents to aid their market research and often he estimates that could take from 10, 20 to 30 hours a time. Sometimes when the requesting entity is told the amount to be paid, they decline to pay, which leaves us at a disadvantage. Mr. Pagliarini stated we are not here to dissuade anyone from asking but that is probably something they do not want to get involved in is making the payment. Mr. Pagliarini then opened the floor to any questions or comments. Mayor Page stated that her whole goal as an elected official is to be open and transparent and that the information is available to citizens about the actions that we take on a minute by minute basis but at the same time she realizes how burdened Legal has been lately. She said she is sad to hear of people using this for research and added she feels this is fair and approves the Municipal Associations changes. Mr. Smith stated that his question is for Mr. DeMoura or Ms. Cotov as he understands completely the rationale and he agrees with the deposit issue but he is concerned about the tracking issue and the spirit in which the deposit is being made could then become cumbersome and burdensome from a tracking perspective. Mr. Smith stated that he would like to hear from them that they are comfortable on that part of it. Mr. DeMoura stated that he did feel comfortable.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 5 Ms. Cotov stated currently we do require a deposit and have not had any problems. Mr. Brimmer stated that he did not recall seeing on the fee schedule anything that would provide relief from the fees or circumstances for people who are not able to pay the fee and asked if there was a mechanism in place for people to get the information if they need an exception. Mr. Pagliarini stated that there was in the State statute if it is determined to be in the public interest. He said the point is well taken because the we get into a situation where who gets it and who does not and that is the idea behind uniformity. Mr. Pagliarini stated that more people are going to end up paying as he can say that now in most circumstances when we have provided the documents and there are no copies so there is no charge involved it is bases on the complexity level but there is a provision if you are administration those can be waived and a good example is the press as there is on any press request a statement that says this is for the public benefit and we asked the fee be waived and that is at the discretion of our administration. Mr. Brimmer stated so that individuals without resources can make their case and ask for an exception. Mr. Pagliarini stated that they would be able to. Mr. Carrier stated that as a follow up would the whole amount be collected before we release the documents. Mr. Pagliarini stated that no because state law is clarifying that now the Town can charge up to 25% of the estimated cost and the rest would be paid upon pickup before the documents are issued.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 6 Mr. Pagliarini stated to clarify on the fee schedule that the minimum charge was discussed yesterday as to when it applies and he added that the Town does not charge anyone for making a request or providing a simple document response that is if research needs to be done the Town will at least have that minimum amount. He added that this was something for the committee to consider and that it was at their discretion and he noted on the copy charge that Ms. Cotov did a very good job at searching for other entities and the standard is a prevailing rate and the intent is for it to be as low for citizens as possible. He added that government entities anywhere from .10 to .40 and .25 is what everyone in the government arena seems to charge. Mayor Page thanked Mr. Pagliarini and stated that the only question she had was if there were no information available would there be a minimum charge. Mr. Pagliarini stated that one example last week there was one for voting which he does not have those records so he provided the response letter with no charge but if a search is required to determine if those records were available then there would be a charge and that would be prudent to do. Mayor Page asked what the committee chose to do at this time. Mr. Carrier moved to recommend to full council the revised FOIA policy of the Town. Mr. Smith seconded the motion. All present were in favor. Mr. Pagliarini stated there would be a public hearing on this as well since there were fees involved and the hearing would be at the July Council meeting. b. Continued discussion of ethics policy governing elected and appointed officials  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 7 Mayor Page stated that last time this committee had some questions about the final drafted document which she had not seen but now has had a chance to review. She added she is all for ethics in elected officials and code of conduct in life. Mayor Page stated she has some concerns and there are still some things she would red line and narrow down. She said the challenge for her is that she serves with duly honorable and elected officials in many capacities throughout the Town and County and State level and she thinks the Town is covered already. She added that there are ethics in the state and we have rules of order so there are already things in place. She added she tends to believe in “less is more” government with less restriction and more action. Mr. Carrier asked if email is covered under this document and was it a general statement as he noticed under the conduct part it does not specifically refer to the written word, but does talk about not demeaning people and all that which he has never seen happen here. Mr. Pagliarini stated that the way he has read it he believes it applies to all conduct whether it be in or outside meetings and he feels we are in an age now that prevalence of emails over the last couple of years you will see it mentioned less in documents as it is simply another conversation but obviously, this is what has been produced and it can be approved, denied or amend any way the committee wishes. He added that if that is something that is important to the committee and ultimately council then it should be added. Mayor Page stated that was a good point as she did not see social media listed anywhere either. She said she is criticized over just about everything on social media because she is the mayor, but thinks that is just how that is. Mr. Brimmer stated that he does not do social media but was also wondering if this extends to social media as the way it is written now was that the intention to extend it to that as well.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 8 Mr. Pagliarini stated that his reading of it was exactly that and it was general conduct but certainly if that specifies is warranted it would be simple to correct. Mr. Brimmer stated that he was having some difficulty with the sanctions part of the document as if he reads it correctly if sanctions are applied to council members that is kept private but if sanctions are applied to commission members that is done in a public meeting. Mr. Pagliarini asked Mr. Brimmer to keep in mind that there is a Town ordinance that Council does have the existing authority to remove those members so again he thinks that is a warranted difference in the treatment of those appointed members and feels that it is appropriate and you can have that difference whether you would like to have difference is a very good question. Mr. Brimmer stated that his concern is why are we keeping sanctions private of council members if there is activity going on and it is trying to be resolved privately but is raised to the point of a sanction would it serve the Town to keep that private as it sounds like the State Legislature who has ethics violations and they do not make it public until later. He added he has concerns that there are double standards in treating one differently than the other for the same type of behavior. Mr. Smith stated that it is questions that continue to come up like what was just brought up that are of his concern as the FOIA emails are there and it was mentioned that they were being called out on social media and certainly on the email responses and one in particular that he was singled out on so he is trying to be very respectful and not reactive which is the typical two choice response any human being has when they are hooked on fight or flight and he is trying not to choose flight so it be preserved as admission of any guilt as there is absolutely zero. He added he likes the spirit in which he has said before, generally believes this comes from and it  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 9 feels like what was talked about earlier as it relates to heavy regulations that strangulate processes. Mr. Smith stated that there are ethics laws in place and in his private company he has a code of conduct that is part of the hiring process that is tied directly to the core values and mission statement and he fully buys into the spirit in which he believes this originated and is trying to accomplish but is struggling with the minuteness and some of the issues that are in there and he will stop at that point but he is still open. Mayor Page stated that she is also but she feels it gets arduous and she really has tried to read it and say let us all just be nice to each other and if we are not nice to each other let us call each other out. Mr. Smith stated that the problem with that is conflict in general and not to single anyone out as again the reality is when there is conflict there are people who are conflict avoidant and there are people who are comfortable with conflict and life is not always about 100% getting along and 100% agreeing on everything. Mr. Smith stated that he would say come on guys, really? Let us just get along and move forward with healthy, respectful debate as it is good and our country was founded on that and just because he thinks Mr. Carrier’s is crazy for a position he takes on an issue does not mean he is crazy it just means he is taking a different position on an issue but often times we tend to make so much more out of something than it really is for whatever reason and he is trying hard not to let that happen. Mayor Page asked Mr. DeMoura or Mr. Pagliarini if either of them had the ability to pull up the oath of office that they take when they are sworn in as Mayor and council members. She added the reason she asks is that they are all sworn in and the judges are sworn in and she was asked once about the swearing in process and that person was not happy about a word not being in there and she said at the time she did not take it further but she should  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 10 have asked how the Town came up with the oath of office and where was it created. Mr. Pagliarini stated that it comes from the SC constitution and for the record it is in Section 30.05. It reads: Before entering on the duties of their respective offices the Mayor and Council Members shall take the following oath: I do solemnly swear that I am duly qualified according to the constitution of this State to exercise the duties of the office to which I have been elected and that I will to the best of my abilities discharge the duties thereof and preserve and protect and defend the constitution of this State and of the United States so help me God and as Mayor or Council Member of the Town I will equally, fairly and impartially to the best of my ability instill and exercise the trust imposed in me and use my best endeavors to preserve the peace and carry into effect according to law the purposes for which I have been elected so help me God. Mayor Page stated the reason she wanted it read was because this comes from our own State constitution and it is a solemn vow that we are going to do right to the best of our ability. She added that she does not have anything else but would open it up to the floor. Mr. Jim Owens of 1197 Island View Drive, Mt. Pleasant stated that the one point that is missing here as a committee is policy. He added they are policy makers and currently there is no policy governing as far as code of conduct is concerned. Mr. Owens stated that where this comes from is much like what was just addressed that it comes from the spirit of cooperation and there is nothing antagonistic about it and one of the things that Mr. Cunnane brought up was that it is a voluntary process so it is encouraging those who on Council to participate in something that there is no policy for yet are responsible for those who do have that policy and he personally would not ask one of his employees to be subjected to something that he would not do himself.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 11 Mr. Owens stated that all of this needs to be taken into consideration and again it is a voluntary effort and if you chose not then that is your choice but this is another level of reassurance for the electorate to realize that they are willing to go to whatever lengths necessary to be above reproach and lead by example and not govern from behind and that is the purpose of the document. He added that it is not to bring about any antagonistic views or subject anyone to any ridicule. Mr. Gary Santos of 1690 Greystone Blvd., Mt. Pleasant stated that he felt Mr. Owens hit the nail on the head and to answer Mr. Brimmer’s comment the reason the wording was put in there is that you do not want to make an accusation about somebody in public and after investigation find out that it is not true so it would eventually become public but we wanted to try to protect everyone as best as possible so it does not get out there and be not true. He added that this document has been around for about two months now and has been whittled down from 6 pages to 3 and as far as he knows only he and Mr. Owens who have sent any changes in and there was a situation recently where one of the planning commission members went to the Senior Center and was pushing the single member districts by meeting with citizens and trying to get them to sign a petition. He added when you look at that you have an appointed commission member who is out trying to do something in one of the Town’s public buildings and to him that should be looked at as to whether he/she stepped over the line. Mr. Santos stated that he would not say the name at this time until all the facts are collected but that is what has been reported to him. He added that there are issues because they have not signed the document and had they signed there would be an avenue to be able to say you signed this that you would conduct yourself properly and you are in violation of this. Mr. Santos stated that the key is that there are things that are going on and it does not just have to be people being mean to each other but he feels this code of conduct and ethics policy will address and will give them the opportunity to address those and say you have signed this so now you  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 12 violated it and then there is an opportunity to say thank you for your work you are no longer needed or whatever is decided to do but that right now there is nothing that can be done to address the situation. He added it probably could be talked about in executive session but have a code of conduct and ethics policy at least puts it out there in black and white and they know exactly what is expected of them and it is not an assumption. Mr. Santos stated he feels it is a good policy and it is voluntary if you do not want to sign it fine if you do that is fine as well as he plans on signing it and putting it on the agenda for the next Council meeting and everyone can say what they want to say but he hopes they will sign it and move on. Mr. Brimmer stated that he was curious if someone decided not to sign it are they then held to the processes that are in the document. Mr. Santos stated that they would not if they do not sign it but they can be sanctioned but they would also answer to the public. He added when the public finds out that certain people are not signing the code of conduct or an ethics policy it is up to them to make their decisions on whether to elect them to represent them. He stated if they are afraid to sign a code of conduct policy especially one that has been watered down it will be up to the public but at least the ones who sign are saying I feel we need to be above reproach with the way we treat staff and the way we conduct ourselves so he is willing to sign and feels it is up to the citizens to make the decision whether they want that person to represent them. Mayor Page stated that Mr. Santos brought up a good point about an alleged incident that happened but to further her concerns with the code of conduct so regarding boarding commission members, counselling, verbal reprimands and written warnings may be administered by the Mayor to the board, commission or committee member failing to comply with Town policy.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 13 Mayor Page stated it is state law, so if she is out collecting signatures for any type of petition she should be allowed to go to any public place to collect those unless it is a polling place where a minimum distance from the door must be kept. Mr. Pagliarini stated there were specific limitations. Mayor Page stated the limitations were on polling and election sites but other than that the Senior Center is a public place. She said she thought a legal opinion might need to be sought. Mr. Pagliarini stated that the policy requires that action is initiated to determine whether there is some sort of violation. Mayor Page stated that the first thing she would have to figure out is if it is against town policy for someone to go to the Senior Center and seek signatures on a petition. Mr. Santos stated that this is an appointed official as well and not just anybody. Mayor Page stated that she does not think appointed officials take an oath. She added it makes it harder for her because she could just write a letter telling the appointed officials how she would like them to vote. Mayor Page said she is not like that, but she would like to know what the law is how appointees are held accountable to law and ordinance not perception. She said she has not heard any resolution to her concerns. Mr. Will Haynie, 316 Mallard Court, Mount Pleasant stated that he understands the spirit of this and he is on board but has a problem with some of the details and he feels one of the things that calls upon everyone to work collaboratively and he would ask the main sponsors of this that we not run and say you sign it now or you do not believe in ethics. He added  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 14 can we continue to work collaboratively as it says to get to something that everyone can adhere to. Mr. Haynie stated that a couple problems with this is that he was just deposed a month or so ago and the opposing attorney was asking him the motive behind some of his votes and unrelated issues and the Town attorney stepped in and State Law prohibits any elected official from having to give any reason for their vote. He added you cannot be asked that question under oath and as he reads the policy in Section 5 other council members could cast a cloud on you or your ethics and go to the Mayor and ask you to account for your mindset at the time that you voted and that cannot be done under the law. He added if you look in this week’s Moultrie News there a letter to the editor accusing him as saying his motive for voting certain ways is his allegiance to certain other people. Mr. Haynie stated that even state law says that you get elected you go vote and you do not have to tell anyone why you voted that way. He added someone could say because you are in this industry and all your friends and you can pick any industry that any of them represent in that room and continually bring you up on quote ethics charges when you really have no financial conflict of interest and they could do it and cast a cloud over you for politic reason and he feels that needs to be addressed and that is particularly in section 5. Mr. Haynie stated that the other right that we have if you say social media or anything else is that you can say in public whatever you want to say in the Country you have that right and he is not going to sign something that takes away his first amendment right because someone may get their feelings hurt by what he says but he has been a member of the print media and the broadcast media and has never been sued for liable and has never been taken into court for saying something that was libelous or not factually based but you can express your opinion and you can say Councilman Haynie’s vote on this is terrible you have a right to do that.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 15 Mr. Hayne stated he does not think that he should be signing something to give away the rights that he specifically to an oath to uphold for our citizens. He added that if it can be gotten down to specific things that are ethics violations and not differences in judgement or opinion he feels they can come up with something that everyone would sign. Mayor Page stated that Mr. Haynie brings it right back to the point that is already covered under the State ethics law. Mr. Brimmer stated that as we start talking about state reprimands and sanctions are we getting into personnel issues. Mr. Pagliarini stated that the issue strictly from a legal point we want to make sure that this does not conflict with any other laws and so it is impossible to always predict what may or may not be a conflict so we try to cure that by saying that to the extent that this conflicts with any other state law or provisions it is not applicable so the question that legal has to analysis has so many potential not just H.R. issues but potential other issues that may conflict so the way he envisions this happening if something is brought and there is an investigation into the behavior to his way of thinking it is part of the process to say this is not applicable under this ordinance or under this policy because it falls under some other provision. Mr. Brimmer stated that we all draw a check from the Town of Mount Pleasant and the commissioners do not and we are trying to apply the same standards to both classes and he thinks legally we may be wading into some water here that could be challenge. Mr. Brimmer stated that another concern that he has is that he does not see anything in here about an appeal process. He added that just because an allegation has been made and the Mayor is looking into it does the person have any rights or due process right to appeal. Mr. Pagliarini stated that he would answer that question with stating that is a good point and something that legal has thought about but he stated to  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 16 remember everything defaults to Robert’s Rules and we can republish a lot of that and make these 30 pages and that is overboard. He added that this can be approved, not approved or added to subtracted from if that is a provision that is important to be put in but he feels Robert’s Rules has a provision for that. Mr. Cunnane stated that he would like to reiterate his point that less is more and why not have what the Town already applies to employees to the Town’s political levels. He added that he had two antidotes, the first was that the train industry was asked to do drug testing for everyone on the train after an accident then the President went to congress and said I will be number one on line with 535 people serving congress should go behind him and then his entire membership will do so as well, that is the kind of standard that should be looked for, no double standard, no one is better. Mr. Cunnane stated if the Town has already invested in policies for employees why not the same thing at political levels it will not be voluntary with the exception you cannot be terminated as that is the job of the public to do with elected officials. Mr. Cunnane stated that there was a big rush across the state after the Scott tragedy where a cop did the wrong thing, Mount Pleasant was very proud to be one of the first places to put cameras on police but most of the things police do there tends to be witnesses out on the street but a lot of things politicians do nobody ever sees. He added that he suggests put the cameras on the politicians when they are out and they everyone would know and this may be extreme but the principal that he is trying to get at you are not better just because you are elected to something. He added that any employee in the building should be treated the same. Mayor Page stated that she said at a meeting she attended yesterday that she wished everyone could shadow her for one day.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 17 Mr. Haynie stated that he has an application questions as he is trying to figure out the section that talks about how they must compromise and asked if you are in a Council session and you make a motion and I ask you to amend your motion and you refuse to do it does he have grounds to report you to the Mayor and say all I was looking for was a little compromise and you would not amend your motions so you are in violation of the spirit of our ethics. Mr. Haynie stated that the compromise was in section 3,4 or 5 as could read it or beat someone over the head with it but you could say compromise means you will never vote no on anything but everybody would get half a loaf. He added he does not think there is any of them that is an elected official that does not have something that we are absolutely against and he is trying to make sure that if you sign something like this or the wording stays the way it is that you have not right to say I am totally against that and this is not what he ran for public office to do. He added that then you can get sanctioned by your fellow members because you did not compromise. Mayor Page stated that she feels she has beleaguered this quite enough. Ms. Pat Sullivan 1002 Plantation Court, Mt. Pleasant stated that something was said earlier about what you can do in a public area and it was mentioned that the Senior Center is considered a public area. Mayor Page stated it was determined to be a public place. Ms. Sullivan asked that any public place somebody with the Town or Commissions can go in and sign petitions and there is nothing the Town says is wrong or the law says is wrong. Mayor Page stated that is what she was seeking clarification on. She said as Mayor she would have to administer the warning to that person and the first thing she would need to know is whether or not a law had been  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 18 violated regardless of the ethics policy. She said if not, then that to her is freedom of speech as it is a public space. Ms. Sullivan asked if we had gotten a legal answer on that. Mayor Page stated that it is a public place and you are allowed to seek signatures on petitions everywhere but close to a polling place. Ms. Sullivan asked if there were any kind of law or Town guideline that prevents a planning commission member or BOZA member to speak with the press. Mayor Page stated absolutely not. She said there are four people on this committee, and she does not believe all of the members have any intention of wanting to sign this document as presented. She said there are two members that want to move it to Council, which is their right, and the conversation would continue at the Council Meeting. Mayor Page stated that her point was this and as she applauds Mr. Owens and Mr. Santos and knows they have worked tirelessly on this and she is proud of them both for wanting to stand up and hold themselves to a higher standard than everyone else but the challenge is that she is just not there yet but at this point something needs to change. Mr. Owens stated that he wanted to ask Mr. Pagliarini if this is the final draft of this policy. Mr. Pagliarini stated that with any policy this committee has the ability to approve or deny and anyone can bring it up to Council and at this point any Council Member has the right until it is finally voted on to have any changes made. Mr. Owens stated that this policy originally went out a couple of months ago, and to his knowledge only a couple of council members who edited and returned it back to legal and his point is before something gets shut down  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 19 has it been given the consideration that everyone can put their arms around. Mr. Owens stated that when you talk about circumstances relative to Social Media he does not believe anything in the document talks about Social Media and he does not see there is anything that can be done a blog or whatever to stop the public from discussing anything so he does not feel that was the intent at all and believes that is something legal will have to look at to make that determination. Mr. Owens stated that he was not for trying to censor people who are on Social Media that is not his intent. Mayor Page stated that unfortunately that brings up another issue for her because a code of conduct that she would expect from anyone serving under her is that they are prepared and that they have reviewed every document and read every minute not only of the committee and council meetings but of every board and every committee that meets. She added that they are arduous but she reads them. She said the point is she and Mr. Brimmer at the first committee meeting were given a very long document, and she has not seen this shorter version until now. She added that she believes everyone has had a chance to see it and review it and she saw no changes come through and no one has made any efforts to make any changes. What she has heard continually is we think we are covered and she appreciates the efforts. Mayor Page stated that this committee could send it to full council without any recommendation which she feels is where they are currently. Mr. Santos stated he wanted to make the point that they have been working on this policy for two months and the attorneys have been working as well and he did not hear Mr. Pagliarini say anything that was wrong with the policy. He added he has heard people with their ideas and what they think but nobody has submitted it to Legal.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 20 Mr. Santos stated that they have not done it and he feels we are covered by referring to Robert’s Rule of Order or State Law which covers pretty much everything that comes along with it. He added the document has been shrunk down to 3 pages from 6 and a lot has been cut out and nobody else seems to care so the point is if nobody cared that everyone should be okay with it. Mr. Santos stated that the stuff he is hearing now should have been brought to the attorney like they asked and do like he and Mr. Owen did and go thru it, red line whatever is wrong and give it back to him to redo but nobody has done that so he assumed no one had an issue with it until he is hearing this now. Mr. Santos stated that they have tried their best and have given extra time for people to respond and no one responded so he apologized but thought everyone was okay with it. Mayor Page stated she believes assumptions lead us down this path and she believes we are covered by Robert’s Rule of Order and a code of ethics. She added if she were going to red line it unfortunately she would red line the whole thing which means she would not vote for it and not sign it. She added she is being very honest and open and feels she has tried but she will be voting no at the committee level and at Council. Mayor Page said she is willing to listen to the desire of the committee. Mr. Carrier stated he felt they were determined to bring the policy to council so he would send it to Council without a recommendation from this committee. Mr. Carrier moved to send the policy to full Council with no recommendation from committee. Motion failed for lack of a second.  Police, Judicial & Legal Committee Minutes June 29, 2017 21 Mayor Page stated that this committee has spoken and this will probably be seen again at Council. She thanked everyone for their hard work on this. 6. Adjourn There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned at 12:22pm. Minutes submitted by: Lori Gaskin 06/29/2017