Board of Zoning Appeals (BZA)

Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 In Attendance: Kathi Postlewait, Steve Mundy, Josh Fedor, Jim Hurst, Jocelyn Hinshaw Staff attending: Mike Dale, Jonathan Smith, Dan Taylor, attorney Postlethwait Okay, welcome all. I’ll call this meeting to order, the October meeting of the Board of Zoning Appeals and if we can stand please and we’ll recite the Pledge of Allegiance. All Pledge of Allegiance Postlethwait Thank you all and Mr. Dale, if you will take the roll please? Dale Kathi Postlethwait? Postlethwait Present. Dale Josh Fedor? Fedor Present. Dale Jocelyn Hinshaw? Hinshaw Present? Dale Steve Mundy? Mundy Present. Dale Jim Hurst? Hurst Present. Dale All present. Postlethwait Great. So we have a quorum and we are all here this evening. I’m hopeful that you’ve all had a chance to look at the minutes from our last meeting, September 4th meeting. Are there any additions or corrections to the minutes? Anyone? Do I have a motion to approve as written? Fedor So moved. Postlethwait Thank you Mr. Fedor. Is there a second? Mundy Second. Postlethwait Thank you Mr. Mundy. We have a motion to approve the minutes as written are there? Do we need to take a roll call vote on this? Taylor No. Page 1 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Postlethwait No? Okay. All right, very good. Thank you. All in favor? All Aye. Postlethwait Thank you. No opposed. We have two petitions which are going to be well, let’s start with the petition that’s going to be continued and that is Petition Number 2024-35-DSV, Brant Hile. The petitioner has asked for this petition to be continued and as you may remember, this was continued at our last meeting so as a second continuance this is open to our discussion. Are there any thoughts about continuing this until the November meeting? Any opposition? Mundy I think it was, they did not have the petitioner present last time so it was a representative who really couldn’t answer some questions and I think, we may be waiting on that but I think they may still be gone. Postlethwait I think they’re traveling and I also think their attorney is not present so they’ve asked for us to continue to November. So – Hinshaw That would be more productive. Postlethwait Yeah. Any opposition? If not, then the Chair will be happy to hear a request, a motion to continue. Mundy I move that Petition 2024-35-DSV be continued to the November 3rd? Postlethwait 6th. Hurst 6th. Fedor 6th. Mundy 6th? November 6th meeting. Postlethwait Thank you Mr. Mundy. Is there a second? Hinshaw Second. Postlethwait Thank you Ms. Hinshaw. Any further discussion? All in favor signify by saying aye. All Aye. Postlethwait Any opposed? [No response] The motion is carried and this will be continued to our next meeting. Taylor You might say the motion is carried 5-0. Postlethwait The motion is carried 5-0. Thank you. Page 2 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 We have two petitions that are being withdrawn and as you may remember, our current rules do not allow a petition to be withdrawn after it’s been heard and both of these petitions have been heard, had a first hearing here at the BZA so we need to suspend our rules in order to allow these petitions to be withdrawn and I would, the Chair would be happy to hear a motion to suspend the rules. Mundy So moved. Postlethwait Thank you Mr. Mundy. Is there a second? Hurst Second. Postlethwait Thank you Mr. Hurst. Any discussion? All in favor say aye. All Aye. Postlethwait Any opposed? [No response] The motion to suspend the rules has been carried 5-0. The first petition to be continued or withdrawn is, just a moment here, Petition Number 2024-33-DSV. That’s RFPDI, LLC and the petitioner would like to withdraw. They are making some other changes and will no longer need the Development Standards Variance. Do I have a motion to withdraw, allow this petition to be withdrawn? Mundy Move to withdraw Petition 2024-33-DSV. Postlethwait Thank you Mr. Mundy. Is there a second? Hinshaw Second. Postlethwait Thank you Ms. Hinshaw. Any discussion? All in favor say aye. All Aye. Postlethwait Any opposed? [No response] Motion to withdraw is carried 5-0. The second petition which is, with a request to withdraw is Petition Number 2024-37-DSV, John and Jill Sima. Fedor Madam Chair? Postlethwait Yes? Fedor I’m going to recuse myself from voting on this one since I recused myself last time as well and I don’t see a point in me having to vote on it anyhow so. Page 3 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Postlethwait Let the record show that Mr. Fedor is recusing himself from this vote. Any discussion about this request to withdraw? Mundy I’m curious as to, it, it appeared from the, the letter we received that it had been resolved in a way that was satisfactory to the petitioner. I thought it was an interesting suggestion by the petitioner’s representative and it might be helpful for us to know – Postlethwait Surely. Mundy What that decision was. Postlethwait Mr. Smith, would you like to? Smith So, we can go in as deep as you want okay but I’ll give you the – Mundy The 30,000 foot – Smith Yes, the 30,000 foot view. Mundy Would be fine. Smith Traditionally speaking for us we’ve always looked at flag lots as being a problem and rightfully so because we were trying to determine the width of the lot and when you have a flag lot, the flagpole is the skinniest part and we would always make the width of the lot, the calculation, the width of the flagpole rather than the width of the flag. And we got into our Zoning Ordinance and long story short, identified where the setbacks did not apply. Our Zoning Code specifically says the minimum setback requirements are not applicable to flag lots. And there’s a whole trickledown effect from that but what that essentially allowed us to do was take the width of the lot not from the flagpole but from where they placed the building setback line which in most cases and which is the case for the, this, this petition, the building setback line is not in the flagpole it’s on the flag, the long width of the flag. And so using the definition of lot width which is in our Zoning Ordinance, we were able to get a new calculation for width which was the length of the flag and not the skinny part of the pole and when you use the width like that, you no longer need a variance for 3:1 depth-to-width ratio. Again, we can dive off into it as deep as you want. That is the, that is the two- minute summary of, and it’s a relatively new idea I will admit but Mike and I are going to work together, we can put together some sort of Director’s, determination what we call it. Hopefully it’ll be in writing and much easier to read than for me to explain to you here on a microphone in two minutes but that’s the solution we came to. We, we figured there had to be a way – you know, it’s an important question, right? If you’re asking somebody to get a variance for the width of their lot, you should be able to tell a person what the width of their lot is, right? And when you looked at a flag lot it was easy to argue that the width of your lot is not the length of the pole, not the width of the pole, it’s the width of the flag and we needed to find a way through our Zoning Ordinance to get to that point and I don’t necessarily think that I agree that we should be allowing flag Page 4 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 lots but using the text that we have in our Zoning Ordinance, that’s what we have. Mundy So this is likely to affect, I mean we see a number of these. It’s likely to affect many of them. Smith Uh, yes. Mundy We won’t see as many. Smith You won’t – Dale As far as the depth-to-width ratio variance, you’re correct. Smith You, you won’t, you’ll still see several depth-to-width ratio variances. What you’re not going to see is it in relation to flag lots. Mundy Yeah. Smith Oftentimes you’ve got a long, skinny parcel and they want to divide it right in the middle to make two skinny, long parcels, you’re still going to need 3:1 depth-to- width ratios for those but hopefully you won’t have to deal with flag lot calculations anymore because we have come to a decision that we can now measure the, the width based off the flag and not the pole. Does that make sense? Hinshaw Uh huh. Postlethwait Perfectly and – Hinshaw Yeah. Postlethwait And I’m very appreciative of that explanation. Thank you and also for the problem solving that will make this easier for people. Smith The great part is there’s nothing in that determination that we can’t quote from our current Zoning Ordinance. Postlethwait Right. Smith So everything that we have we can point to a, a specific section in the Zoning Code that’s currently adopted. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have made that decision but it’s on the books. Hinshaw Okay. Postlethwait Good. Mundy Thank you. Postlethwait Thank you. Further discussion about this request to withdraw? Then the Chair will entertain a motion to allow the withdrawal. Do we have a motion? Page 5 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Mundy I move that Petition 2024-37-DSV be withdrawn. Postlethwait Thank you Mr. Mundy. Is there a second? Hinshaw Second. Postlethwait Thank you Ms. Hinshaw. Any further discussion? All in favor say aye. All Aye. Postlethwait Any opposed? [No response] Motion is carried 5-0. Thank you. Taylor 4-0. Postlethwait Oh sorry, 4-0. That’s right, Mr. Fedor. Thank you very much for the correction. 4-0. I don’t know – Mr. Smith, I think I, I didn’t allow you to expound on the other withdrawal. Is there something else that we need to know about the previous withdrawal? Smith So the Rahal project – Postlethwait Right. Smith In general, when it came through Plan Commission, it came through as a PUD, a Planned Unit Development, and any deviations from the text that was adopted through that PUD you really have two options – you can get a variance or you can do a text amendment. They originally came through wanting to just get variances from the language they created in their PUD. Through a course of different actions, mainly the, the signs changing, and really changing at inconvenient times which were resulting in delayed BZA hearings and things like that, they decided to apply, which they’ve already done, for a, a text amendment which is similar to a rezoning that’s going to go through Plan Commission so our Plan Commission members who, y’all guys can look forward to seeing that. They’re going to be doing a text amendment change rather than a variance request and that’ll be coming through, I believe, in November, on the November Plan Commission agenda but as long as the text amendment is approved through Plan Commission, no need for a variance because they can, essentially what they’re going to do is update the text of their PUD to reflect, elevate the, the measurements in their sign elevations and so if you do that you don’t need a variance so. Postlethwait Good. Thank you Mr. Smith. Smith You’re welcome. Page 6 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Postlethwait Okay, the next item on the agenda is Continued Business from the last meeting and this is Petition Number 2024-34-DSV, Lisa Rollins, and, Mr. Smith, is there additional information from staff? Smith Not a lot of additional information. Just to, to hit high notes here – you can see on the screen this is a lot coverage issue. The standard allowed by our Zoning Ordinance is 20%. If you look at the existing house, the patio, coupled with the proposed addition, the calculation comes out to 27.15% so the request tonight if y’all guys approve it would be to allow the petitioner to exceed the minimum or the maximum lot coverage of 20%. The number would go from 20% to 27.15%. Postlethwait Right, and if my memory – Smith Happy to answer any questions you have. Postlethwait If my memory serves me well on the history of this petition, it was first heard and it was a, there were four of us and it was a tie vote and so it was continued. Smith That’s correct and then it was continued to last month’s meeting and then – Postlethwait Three of us – Smith Through various circumstances we ended up with three BZA members – Postlethwait Right. Smith Which would have required a unanimous vote from all three and so we requested or the petitioner requested a continuance. So now we have five BZA members, right? Postlethwait We have a full ___. 15:54 Smith We got the whole crew and so really not a lot to the, the meat and potatoes to the request. The lot has, it’s pretty much the same request, just unique circumstances as to a tie vote two months ago, three members last, last meeting and so here we are. Postlethwait And just one further thing and that is that the staff report indicates, it was originally indicated that it was 38.66% was being requested and it’s actually 27%. Smith Yes ma’am. So when we were doing the calculations, the numbers that were turned into to us, I, I thought I checked them. I should’ve checked them but long story short, I checked them during the meeting which is not a great time to check the numbers but I realized that they had calculated the total number of the, the driveway and the sidewalks which we don’t consider sidewalks and driveways in the calculations for lot coverage and so I took that number out and so now you’re seeing the new number which is 27%. Postlethwait Great. Thank you. And the petitioner is here if you would give your name and address for the record please. Page 7 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Mundy Could, could I ask a question of Mr. Smith? Postlethwait Sure. Mundy There, there is a deck and there’s I think pavers, a paver patio. I, I take it that there’s no allowance for the fact that those are not, non-permeable? Is that correct? Smith Separate petition but we had this conversation today. They still count as lot coverage. I’ve been trying to push on that idea some. I don’t know how successful I am on pavers and that type of thing being counted as lot coverage. I failed again today on that discussion but, so it’s currently calculated. It currently counts. There is no, there is no exemption for that. Mundy Okay. Dale Is there not a, a bonus or something for – Smith So in certain zoning districts – Dale Impervious? Oh. Smith If you have impervious pavers you get an extra 2% bump. That’s not the case here. Hinshaw Pervious. If they’re really pervious pavers – Smith Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hinshaw Not just pavers. Smith Yeah, you get a 2% bump. Either way, you’re at 27% here so even if that was the case, which it’s not, but even if it was you’d only be at 22% so. Postlethwait Okay, great. Thank you Mr. Smith. So, now Ms. Rollins if you would – Rollins Lisa Rollins, 4603 South Cobblestone Drive. So there were a couple of things that were raised at the first meeting that I came to that we didn’t answer very well. I apologize I didn’t come very well prepared for that one so I just wanted to go back over them and there was, obviously, when you look at the diagram of the garage extension it looks quite large even from here. The reason for the request for the extension is that the existing property does have a three-car garage and the depth of that garage is particularly shallow especially with today’s standard of cars and I think we discussed the size of my family previously. It is not unusual for Zionsville so we do have a large vehicle that has to get put into that car garage so realistically it’s only a two-car garage and as part of the HOA, we’re not allowed to put any other external like sheds or anything out so all the bikes, all the kids’ stuff, you know it works. Any of this is in the third garage. So that’s really one of the reasons for the request for the extension and the idea was when we went, went around getting this extension in place or getting the schematics Page 8 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 put together was to be able to go onto a second floor so just have the floor space of a garage extension and not that bonus room at the back but we realized that the tie in to the roof would actually become quite messy and quite complicate how the roof exists at the moment and this particular property is quite obvious when you drive into the neighborhood. It’s one of the sort of key turning points in Cobblestone Drive so we were really conscious about making sure that aesthetically this ties in and does not cause anybody to have any issue. So we thought okay, well we’ll just dig underneath we’ve got this great slope of grass which I love to cut so we’ll just dig that out and we’ll put the equipment underneath the garage. Unfortunately, we went around the pricing of the slabs required to go so to put vehicles on top and cut out underneath became a little bit cost prohibitive so that’s why we went for that extended depth back. So I don’t think I answered that particularly well last time. I just wanted to go around that because when you do look at it on here it looks huge but the intention is not for it to be huge. We just wanted to make sure that we had something that was genuinely useful and the depth of that garage had been planned at 25 foot rather than the existing 20 foot so that we can get a full-sized vehicle in there and still open the back of it which we currently can’t do in the existing garage so that was why it looks so big so I apologize again not being able to answer that last time around. And then secondly, and I think probably the, the point we got stuck at last time was about the hardship. So in the couple of months that I’ve had to poke around on Zillow, there’s a few price changes that have happened in properties around Zionsville so they’re, they are coming down which has closed the gap a little bit but in order to stay within the Zionsville, Zionsville Middle School remit, I did manage to find one house that was reasonable and it sat at the one million and a quarter mark, had four car garages and looked as though it stayed within all variance requirements which some properties I thought were – so I stayed away from them. By the time we went through the numbers and I netted off how much we would get after selling and buying and then how much we’d put to one side to build the garage, it put the hardship at quarter of a million and that is before any extra financing or moving, any allowances allowed for that. Postlethwait Yeah. Questions for petitioner? Mundy I, I have a question. You, you partially answered it. This is a garage that, is it 42 feet deep? Rollins For the extension – Postlethwait Yes. Rollins It’s 42 foot deep, yeah. Mundy Now you could put a small school bus in 42 feet so since you’re asking to go over the, the lot coverage anyhow, I guess an explanation as to what, what’s the reasonable need for a 42-foot garage? And the other thing is I, we all fully appreciate the fact that another property would satisfy your needs might be much more expensive but that’s not a consideration for us to make. Page 9 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Rollins The, the 42-foot question first off – so the, the garage depth that we’ve requested is 25 foot which would give us the full allowance to clear around the back of the vehicles and be able to open them and to do like some of the larger trucks for future growth and, and use of the garage. So we went to the 25-foot garage and behind that because of not being able to go under the garage to be able to put garden equipment which we can’t store in any other part of the property, that would then allow for stairs to be put in, roughly 3 foot and then a depth of 15 foot’s worth of storage, 14 foot’s worth of storage, sorry. Postlethwait And this would be upstairs? Rollins It would allow for you to be able to, it ends up being both because you, because you can’t go under where the car, where the vehicles are parked you end up having to put the depth on the back of it – Postlethwait Oh, I see. Rollins And you can then to maximize how much space you’re creating really is what we’re trying to do, you can then turn at the stairs and to go down and have that external storage that we’re looking for. Fedor When you say, are you talking like below the deck stairs storage and then storing underneath the deck? Is that what you’re saying? Rollins I don’t know if I’m – Fedor You said you’d have some stairs going down. Is that going down to just below the deck for storage covered? Rollins Okay so they, there is another image. I don’t know if you’ve got access to it. So this property slopes quite heavily back – Fedor Uh huh. Rollins Down and to the pond, so what it would allow them to do is to put stairs to go down from the garage level down into what would be like it would be internal storage but for external use, if that makes sense. “Dirty storage.” Fedor Okay. Postlethwait At the back of the garage. Rollins At the back bottom of the garage. Fedor It’s not – oh, I’m sorry. It’s not an extension of the deck and then pushing lawnmowers underneath the deck for lack of a better – Rollins No, you can’t – it would, you can’t put anything under the deck. Page 10 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Postlethwait So to be clear, of that 42-foot, because the schematic that was here showed a depth of 42 feet, of that you’re saying 25 feet or so is for actually parking the vehicles – Rollins Correct. Postlethwait And the rest is for other storage that would be essentially on a lower level than the parking area – Rollins Correct. Postlethwait Would be accessible because of the slope of the, of the lot? Rollins Yes. Mundy And just to get some perspective – what’s the depth of the, the distance from the lower floor at the back of the garage to the, the ceiling? Rollins Oh, yeah, this house has a walkout anyway so it’s, it would be the full depth, standard depth. Yeah, it’s quite, it’s got quite a drop. Postlethwait This is where having a photo would probably, of your existing house would probably be useful for us to, to understand what the slope is and the – Rollins Yeah, I think we had an image in our previous ones. Fedor I, I got one – Mundy Yeah, there is one – Fedor In their initial filing, one of the last photos – Postlethwait Yeah. Oh yes, okay. That helps. Hinshaw It’s tiny on our screen. Mundy Which you don’t get that sense of, of dropping down at all from the renderings. Oh yeah, there you can see it. Hinshaw It starts there – Mundy Right. Hinshaw And it goes all the way down to the patio level. Mundy If you look at this though it’s just flat. Hinshaw Yeah. Mundy Just the renderings. Page 11 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Hinshaw The rendering. Postlethwait Looking at the same, yes, okay but the fact that the deck is built on this, on – Hinshaw The deck is higher than the patio. Postlethwait Yeah. Hinshaw I have trouble figuring out a way how this is a unique hardship to the site that just anyone couldn’t use – say I have a hardship because I need more space, right? And I have, I, I, I remember it from the first time because anyone could come up and say I have a hardship, I need to exceed lot coverage because I need more space and that this does appear to make those bigger than the other ones in the neighborhood that probably have the same cars, the same families, the same constraints, right? The lots are all sort of constrained so how, is there a unique – Rollins We, we’ve had this same conversation about – because genuinely I can park a fairly large car in the garage but you, you can’t get around it. You, you, you can’t get around it. My kids kind of make a joke they will have to come out of one side of it, especially now we’ve got more trashcans in there than we previously did. So you can get the vehicles in but for some reason this model of house has a very shallow garage because I do, I drive past other peoples. We have friends in the neighborhood and they can store more stuff in the depth of that garage which particularly this model given the size of the house it is disproportional to the size of the garage and external space that we’ve got and it’s a question that we’ve had for a while with this one. And we now have, as I say, three kids rattling quickly up so we want to be able to continue to use the property to its full potential and this would allow us to do that. Postlethwait And so I’m looking at this photo. Have you considered perhaps the, taking out the patio or doing some other thing that would allow this to be closer to the permitted 20%? Rollins Yeah. So the house itself is 16% of the 20% so the house is already covering a significant amount. The patio is the other 4. We’ve looked, we can reduce it, we can take another 6 foot off it and then get it down from 7%, from the 7% request to a 6% request so basically you’re talking about 6-foot per percent that we’re asking for there. All we’re trying to do is trying to maximize what we’re investing in the property by asking for the full 7% because if we’re going to go in for it and we want to do it properly and we want to make sure that we get the most out of it that we possibly can so but basically we did consider lifting, lifting the patio. It’s been there from the moment the house was built basically so we could do it. It would be expensive but it wouldn’t give us what we need anyway. Mundy This, this one is – I’m generally very receptive to the need for a garage. I don’t, I believe that in many, many cases it is a hardship if you don’t have a garage or you don’t have adequate garage to store your vehicle in but you already have a three-car garage. This is a five-car garage with a lot of storage space which would be, be exceptional. I, I suspect that in the entire addition there’s probably not very many, if any, five-car garages. Page 12 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Rollins There – Mundy And so that, I think, is what makes the hardship. As I recall, we didn’t have these renderings until the night of the meeting which we heard this petition so we didn’t know what it was for and I think that what our, our need is is to understand what this is needed for and does it, is there a hardship if it’s denied? That is the key, I think, at least in my mind is understanding that there is a hardship if it is denied and so far I, I have difficulty when you have a three-car garage now asking to add a very, very large two-car garage to find a hardship. Rollins So we have a three-car garage today which from a practical perspective can operate as a two-car garage because everything else has to sit in the third one. The request is to add a garage extension that will allow us to garage the vehicles that we are in the process of having to purchase as we’ve got an upcoming 16- year-old closely followed by another one in a year’s time and another one in about two years thereafter. So this is to enable us to continue to expand our parking capability because, unfortunately, whilst the first child might transfer across from using her bike to a car, I still got that, the garage used for everything else from a lawnmower to all of the bikes and any of the external equip, garden equipment we might want to use. So I, I need to extend, we need to get a variance to the coverage whether it’s 1% through to 7%, I still got to come get that approval from you guys because I’m at my limit anyway. The reason we’ve gone for such a large request here to the full 7% is because we’re trying to make sure that we, we put an extension on that will continue to support our family and whomever might live in that property in the future because these genuinely are the big houses and, you know, we can ___ 33:43 with our kids with us for a period of time beyond just being at school, they’re going to be young adults still living there so this will allow us to grow with that family. It is, it is possible, as I said, we could take 6 foot off it and I can reduce it by 1% so I could take it from 7% to 6% but I, I still need approval for coverage to put that extension in place. Mundy That’s correct and I think you’re at 20% right now so – Postlethwait I think one of the but one aspect of this that we shouldn’t forget is their, their, if I understand properly, your covenants do not allow you to have any kind of an outbuilding – Rollins No. Postlethwait So all storage of any kind of equipment or whatever has to be in the garage. There is no alternative. So I do think that’s, that’s an aspect that needs to be considered. Hurst Madam President – Postlethwait Certainly. Hurst Is it appropriate now for me to ask questions of staff or? Postlethwait You absolutely – Page 13 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Hurst I’m trying to figure out the order. Postlethwait Yes. Hurst And I want to apologize to the petitioner. My absences at the last two meetings were unavoidable and I apologize for the, the delay that that caused. Mr. Smith, when we have lot coverage restrictions like we’re facing here, what are we trying to manage with that lot coverage restriction in the Zoning Ordinance? Smith Umm, in my personal opinion, two primary problems: One will be stormwater drainage runoff issues. If you have too much impervious surface you can create drainage problems. Hurst Sure. Smith The second one would be density. You don’t want to have too many what we call primary residences on one lot. That’s not going to be the situation here. Mainly and also just kind of what’s the way, what I’m looking for the word – uniform development, right? You don’t want to have one parcel covered let’s say 30%, 27% and not allow somebody over here to do and it looks 20% and you just get inconsistent development, right? And so those are the things. Mike, you can elaborate if, if you have other things that you want to add to it. Postlethwait You have to add in I think probably greenspace – Smith Greenspace. Postlethwait In that equation too, especially in the Village having greenspace is part of that calculation. Smith And you’ll – Hurst It’s maybe in the Village. Hinshaw And massing. Smith It’s important to note too that each zoning district, right, each zoning category that we have has different lot coverage calculations for different reasons, right? So like she mentioned the Village, right? It’s important to preserve certain elements of that. Greenspace is an important part of that, right? So in certain districts you can go as high as 35% lot coverage, add the 2% extra rule that you have for the, the pavers, the impervious surfaces, and you could go up to as far as 37. Unfortunately, her zoning district doesn’t allow that and staff doesn’t have the flexibility to be like well, if you was this zoning district you could go up to this number right and so we’re just going to make an exception so. Hurst No, if, if – I – Smith I hope that answered your question. Page 14 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Hurst Well, I, I think it and I, I cheated because I didn’t live that meeting once, I’ve lived it twice because I’ve watched it twice online so I’ve gotten to, to think about this quite a bit. If, if their lot was 7/50th of an acre larger, they could just do this. They have a very large common area immediately adjacent to their property that there’s one other home that could kind of make some sort of claim on what drainage that might provide, that open greenspace that can’t be built on. And so when I look at, when I look at this property and I think okay, what’s unique about this that our zoning might be causing a hardship, an unnecessary hardship, and I’m leaning to in this case the fact that there is unbuildable open and pervious ground immediately adjacent to their property. That plays a lot into my thinking. Smith When it comes to drainage too, just to elaborate on that – without, again, diving into the weeds but from an engineering, all that standpoint, there’s a, a section in the code that essentially says you can’t make, you can’t make it worse on your neighbor, right? So, whatever y’all’s outcome is, when she does apply for a building permit, there will be some sort of mitigation that she, if, if it does increase that, that our Engineering Department and all that stuff, Stormwater, will handle so it’s not like an approval here is going to exempt her from having to address any problems that she might create for a stormwater standpoint. She would still have to address that but that would be at a different stage in the development process. That statement was just why, why do we have lot coverage – that was the question. Hurst Yeah. Smith That was the response to that but it doesn’t mean that if this is approved that you wouldn’t have to mitigate that to some degree if you were to increase a problem on your neighbor. You’d still have to mitigate it, we would address it later on. Postlethwait So if I may just take a minute. I want to ask if there’s anybody else here who would like to speak about this petition, either in favor or in opposition? Please if you would come to the mic and identify yourself please – your name and address. Strickland My name is Damon Strickland. I am at 4604 South Cobblestone, quite literally across the street. A couple things that I wanted to know is first off, I’m fully in favor of this. I’ll just, I’ll state that right now. The builder that is going to be building the Rollins home or the, the addition is the same builder that just added a garage onto my place across the street. You mentioned, I believe it was Mr. Mundy, you mentioned there are few, if any, homes in the neighborhood that have done a larger garage. We are now at six and at least one more planned plus this one potentially in the last two years, potentially three years. Mine finished at the end of last year. I have gone from a standard three to a very large five. I added a three-stall onto my existing three stall but I covered up one of those and I went up because my lot, my roofline was not affected. As Lisa has pointed out, the roofline issue has a aesthetic impact to the neighborhood and that’s the reason why they have made the plan to go back instead of up. It’s, it’s purely a neighborhood thing as I believe you mentioned as well, we have no outbuilding capability in neighborhood at all. Everything has to be attached and so given that, we, the garages that I’ve seen, mine actually is the only one that is done three to the side in an L-shape much like this but, again, I went up and so I did not get a variance. I think I’m now at 20%. I am across the street. This is, I will be one of Page 15 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 the largest impacted homes in the community. I’m fully in favor given the design, given the plan, given the builder that I know is going to be doing this. He’s expensive but he’s incredibly good and the, the neighborhood will benefit, I believe, from this more largely. So, in terms of a hardship, I can also attest to the fact that a 600 square foot garage is not that big anymore and it is – I have two kids, my kids are in college now. I have now added on an additional 800 feet so now I have a 1,400 foot garage. It’s wonderful. It’s fantastic but that 600 feet, 30 foot x 20 foot does feel snug when you start adding in bicycles and garbage cans and things like that. Again, we have no ability to put those anywhere else and so given that everything is in that garage, it, it is a bit of a hardship for families larger than probably three, especially when now you add a third and even a fourth vehicle down the line. So, just that was one comment I wanted to make just in pure favor of this plan, of this project and with this builder as probably the most impacted house in the community. Postlethwait Thank you very much for your comment. Mundy I have a question if you would not mind answering. Strickland Oh. Mundy Did you have to get a variance to – Strickland No. Mundy Add to your garage? Strickland I, I did not because I went vertical. I went up. My roofline was not affected aesthetically. The design of our roofline did a saddle and tied into the back of my garage. Where this garage is, it is actually going into the second story. Mine went into a single-story garage attic line. So a simple saddle was all that was necessary so I was able to build vertical without any impact. I did not need a variance. Mundy Okay. Thank you. And is there a covenant restriction? Do you have to go through an architectural review? It’s been two months so I don’t remember if you, I think you said you already had the approval? Postlethwait They have HOA. Mundy Okay. Strickland Yeah. The, the ARB approves everything and this one was approved as well. Postlethwait Thank you. Mundy Thank you. Postlethwait Someone else who’d like to speak? Please give your name and address for the record. Page 16 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Thompson Speaking of the Architectural Review Board – my name is Tom Thompson. I live at 8855 Stonewick Way in Cobblestone. I’m the Chairman of the ARB and the Rollins have submitted their work to us three months ago and the Board approved everything that was submitted. The covenants do specify that it has to be attached, it has to be cosmetically appeasing and matching to the existing structure, it cannot cross any easements, you know, draining, electrical, any kind of easements that are in the plot plan. So everything that they submitted was approved unanimously and I just wanted to make sure that you all knew that we were on board with that. Postlethwait Good. Thompson Okay? Postlethwait Thank you very much. Thompson Thank you. Postlethwait Other, any other comment? Discussion, thoughts? You’re way down there at the end – Hurst You, you get penalized when you miss meetings I’m learning. No, I, I, I take Mr. Smith’s comments seriously but there is a bunch of open space right next to this property that, to me, does play into how we should or certainly will play into how I think about this variance request. Hinshaw I appreciate the need for the garage spaces it’s just all of the rest, right? It, it feels like you went for as big as you can possibly need instead of trying to get as close to the requirements as possible, right? And we see both approaches from people. Some people will tear out the patio, will do everything and they try to get as close as you can. You took the opposite, right? And so I see the hardship for the extra garage spaces but you are asking quite a bit in excess of just those garage spaces and you need some garden things but there’s also three other bays and they’re shallow for a big vehicle but not for a mower, right, and things and so I, I wish I could take other surrounding lots into account but that’s not necessarily sort of how I interpret the rules, right? I want to interpret for each individual not so – I’m not quite ready there. Sorry. Postlethwait Other comments, other thoughts? Hinshaw It’s a lot. Mundy Again, I’m usually supportive of garage space, even when it’s not immediately needed and maybe even excessive. I mean I, I, too, have much more garage space than anyone needs but my fear is that it is the whole element of this really does not meet the requirement of an unnecessary hardship should it be denied I think. It’s a desire but I, I generally find my, my own justification is that the automobile is generally the second largest expense that a, a family makes and so keeping it inside as an asset makes sense but probably more importantly, just a safety factor that you could pull into covered space, go into your home without going outside I Page 17 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 think there’s a safety element there and I, that is generally my rationale in my own mind as to why garage space might be needed and the potential for an unnecessary hardship with a denial is just that – the safety factor and to some extent the protection of an asset but mine is generally a warped view I think on that matter. Postlethwait I wouldn’t say that. Fedor I, I, I still am struggling with the hardship like I did last month or two months ago. I, I, I just looked up what the, what a full-size pickup truck is in length. You’re at 20 feet. So you’re at 26 foot in garage space plus the room in the back. It’s big and I, I, I understand needing the space. I completely do but this, this is big and I’ll go back to like I said two months ago, I, I, I don’t see the meaning that the, the hardship qualification. Postlethwait Well I think from my point of view, I guess, I’m, I can see what you’re talking about with hardship with regard to where, where you put the storage, the ability to have a, a storage place since you have no option to be able to put something out detached from the garage or from the house to store equipment which as you’re talking about, bicycles and lawnmowers and all of those things. I under, I understand the need for space and those are things that even if you could put something outside you may not want to have sitting out in an unheated, weather- affected space anyway. So, I am struggling much less with that. I do understand thinking that if we’re going to do this we want to make sure that we’re not underdoing it so that two years from now we’re asking ourselves why we didn’t do something that will be more useful. I understand that. So I guess I’m struggling less with the hardship element than I think some of my colleagues here but, yeah, I – yeah, my take on things. So are we close enough to have a motion or we still want to discuss some more? What are your thoughts? Mundy Unless there are some relevant facts that have just not been brought up, I’m not sure where we’ll get with further discussion. Postlethwait Right. Fedor The, the neighbor, the gentleman in the orange shirt back there – I’m sorry, I can’t remember your name. You said this, would you mind coming back up for a second? You said this is a, an important lot when you pull into your neighborhood. With the photos we have available here I’m not kinda seeing how that, basically they, they’re going one, one story instead of two stories. Strickland So – Fedor And, and the reason being partially it’s because of the aesthetics coming into the neighborhood? Strickland Okay, so if you were to actually from this view if you were to go to the right or straight, straight down this street yep, yep and stop here if you look to the left, now that is my driveway and where that empty space is now there is a garage next to that three-stall and so, in fact, I think at this point they were building, if you zoom in, they’re digging the foundations and the footers now. So literally Page 18 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 across the street. I have a flat land, a flat lot. I do not have the greenspace as mentioned immediately to the south that does trickle off down so mine is among the most visible houses to the Rollins’ home. If anyone would be affected negatively or positively, it would be probably us and neighbors surrounding. Given the greenspace next to this, this would have an aesthetic positive impact because it, it really is not a factor on the, on the, the greenspace on either side. If you scroll back down you can see on the other side there’s the greenspace there, none of that is developed and that is wide open space that does then go down in the back to the, the retention pond. When you come down West Cobblestone that’s basically the view you have is of that greenspace. It’s only when you turn the corner then do you see the homes. So as I, as I’m across the street and as I mentioned, there are now six developed 2+ additional stall garage with one in development and then this one being the petitioned eighth. Taylor We should let the record reflect that’s Mr. Strickland again – Postlethwait Right. Taylor Just for the record. Fedor Yes, thank you. Taylor For our minutes. I wrote everything down so. Fedor And then one last thing – and this is more aesthetics of the, of the renderings. The east elevation or the one facing the pond, it, it shows it as a, the elevation we have in front of us here shows it as a standard, it doesn’t show the, the elevation drop on that property there. So that’s going to be a big wall of vinyl as a I look at it. It that going to be brick or is that going to be vinyl? I mean it’s almost like a two-story vinyl wall on the back of your property. Rollins Well, yeah, I mean that, also that image doesn’t have all of the windows that are on the back of the property – Fedor Yeah, I didn’t – Rollins So it makes it really ugly. Postlethwait Yeah. Rollins So yeah, it will, it, the back of the property is siding all the way down and as I said earlier there is a walkout beneath that so we will follow the same symmetry of the back that’s existing on the back of the property to that extension. Fedor So what would be your south elevation, the elevation facing the common area? That’ll be a full brick? Rollins That will be brick, yeah. You see because the side of the property is brick, is existing brick so that will, that will be bricked and continue to brick down through that elevation. Because that’s how the existing – Page 19 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Hinshaw Two stories of brick down there. Fedor Yeah, that’s, that’s what I’m looking at. So it’ll be a big brick wall on one side and a big vinyl elevation drop. I just don’t have the elevations to tell me how much of a drop I’m really looking at. Rollins I have it here on paper if you, I have a paper one. Postlethwait And let’s keep in mind that the architectural committee – Fedor Yeah, I know. Right. Postlethwait Of the HOA has already opined on this. Fedor Yeah. Rollins Yeah. Postlethwait So probably that’s not maybe within our purview. Fedor I was just trying to wrap my head around. Rollins Do you want to see the paper version of the elevation? Would that help you? Fedor I, I think we have it don’t we somewhere in here? Postlethwait I don’t know that we – Dale Is that not what you ____? 54:06 Fedor If I could it’d be great, please. Postlethwait Thank you. Smith I believe you worked with Andy Cash, right? He sent me this, so this is what I’ve got. Rollins __________ 54:19 inaudible off microphone Fedor That’s a pretty good drop in elevation there so. All right, thank you. Hurst I, I might ask staff and, and fellow BZA members if this were to pass, are there any conditions that would help us get it to pass? So if someone were to make a motion, are there any conditions that would help this along? Mundy I, I don’t believe so unless we wanted to reduce the size or something like that. I mean I, the topography we’re not going to change. Fedor No. Page 20 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Mundy There are times when conditions are placed upon the approval but I guess I don’t, I don’t see anything like that being feasible for us to come up with. Hurst I, I had not heard anything suggested but wanted to make sure that wasn’t a, the, wasn’t the reason an attempt at a vote failed. Mundy Madam Chair if you’d like a motion, we can at least see – Postlethwait Okay. Mundy Where this gets us. Postlethwait All right, thank you Mr. Mundy. Mundy I move that Docket 2024-34-DSV, Development Standards Variance to exceed the maximum lot coverage for the property at 4603 South Cobblestone Drive be approved as presented and described based on the submitted Findings of Fact and substantial compliance with the submitted site plans. Postlethwait Thank you Mr. Mundy. Is there a second? Hurst Second. Postlethwait Thank you Mr. – Taylor Hurst. Postlethwait Hurst. Thank you. Hinshaw You only had the first name. Postlethwait Yeah. Hurst That new guy to my right, it’s fine. Postlethwait Further discussion? Taylor You miss a meeting – Postlethwait No, it’s more a function of my, my cognition – Hurst No. Postlethwait Than anything else. Hurst It is quite all right. Postlethwait Any further discussion? I think we will ask Mr. Dale for a roll call vote if you would please on this one? Dale Steve Mundy? Page 21 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Mundy Aye. Dale Jim Hurst? Hurst Aye. Dale Kathi Postlethwait? Postlethwait Aye. Dale Josh Fedor? Fedor Nay. Dale Jocelyn Hinshaw? Hinshaw Nay. Dale Motion passes 3-2. Postlethwait It carries 3 to 2, so good luck with your project. Smith Just from an administrative standpoint, I’ll send you some paperwork tomorrow, worse case scenario Friday, that you can use when you apply for your building permit okay? Postlethwait And thank you for your patience. All right – Dale Well we are closing the hearing portion. Postlethwait We’re closing the hearing portion of this meeting so we do have some other matters to be considered. Dale Right. Postlethwait Our Rules and Procedures – you may remember that we had sort of a first look at these previously but are there discussion? Dale I thought that Jonathan, if you could summarize the high points of some of the changes or differences between the past or the current rules versus the new ones in front of the Board tonight? Smith Umm, so when you just look at the document, you’re going to notice offhand there’s been some formatting changes, some rearranging of the sections. That was just done to make it, I don’t know how much fun reading Rules and Procedures can be but it made it better, right? So, the formatting, that type of thing, we did change. If you go through here, really the, the ones I highlighted during the pre-meeting, what I wanted and intended when I started this was to allow people to withdraw without needing to suspend the rules. I’ve always been a believer that if somebody wants to get closer to the Zoning Ordinance standard Page 22 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 that we should make it as easy as possible for them to comply with the Zoning Ordinance, right? And the way our current rules are laid out, people are not able to withdraw their petition once they’ve started speaking, right? And oftentimes people get before the Board, they speak with you guys and they realize well, for whatever reason they’re better off changing their idea or they’re not going to get it and so it helps staff get to a solution with that petitioner and then once we reach a solution, we need to be able to withdraw the petition and y’all guys then have to suspend the rules. The first change is we’re going to allow people to just withdraw, right? Which is fantastic in my opinion. The second meat and potatoes change that we’re doing you’ve noticed roll call votes, right? So right now or historically all in favor say aye – everybody aye, you know any opposed and it’s just kinda quiet but it’s really challenging to figure out if everybody actually voted because it’s just one big aye. Roll call is, is very nice and so that’s one, one change in here. Another change, it’s not really going to impact how y’all operate, it’s more of a staff side of, of the equation – the state law regarding public noticing is 10 days. We’ve run into some issues, without diving off into the weeds, with public noticing, so we’re moving that 10-day threshold up to 14 days. So that gives us a little bit of wiggle room both from the staff being able to help people do public noticing. It also helps the citizens be more aware. I’m trying to think of any of the other major things that – I think we talked about a sign-in sheet as well. So a sign-in sheet right now we don’t do that but other – Dale Those are for people who want to speak in favor or against. Smith Yeah, other municipalities it’s a pretty common practice, other committees it’s common practice to lay out at the door a sign-in sheet for each docket number and essentially if you want to speak, get here before the meeting, sign up, I would give those sign-in sheets to the Chair and essentially y’all guys would kind of have a, a, an ordered structure to the, the public comment side of things, not necessarily a requirement but just, just add some structure and it also helps our IT Department and our transcriber when somebody’s randomly speaking oftentimes they don’t, not until we tell them please come to the mic and state your name, right? Oftentimes people just speak. Well if we have a list of speakers, it’s much easier for the transcriber. Fedor The only concern I would have on that one is if somebody came to a meeting – I’m not going to say anything, something was said they got, they wanted to say something and then they were reluctant because they had not signed up prior to the meeting. I have no problem with having a sign-up form but maybe encourage folks if you do want to speak, please come to the podium and sign up, sign the form before you walk away from the podium. Smith And – Fedor That, that’s my only concern I would see with that. I, I think it’s great. Smith Yeah. Page 23 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Fedor A real good way to know what someone’s name and address is without having to go from the audio recordings so but encourage people that if they do want to speak they didn’t have to sign up prior to the meeting to be available to speak. Hurst I would echo Mr. Fedor’s comments. Smith Okay. Postlethwait And I think also the, the we should not preclude if someone has not signed up and they’re sitting and they find that they want to say something, we should not eliminate the opportunity that they can if they – Smith Yeah. Postlethwait If they decide. Smith From an administrative side of things, super easy to hit the delete button. Postlethwait Right. Smith I can easily remove it if that’s how y’all guys decide. Postlethwait No, I think, I think it’s a good idea. Having a sign-up sheet I think is a good idea for petitions. Hurst And, and to Josh’s point, if the sign-up sheet moved up there for the people that decided later they wanted – Postlethwait Right. Hurst To speak – Smith Oh yeah. Hurst Then they could sign it then. Postlethwait Right. Smith Yeah. Hurst You would still get your record, we would still permit anybody that wished to speak a chance to speak. Postlethwait Right. Hinshaw But you’d have – Smith The uh – Hinshaw A sense of how many people were going to speak before you got to them which would help. Even if one or two jumped – Page 24 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Fedor That I did like. Hinshaw Up there it would be nice. Postlethwait Oftentimes it’s a, it’s a very sparse group as we saw tonight. Hinshaw Yeah. Postlethwait But there are periodically occasions in which it’s, it’s a larger group – Hurst I’m aware. Postlethwait And it’s hard to know of those people how many want to speak and how many are just spectators so this would at least give us a sense of there are 10 people signed up and so. Hinshaw So you’ve each got two minutes and keep going – Fedor Yeah. Hinshaw And not. Taylor Well the Plan Commission members know. Hurst Yeah, we know. Taylor They have large crowds. Postlethwait Yeah, yeah. Dale Jonathan, was there anything else? Smith A couple other, I mean, it’s not going to impact, like I said, y’alls but just for the record to note so that people know that it is in the, if they ever watch this video and they want to know – we’re proposing currently with public noticing we only do the adjoining properties. This proposal is going to expand that to two owners deep or 660 feet, whichever is less, which is a standard practice and, again, among other places. We don’t do that, now we’re asking to do so, again, it’s never a bad thing to do too much noticing and to, to notify as many people about what’s going on as possible. That’s a change. The other thing that might impact you guys if y’all have noticed, and I’ll give credit to Jodi from Plan Commission on this, I copied a lot of it from her but we’re proposing, actually we put it in question marks for y’all to look at, of reducing right now petitioners get 15 minutes and I know there has been some discussion about trying to convince people to present their PowerPoints ahead of time. Maybe instead of giving them 15, let’s consider giving them 10, right? It’s highlighted in yellow with question marks beside it so it y’all guys want to see it at 10 minutes, we can easily make that change. Really the whole point of this discussion is not to get these approved tonight, it’s to get the expression on your faces when we start talking about this stuff to kinda know how much work I’ve gotta do tomorrow on this docket. Page 25 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Postlethwait You’re going to be watching the video to see what – Smith Yeah, yeah. Fedor Our, our facial expressions are on the public record. Smith And so, you know – Postlethwait I think Jonathan there are moments when 10 minutes would be, would be really wonderful but I think it would, there will be a learning curve for petitioners, particularly when they’re represented by legal counsel – Smith Yeah. Postlethwait For them to be concise and tailor their message a little bit more specifically. So, I don’t think that will happen instantaneously. Smith Yeah. Postlethwait So. Hurst So some soft administration of the 10-minute rule sounds – Postlethwait Yes. Smith Yeah. Hurst Kinda nice. Postlethwait Yeah, something like that. Smith We’re flexible, right? And I, I will say this – I mean there’s been times where we’ve gone even with our current rules, right? We’ve been very lenient on letting people – Postlethwait Yes. Smith Talk and expand so – Postlethwait Yes. Smith I mean, just because there’s something written in our rules doesn’t necessarily mean that you as the Chair are going to force somebody to stop speaking, right? It’s really at your discretion. Postlethwait Well I do think the idea of, of having PowerPoint, the materials presented in advance for us to look at before we get here is still something that I think would be a really good idea and I think if, if they would understand that that would be useful that would help them in presenting their materials rather than waiting until Page 26 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 the day of and, and then flashing them on the screen and hoping that we, that we get it. So – Smith Two other points I’m going to make and then I’ll just, I think I’ve gotten my feedback or at least gone over the highlights here. The first one is on the day that we meet. Last year I was looking at it, when we had to postpone or change meetings, the only time we changed a meeting was I think it was spring break which is April and we tried to push it back to whatever our rules allowed for the second option. The second option, if you can’t meet on the first Wednesday of the month, option B is we meet on the first Thursday of the month, right? But if you’re gone on spring break that doesn’t really give you any, any options, right? So maybe amongst the Board let’s try to find like a good time for like a second date since really the only time last year we did this was during spring break when everybody was trying to go on vacation. We couldn’t meet on Wednesday because everybody was gone on spring break and then the next Thursday, the next day we couldn’t meet either because everybody was still gone on spring break. So, just a thought on that. Maybe we pick a different day of the month if we can’t meet on the first Wednesday, pick a different date that’s not the same week. Hurst Or perhaps as you suggested, the next line allowing the Chair to set a date. Smith To set a date? Hurst Add language for that – Fedor Yeah but – Hurst Would seem to solve that. Smith Yeah. The other thing, electronic meeting policy. This is more of a, a Planning Commission thing that I took from out of their packet as well. The electronic meeting stuff really came around because of COVID and I think we’ve passed that, that era of COVID and a lot of municipalities are not necessarily allowing for electronic attendance. If y’all guys want to eliminate that, we can. If you want to keep it, we can but that’s why it’s highlighted is just to circle back to it. COVID is no longer really impacting our ability to attend meetings so if we want to be in person, we can do so or we can continue to allow electronic attendance and – Mundy We have had – Smith That’s why it’s highlighted. Mundy We have had a few instances where a Board member was out of town but could join and sometimes it doesn’t matter, we still have a quorum but if we only had two or three, the ability to have a fourth or a fifth join us electronically I think is still worthwhile, not preferable, but worthwhile to have that provision. Smith Yeah. Page 27 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Hinshaw It is difficult to have anyone present – be the presenter, right, or comment from attending online but it is probably a very nice option for people to be able to listen, right? Smith Yeah. Hinshaw If their spouse was here and they couldn’t, at least they could hear and feel like they knew what was going on so if it’s not a lot of trouble, I’m pretty in favor of just having the option. Smith Yeah. Fedor I’ve had the, I had to chair a Planning meeting that was all virtual. That’s taking it to one extreme. These generally it’s not like it’s an every month we have somebody who is trying to log in and, it does, legitimately takes a little bit longer, let the meeting flow, someone loses access, etc., but it’s not like it’s something we’re abusing on it or, or it’s being abused at this level right now. I, I think it’s, it’s fine and as I look at the dates for next year, we have a meeting on January 2nd, July 2nd, those are dates that are going to be, someone is going to be out of town. Postlethwait Right. Hinshaw Yeah. Mundy Yeah. Fedor I, I, I would say though I don’t think we need to allow, can we do this, we don’t need the public to be able to or I would like to see where the presenters had to be here and that, that’s very difficult to have a presenter out there in, in the virtual world and try and understand – it, it gets challenging. It’s one thing if it’s one of us that’s Zooming into the meeting but – Postlethwait I think in the past when we’ve had somebody who has been a petitioner, they have been there to answer questions and they’ve had somebody in the room. Fedor Okay. Postlethwait And that, this is a person who can field questions as needed but, I mean, trying to present something from, from a distance is, yeah, not optimal. Fedor Yeah, I, I’m not, I’m not really for that. It, it, it’s just, it’s challenging for us – Postlethwait Yeah. Fedor It’s challenging for them. Hurst Mr. Taylor, in Indiana does a remote, remoting in Board member count towards the quorum? Taylor No it does not. Page 28 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Hurst So it doesn’t solve a quorum issue? Taylor It does not but it did during COVID then when we came out of COVID – Hurst Right. Taylor The legislature changed the rule and said well we kinda like that flexibility but we don’t want, we want people to come to silly meetings. Postlethwait Yeah. Taylor So they changed the rule to say that you must have a quorum physically present and if you do, then and only then, can members participate remotely. And, and the other thing, the old rule you could, you could log in and watch but you couldn’t speak or vote. So during COVID they opened that up and then so currently the rule which is referred to in here says you have to have a quorum, quorum physically present and then in your situation, two members maximum could be remote. I like remote participation and I’ll tell you why is, and we’ve, and we’ve seen this on the Plan Commission a few times but every, you have, we do lots of training, you have lots of experience, you have valuable input. I think we’re better as a Board if we have everybody so if, if somebody’s on, Dave Franz was in what Portugal once. He logged on and but again I think it means we’re just at our best if we have everybody’s point of view and if someone is on vacation somewhere, they take the, want to take the time to do their, do their job that they’ve signed up for that’s, that’s a great thing. I don’t think there’s any downside at all in it. I think it makes, it would make you better to have everybody there and, and, and I, not, not just, it’s not a fairness issue for me. It’s like when are we at our best? You’re at your best when all five of you are here, you share each other’s points of view, you talk, you listen to each other and come to good decisions. Sometimes one of you may think of a question that no one else thinks about and you raise it and everybody’s like oh yeah and so I just, I, I just think it’s a good thing. I like the rule the way it is now where you have to have a quorum and I have, I agree with Josh, I’ve not seen this abused. I think if, if a person decided to sit at home and never attend a meeting then you’d say is this a good rule but, again, I, I, I like what, I like what you have and I think you guys have treated it respectfully and you still have good attendance but I find that sometimes the best BZA members I know or Plan Commission members I know are busy people and sometimes their job takes them somewhere, they have a family too and, and so I just think it’s a good rule that gives us our best shot to have everybody in the lineup so to speak so I like it. Postlethwait There’s no reason, there’s no loss in, in keeping I guess? Smith So let me – Hurst I’m going to add one little wrinkle and I think Planning Commission has this that you only get so many remote meetings a year before somebody maybe has a conversation with you – Postlethwait Right. Page 29 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Hurst Is this a good fit? Taylor And that’s in the statute. Hurst Okay, well there you go. Taylor So the policy that it is referred to has that in there. You can, you cannot do it more than two consecutive meetings and you cannot do it more than so many times a year. So, yeah, it, it cannot be the way you just attend meetings. So those limits are already in the policy and that’s by state law and there was a lot of give and take among the legislature because some members in the public hated this that the government could function during the pandemic. Some people loved it and I think those people on Boards and Commissions thought hey, this is kinda handy because I’m in, I remember one guy said I go skiing the same week every year for 27 years but I’m willing to stop and still do my job if, if you’ll let me. That’s what I think the strength of it is but yeah, there’s a rule no more than two consecutive meetings and then I think it may be three times a year, don’t quote me on that – we’ll look it up but there’s a limit on total number per year. Hurst I, I like the rule as it is then. Mundy Yeah. Smith So just from a staff standpoint, in my world what I would love to see happen is if you have something that you’re opposed to that you see when you read through this document, email me directly and let me know. I’m more than happy to, like I said, hit the delete button. It’s not going to offend me at all. Otherwise, I would like to have a, a final draft for you all to consider to approve at next month’s meeting if, if that’s not too fast. Taylor Could I? I have one suggestion. Smith Okay. Taylor And it kinda goes to Jim’s question but because they never get to see Resolution 2021-01 or the state law, I wonder whether we couldn’t actually just articulate what the rules are so that, so that the BZA could see those in that policy which would say you, you, you cannot participate remotely in more than two consecutive meetings and so many meetings a year, you have to be able to be seen and heard. I think that might be helpful because it really goes directly to the question Jim had and it’s kind of a pet peeve of mine. I don’t like the incorporation of references unless somebody has that thing they can grab and say oh that’s what that is. So we have a great opportunity to maybe just expand that and say what the policy actually is. Postlethwait Right. I think that makes sense. Taylor Everybody understands it that way. Postlethwait It’s permitted but these are the, these are the – Page 30 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Taylor They don’t have to call the lawyer to get the rules. Postlethwait Good. Hinshaw Just so you don’t have to read my face later because I’m sick so it was probably a bad face and it wasn’t supposed to be but the notice to affect property owners, I, I that’s increasing it modestly. Honestly, it could even be increased to the next three but it always seems like just the immediate ones was skimpy frankly. Smith Yeah. Fedor There, there was a cost associated for a long time there with certified mail and, and the hassle with that but we’re not doing certified mail anymore or we’re not doing where they have to sign for it. I, I think 600 feet is, is, yeah, it’s a good start. It’s a good start. Smith Yeah. Hinshaw Yeah. Two or 600 even which could be, whichever is more – Smith Yeah. Hinshaw That doesn’t seem like that many people to notify with regular mail just if for no other reason just so your immediate neighbors can say I didn’t know about this, right? Just – Smith Yeah. Hinshaw You gave them every chance so. Smith Yeah. This comes from we would have inevitably anything that might spark public interest whatever that would be, we would always inevitably end up with a person one house down that didn’t get notice right or I only live two houses down, why didn’t I get notice or I live, I live across, directly across the pond right behind here. Why didn’t I get notice? This is just – Hinshaw And it’s reasonable. Smith Yeah, it’s reasonable. Hinshaw It seems like you should be noticed if you’re 50 feet away. Smith Especially since we don’t have to the $7.50 anymore for a certified letter. They can pay first class mail. That’s a great compromise. Dale Jonathan, do we generate that mailing list for the petitioner? Smith So we do not generate the mailing list. We point them toward the county and the county, I can’t remember exactly what that says but essentially they get it from the county. Oftentimes, well let me put it this way, we have a, I’ll flip it and say Page 31 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 it in a positive – we have a great team, a great staff and our staff is more than willing to confirm the address list. So oftentimes the address list is generated outside of our office and then petitioners sometimes have questions about am I notifying who, our team will happily confirm it but we don’t, we’re not the party that generates it so. Postlethwait So I’m just circling back on the dates for the meetings for next year. Will we or should we discuss some of those dates, the ones that might be challenging? Do you want to take that up over time? You don’t want to do that tonight? I mean – Smith I, I would love to discuss them. As, as he said, there’s going to be two that I suspect January 2nd I suspect that’s going to be a problem but it’s at your discretion. Postlethwait Well – Smith And actually, while I’m sitting here thinking about it, you probably want to sign these Findings too before I forget and let y’all walk out the door without signing these. Postlethwait The other thing we have on our agenda is election of our Vice Chair so – Smith I have a question. Hey Dan, do they sign if they voted no? Does everybody have to sign? Taylor There is, there is really no ____ 1:20:48 about it. If you have it set up with all their names under just their vote then the people who vote in the affirmative sign. Fedor So do I sign or not? No? Taylor No. Postlethwait He voted no. Fedor Yeah, that’s what I thought. Taylor Sometimes there are dual columns, an aye side and a nay side but if it’s just that then you, you do not. Postlethwait So one other question, Jonathan, because when we talk about changing these dates, we also need to be mindful of what else is happening in this building because in the past trying to find a date that works for, for the Board members but also has a room available and there are other parameters, right? Smith Yes ma’am. Postlethwait So – Smith How about we give this, give me a month to figure out days that are open. We have a, a lady that handles our schedules. Let me get with her and I can identify one or two open slots, specifically, for the January 2nd – Page 32 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Postlethwait Okay. Smith And I think you said the July 2nd – Postlethwait January 2nd, July 2nd and I think possibly also the April 2nd. Hinshaw That’s spring break. Fedor Yeah, that’s spring break. That’s right. Postlethwait Spring break. And also I – Mundy The September meeting could be a problem, two days after Labor Day also. Yeah. Smith So January 2, April 2, July 2 and September 3. Postlethwait September 3, yeah. Fedor Not picky at all. Smith We’ll, we’ll figure it out. Hurst ____1:22:31 I think frankly I do but – Postlethwait You mean do people like, other people? Hurst Well, I didn’t this year. Postlethwait So we’ll, you’ll, you’ll bounce back with some possible options? Okay. Smith Yeah and I’ll email you so you’re aware when I find out so you have plenty of time to think about whatever you want to think about. Postlethwait Okay. Whatever I want to think about. Smith Yeah, whatever that is. I’ll give you as many options as I can. Postlethwait Appreciate it. And there’s one other item of business and that is to elect a Vice Chair. We had provisionally elected Josh as the Vice Chair and he said it was provisional but, you know, provisional is like hmm. Fedor Yeah, I’m, I’m here I don’t – Mundy There’s only two months left in the year Josh. Fedor Yeah, if somebody were to nominate me I’d be more than happy to serve. Hurst I nominate Josh Fedor as the Vice Chair. Page 33 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Hinshaw Second. Hurst For two years. Postlethwait Any discussion? All in favor say aye. All Aye. Postlethwait That would be 5, carry 5, vote of 5. Mundy Did you vote? Fedor Yes, I voted aye. Thank you everyone very much. Postlethwait I need to tell you that I’m going to miss November’s meeting so – Hinshaw You’re up. Postlethwait Yeah. Fedor I’m, I’m used to that stuff because Dave does this to me all the time. Let me guess – there’s 50 things up for November or? Smith So we, we got seven new ones, I believe, and then the one continuance. So there’ll be eight actual. Dale Was there a vote on the calendar? Smith A vote has not occurred on the calendar but I don’t think we want one yet because there’s four dates that are going to have to be rescheduled possibly. Postlethwait So maybe what we, what we would do if you would send around the options and then we can all get back to you on whether we’re available and see what the best – Smith Yeah. Postlethwait Availability is for those options, for each date. Smith And just to y’all are aware, I’m starting to send y’all emails blind copied right as opposed to just sending it to all of y’all because my concern is somebody inevitably is going to hit reply all and so just to avoid that, I’ve started blind copying everybody but just know that if you get an email oftentimes, if not every time, everybody’s getting it I’m just trying to prevent a reply all and having any problems pop up. Postlethwait Good. Any further – Mundy This is not a suggestion but just for, for the four other Board members, we’ve not always met on Wednesday evening. As a matter of fact, we changed to Wednesday because a new appointee was, was tied up on Mondays which is Page 34 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 when we used to meet. So, that’s, if Wednesday doesn’t work for most people very well, it can be changed or it has been changed. Postlethwait Well that’s good to know. Mundy And the other thing I hadn’t – I’ll ask Dan and maybe this is just a side conversation but we all got copies of the resident’s remonstrance against the approval of a petition last month and I, I will admit that they were largely right in that when I made the motion I included Findings of Fact by the staff and staff support and that was not the case but my question I guess was when we are approving minutes of the meeting, it is what was said not what we should’ve said or meant to say in many cases. Taylor In your case, your minutes are a transcription and so I actually review them as you should. If you believe the transcriptionist did not transcribe what you said, that’s our focus. Or sometimes there’s an omission because she couldn’t understand what someone said. We seem to clarify that but because of the way you do it, we just are saying that transcription is accurate. Now some other bodies use a summary and someone actually just listens to the tape and then merely reports the action taken which is what the law requires. It really can be as simple as we heard this case, this was our vote that’s what – and who, who, who attended. That’s all that’s really required. You are very transparent. You put your entire record and so if someone says that someone should’ve said something differently, that’s, that’s fine that’s not what we’re approving. We’re not approving that. And we’re also not reapproving a decision. We’re simply saying that reflects what was said. The transcriptionist did her job correctly, there’s no way we could be more transparent than we are being and so I, I, I wouldn’t worry about it. Mundy Okay. Postlethwait Okay. Mundy I thought that was the case but I trust your judgment on that. Postlethwait If there’s nothing else – welcome, we’re glad to have you with us. Hurst Thank you. Glad to finally be here. Postlethwait We’ll stop penalizing you for your, the fact that you missed a couple of meetings. We’re over that so we’re – Hurst Well that’s good. Postlethwait We’re, we’re looking forward – Hurst You can dock my pay. Postlethwait No, we’re looking forward to having you. Page 35 of 36 Zionsville Board of Zoning Appeals October 2, 2024 Hinshaw You’ve only got one left for the year. Postlethwait Thank you all and I guess we’ll see you in November. Fedor No we won’t. Page 36 of 36