Special City Commission Meeting

City of Deltona 2345 Providence Blvd. Deltona, FL 32725 Minutes Special City Commission Meeting Saturday, October 14, 2017 8:30 AM Deltona Commission Chambers 1. CALL TO ORDER: The meeting was called to order at 8:30 a.m. by Mayor Masiarczyk. 2. ROLL CALL – CITY CLERK: Present: 6 - Commissioner Bradford Commissioner Herzberg Commissioner Honaker Commissioner Ramos Mayor Masiarczyk City Manager Shang Absent: 2 - Commissioner Alcantara Vice Mayor Nabicht 3. PLEDGE TO THE FLAG: Mayor Masiarczyk led everyone in the pledge to the flag. 4. NEW BUSINESS: A. Interviews - Candidates for City Attorney Position. Shephard & Smith, P.A. Mayor Masiarczyk explained that each Commissioner has a set of questions which will be asked of each law firm and the 55 minute interview will consist of a five minute introduction, 40 minutes for questions and five minutes for closing statements. Attorney Clifford Shepherd stated the firm is now called Shephard, Smith, Kohlmyer and Hand, P.A. due to a recent addition to the firm and a couple of additional associates. He stated the firm is up to eight lawyers and he introduced the following who were present Attorney Bruce Smith and Attorney Andrew Hand, Attorney Patrick Brackins. All the attorneys introduced work in municipal law and the three shareholders are all certified in municipal law. This is second time the firm has attempted to become Deltona's attorney, the first time was in 2011 and there was a different Commission then. The fact that three shareholders are board certified in municipal law shows what is important to the firm and to be a shareholder the attorney has to be board certified in municipal law because that is the City of Deltona Page 1 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 majority of what the firm does and he explained the process to become board certified. The board certification does have meaning, it is not a joke and it is not something that just anybody can go out and get. As board certified specialists they are the experts in this industry and are held to a higher standard. He stated he is the general counsel for the Florida Redevelopment Association (FRA) and he will be a speaker at the conference to be held in Daytona where he will speak on how to use interlocal agreements with Community Redevelopment Agencies (CRA) and dealing with CRA dollars. He has researched the City which has a new CRA and he provided some history on how Deltona got its CRA. He stated if a Commissioner were to call the FRA for advice on a topic they would be referred to him and he also mentioned that CRAs have become very controversial in the State. He stated the firm's philosophy is keeping things between the lines, they are a full service firm and he explained all the different areas that the firm practices such as real estate closings and construction law to trials. He stated he started his career in trial law and he gave a brief history of how that evolved to where he is now which is all aspects of city, county and government law. Commissioner Ramos asked how many attorneys would be designated or who would be designated to represent the City or have more of the relationship here with the City? Attorney Shephard replied as proposed he would be the designated City Attorney and he would be the one to show up at the meetings on the first and third Monday. It works well with his schedule and the first thing they have to do is check with their other cities meeting schedule. The designated backup Attorney Smith, also board certified and a City Attorney in his own right for the cities of Flagler Beach and Edgewood. Attorney Smith has been his backup for the City of Maitland and other cities. The attorney's within the firm all back each other up when necessary and if neither he nor Attorney Smith were available then Attorney Hand would step in. Attorney Hand is also board certified, he is the City Attorney for the cities of Dunnellon and Davenport which is a new city for them. They are all City Attorney's for various jurisdictions and they back each other up depending on the meeting schedule. Commissioner Herzberg asked what about union contract negotiations and arbitration, is that out sourced or done within the firm? Attorney Shephard replied specifically regarding unions, in all the cities they represent they have retained Labor Attorney Jeff Mandel which is important because union law is a special thing and the entity needs the right advice but, this has been by choice of the entity. This is a good choice because there can be conflicts between the role of City Attorney advising the Commission and the role of the Labor Attorney trying to explain not only the goals of the Commission who sit in judgement of a contract when it is ultimately brought before the Commission for approval and the negotiation role. These are closed door meetings that are one of the true full exceptions to the Sunshine Laws where it is entirely confidential. He stated so the answer is you can do it and they can do it but, in every city that they represent there is a separate labor lawyer for that specific issue of union negotiations. If the question was broadened to labor law such as hiring and firing employees and employee contracts, absolutely that is something they do. City of Deltona Page 2 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 Commissioner Honaker stated the attorney is hired by and reports to the City Commission but, is expected to work successfully with the City Manager and the Department Directors. How will you best serve these relationships? Attorney Shephard replied the how in a large part is based on policy the Commission controls. He can make a suggestion as to what is done in their other cities and how it is best done but, ultimately because the Commission controls the purse strings and how the money is spent and they are officers that report directly to the Commission, the Commission has more control in that regard. First what they suggest is the two types of employees that can come to them directly for questions are the department heads and the City Manager. This is because the Commission does not want the entire organization to be able to pick up the phone and run up the City's legal bill. The Commissioners typically have one on one opportunities directly but, there has been in the past where a Commission wanted to run all questions through one Commissioner and certainly if that is what this Commission decides to do that is fine. As City Attorneys they believe that the best thing they can do is make sure the Commission has confidence in the advice they give without regard to politics or how it lays out. What the Commission needs is to be able to rely on their information and make sure that its coming from the right place which is to keep the Commission out of trouble. The City Attorney's job is not to make policy but, to keep the Commission out of trouble. Mayor Masiarczyk read Commissioner Alcantara's question, based on the potential legal needs of a municipality, would a contract with your firm be all-inclusive? If not, what potential needs would not be covered by your firm? Attorney Shephard replied they are not going to go out and place the City in the bond market. Bonds are just loans and there are specialized attorneys who do this such as Akerman, LLP who Deltona has used in the past and he explained the bond process. It is important that the municipal bond lawyer not be them because they also have to provide what is called the issuers council opinion which is a legal opinion done every time a bond is placed and he gave a detailed explanation. So it is not all aspects of that but, portions of that and everything else whether labor, police, environment, zoning, land use, trial law and litigation, there is not any of those things they do not do and done a lot. Commissioner Bradford asked what is your biggest contribution going to be for the future growth of Deltona and how are you going to accomplish this for everyone, equally and fairly? Attorney Shephard replied he tried to ascertain by looking at minutes and other things where the City is trying to go and he knows for example the community center is a big deal that is going to come online later this year. He stated he also knows that one of the things the City has attempted to do since 1995 is to formulate a sense of place or downtown. The City will not find a firm that has done that more frequently than them and he gave several examples. He stated they do not have the vision for Deltona because it is the Commission's City of Deltona Page 3 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 community but, they can document the projects and make them come to life. He stated the Commission will not speak to a candidate that has done as much and as well as them. Mayor Masiarczyk stated tell us about a conflict you experienced in which either an elected official or a senior staff member disagreed with some legal advice you were providing. How did you navigate this situation? Attorney Shephard replied at a meeting in Maitland early on in his career the Council had a development issue causing controversy. Four of the Councilmembers were ready to proceed and the Mayor asked him if he was ready and he replied he was. There was one Councilmember who was not happy because he did not get the material in time to look it over during the weekend. He stated he was put in a no win situation which he did not realize at the time and when the meeting took a break he went to the unhappy Councilmember and apologized but, that Councilmember told him he did not care what he thinks and pointed out to the audience and he stated he cared about what they think. He stated that impression on him had not been lost and in his goal to earnestly serve he has to also recognize that the Commission has a role too that goes beyond getting it right but, it is also to make sure the public knows the Commission is engaged, interested and hardworking and for him not to call that role into question. He stated he would tell each Commissioner if asked, one on one and not in a public meeting, what he thinks based on his experience whether a decision is good or bad. His job is to try to make the entire Commission believe that where he is coming from is a place of giving correct advice and let the policy fall out the way the policy is going to fall out. Commissioner Ramos asked in your experience, what role have you played to facilitate communication and how do you avoid selective communication? Attorney Shephard replied emails are a big deal, he lives in front of the computer during the day responding to the various questions from the cities, CRAs, and the hospital board he represents. The computer is used specifically because it provides a written record and all that they ask is that the requester provide a deadline for requests. In terms of the question to make sure the communications are even, this is a cautious question because if you are automatically copying everybody on the Commission on everything it invites and "reply alls" which are the vein of his existence. It would be left up to the City Manager to determine which communications to send to all the Commission. He stated he does not want to invite political or policy debates when all he is trying to do is answer the question. The Commission cannot expect the answer to be better than the facts that are provided and they are only as good as the facts that were provided and the answer is only as correct as the facts provided. What can happen is the attorney can be stuck in the middle of a battle where the Commission gets half the story from one party, another half from somebody else and the answer is going to shift and the blame goes to the person giving the answer. He stated in order to communicate fairly they simply ask to get all the facts. Commissioner Herzberg stated that there are times in the middle of a Commission hearing that an issue comes up that pertains to something that is going to be voted on and it is City of Deltona Page 4 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 possible that additional information is brought forward, something was missed, or maybe a member of the public will point something out. How do you handle something like that from a legal standpoint or how would you handle that situation? Attorney Shephard replied it happens very frequently, it is one of the things they specifically have addressed internally and the shareholders have learned through experience, discussions and attending meetings. There is a movie called U-571 and there is a part in the movie where a novice second in command gets thrust into command and he is now underwater with a whole bunch of people depending on him to survive. He has the crew gathered around him and the question comes up which he does not remember but, he remembers the answer which is "I don't know I'll get back to you on that." Now his second in command takes him aside and says "permission to speak freely sir, I just need you to understand that there is one person on this boat who can never say I don't know and that is you because everybody's life on this boat depends on you." He stated this is how he sees the firm's role in this situation and it is important because a. the Commission wants to make the right decision and not be in a position where it could be embarrassed and b. now is the moment, not two weeks from now at the next meeting and the Commission needs to have that ability. He thinks it is fair for him to say that they are really good at thinking on their feet but, it is also important to hear that there are times when the information is so new and so significant that the only option is to take an opportunity to study the new information and determining which time is which. Commissioner Honaker stated most legal departments do not get involved in matters that generate funds for a City; the Deltona Legal Department does. The legal department is actively involved in the processing and collecting of Code Compliance Department and Municipal liens, and has negotiated an agreement with a third party vendor to conduct foreclosure registrations for Deltona, which generates approximately $400,000 for Deltona's General Fund every year. Will your firm continue that support under your proposal as written; and what other techniques or processes has your firm implemented to generate funds for municipalities? Attorney Shephard replied interesting that it is code enforcement, in the other cities they represent code enforcement is a unique animal in that there is always an internal debate as to whether it should be complaint driven or proactive. He does not know what category the City falls in but, most if not all of the cities wait for complaints to come in and do not seek them out. This is primarily, in his opinion, based on what he has heard the elected officials say the City is not looking to harass citizens and citizens would take offense by turning code into a money maker but, this has no effect on the attorney. Whatever way is good for Deltona he would 100% support that. Attorney Smith stated code enforcement is the first thing he delve into and he has been prosecuting code enforcement cases for all of the 15 years he has been doing this. He is now the code enforcement hearing officer for the City of St. Cloud and for most of the cities the firm represents he is the code enforcement guy. Mayor Masiarczyk read Commissioner Alcantara's question, would a contract with your firm include all necessary personnel or will taxpayers have to pay for additional staff for your City of Deltona Page 5 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 office? Attorney Shephard replied the firm does not charge the City to hire staff, only charges for lawyer time and there really is not any paralegal work in City work for them. Commissioner Bradford asked you said you have watched our meetings, what are some changes you would recommend? Attorney Shephard replied he was very interested in whether the City had a CRA knowing what an incredible vehicle that can be and knowing that is in his wheelhouse. He was hoping to help the City set up a plan which is the key core document that states how the CRA operates. In the early phases of a CRA the City does not make money and it may end up costing the City money from the General Fund until the City starts making revenue to pay it back. If the City puts together the right kind of projects and attracts the right kind of development the numbers can turn quickly. There used to be a time that a City could take Tax Increment Financing (TIF) that a City gets from a CRA and use that projected TIF to get a bond today. He would like to see the City maximize that vehicle and focus the City in that direction and things that are actually doable. In terms of how the City overall operates, he can read and he understands there have been some issues as there are in every City. As a general statement the more the Commission works together and respects things that are divergent the better off the City will be. Other than that, the idea of having a goal such as a sense of place so Deltona can get beyond the sleeping giant and be the giant it is of Volusia County but, the City has not gotten to that place. Mayor Masiarczyk asked how would you handle a situation where, in your opinion, you felt the Commission or Commissioner was delving into an area outside their responsibilities as outlined in the City Charter? Attorney Smith replied he was the one who prosecuted the case in the City of DeBary against the Mayor, he has known for years this side of the equation and he got brought into the side where everything falls apart. When somebody's actions have risen to that level of everyone on the council thinking a Councilmember is doing the wrong thing, that is what got them there. He stated he does not like it, he did not like having to be in that role but, it was his role and he had to do it. What he would much rather do as a City Attorney is to never ever get there. He stated he would pull that Commissioner aside, have the one on one conversation to explain this is what the charter says, this is why it says it, this is what it means and this is where the Commission is getting close to a line or where the Commissioner has crossed the line. This needs to be done early, as soon as the problem arises. The question came up how they deal with spur of the moment information and he always wants to give the Commission enough rein so that the Commission is the one making the policies but, he always wants to keep his hands on that rein so the Commission never falls off the cliff. Commissioner Ramos asked reference to time and response, what is the turnaround time in reference to the City, what is the firm's response time? City of Deltona Page 6 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 Attorney Smith replied that is why there are four attorneys here today, they work as a team, their ability to work together even though each of the attorneys represents their own cities, and each of them work for each others cities. With that teamwork approach they are able to handle any deadline. Commissioner Herzberg asked how would the firm handle either interlocal agreements or issues that would affect Deltona and one of the other cities the firm represents? Attorney Shephard replied one of the things they has not done is apply to cities that share boundaries because the conflicts could be substantial and those kind of conflicts only arise if a boundary is shared. Deltona is not in that situation and it would not be a problem to have one set of negotiating criteria and goals for one city regarding how they deal with the county and Deltona or Flagler Beach or others. It really is that simple but, one of the things that is helpful is that they have experience with other cities and doing things Deltona may wish to do, they have already done it. Several of the cities they represent have adopted an economic development tax credit for developers to be able to offer a rebate or tax credit on property taxes for up to ten years if it provides enough jobs or whatever the Commission sets as the criteria. Commissioner Honaker asked based on your preparation for this interview, what are the most important legal challenges facing the City of Deltona? Attorney Shephard replied there are always struggles over growth and development and how to grow. It is very easy for a community to determine what it is against but, it is difficult to determine what it is for. Trying to form a vision for how the City can move forward to that place it wants to be are usually the things that create battles and turnover on councils. Across the board of all the cities they represent growth and development are the issues but, he is uncertain if that is always the issue for Deltona. He can see that going out and getting a CRA and not giving up on that dream is important to the City but, it is not the be all end all. This is the Commission that is here today and as the Commission changes the vision could change. Forming the vision is important but, so is economic reality and having a finger on the economic market place. He has been frequently asked to pigeon hold restrictions so that certain kinds of development do not come but, he is rarely asked the right question which is what does the City do to get the right kind of businesses to come. This is started by creating a dialog with those businesses. Ultimately if there is a sense overall in the City to work on parks and infrastructure, making sure people are proud of their City, then the Commission is doing okay. Mayor Masiarczyk read Commissioner Alcantara's question, with Union negotiations around the corner, can you tell us about your firm's experience in negotiating Union contracts. Tell us about tough challenges you faced and how you overcame that challenge. Attorney Shephard replied he has been involved in labor negotiations many times with police and fire unions and general employee unions. He has been in on those meetings with City of Deltona Page 7 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 a labor lawyer such as Labor Attorney Jeff Mandel, the City Manager, one councilmember and either the Fire Chief or Police Chief to come up with what they are looking at and how to proceed. Typically the labor lawyer then communicates back to the union lawyer to see if a contract can be hammered out and in a couple of cases it has been hammered out and in a couple it has gone to impasse where the council makes the decision. The biggest issue he has had is getting the elected official to keep their mouth shut. Those negotiating sessions are not to be used as political fodder on a re-election campaign and it is not a good position to be in as a City Attorney. Commissioner Bradford asked why do you want to work for the City of Deltona? Attorney Shephard replied he personally, has gotten to the point where he does not just apply to every City. Deltona is a sleeping giant but, the emphasis needs to go less on the sleeping and more on the giant. To him this is the perfect opportunity to use his skills and tools he has honed over his 20 years of doing this type of work. He has been a lawyer for almost 33 years, 20 years for cities and about 40% of the practice is private clients and litigation. This is the area he has taken special interest in, building cities much like the SIMS game. He stated if you are a lawyer and you try to explain to your kids what it is you do, they do not get it but, show them a building and say I had something to do with that, then they start asking questions and you have something to explain. Deltona is a pallet, this is something where he can actually show a result and he hope to show it to the Commission. Mayor Masiarczyk asked sometimes matters come up outside of the normal business week or after hours. What will be your availability to the Commission or City Manager should issues arise? Attorney Shephard replied emails and text are what the firm lives by and he gave examples of answering these types of communications at all hours of the night and day. Mayor Masiarczyk called for a recess at 9:27 a.m. and reconvened at 9:33 a.m. Fishback Dominick Mayor Masiarczyk explained that each Commissioner has a set of questions which will be asked of each law firm and the 55 minute interview will consist of a five minute introduction, 40 minutes for questions and five minutes for closing statements. Attorney Rick Geller introduced the members of his team Kurt Ardiman, Dan Langley, Eric Jontz and Chris Conley and if chosen Attorney Ardiman and he will serve as the City's principle attorneys. He stated he would attend the Commission meetings and any other boards the Commission deems appropriate. For the first three months both himself and Attorney Ardiman together will attend the Commission meetings. The Commission will have their cell phones and they will be available to the Commission. Attorney Ardiman's family founded the firm 82 years ago which makes them one of the oldest law firms in Central Florida. The attorneys in the firm think about that legacy every day and try to live up to it. The firm represents five cities to include Belle Isle - 40 years, Winter Garden - 19 years, DeBary City of Deltona Page 8 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 - 17 years, Longwood - 7 years and Winter Park - 2 years. The firm also has some private clients which they have represented for more than half a century. The firm's attorneys would serve at the Commission's pleasure but, are at the prime of their careers and looking for a long term attorney/client relationship. All of the cities they represent are different but, they do share some common attributes and he explained several of them. The firm’s main objective is to help the Commission achieve its objectives, goals and vision for the City. Attorney Geller explained the essential role they have played in the City of Winter Garden’s renaissance and that their legal fingerprints are all over the beautiful business district. If the Commission decides it needs a business district there is no firm more qualified to help the City achieve that than Fishback Dominick. If the Commission decides it wants a downtown it will need to be formed based zoning codes which he has taught to students at Rollins College and he is the author of legal law review article on the topic as well. He listed some of his qualifications such as counsel to Commissions and staff, Orange County Zoning Commissioner, adjudicating quasi-judicial proceedings, litigation counsel and code enforcement counsel for many cities. He stated he has spearheaded legislative responses to the tax on home rule. Who the City hires as the City Attorney is important and just as important is the team around that attorney. Attorney Ardiman has practiced as a City Attorney for more than 30 years and the City will not find anyone more knowledgeable or experienced than him. He turns regularly to Attorney Langley for his expertise in land and zoning matters and all the attorneys are AV Preeminent rated to have the highest competency and legal ethics. He stated in 25 years of practicing law he has rarely encountered a legal writer as good as Attorney Conley and he says that as a former law review editor. Attorney Jontz graduated from Dartmouth, one of the top law schools in the South. He and Attorneys Ardiman and Langley surround themselves with the best and brightest. They have applied for the position in part because they believe that not only representing Deltona but, DeBary as well would lead to shared synergies between DeBary and Deltona. In 17 years he has never encountered a legal conflict between the two cities. They will selectively represent private clients before local governments who they do not represent. Their approach is that when possible avoid unnecessary fights, conflicts and litigation but, when needed will advocate fiercely for its clients. Commissioner Ramos asked how many attorneys would be designated or who would be designated to represent the City or have more of the relationship here with the CIty? Attorney Geller replied himself and Attorney Ardiman would be the principle City Attorneys. Attorney Ardiman replied no single lawyer is going to be available 24/7 but, he and Attorney Geller will initially attend the Commission meetings the first couple of months, however, he will not be able to come to each meeting but, every other meeting because he has a conflict. Both he and Attorney Geller will be here to learn the issues, what is affecting the City, why the Commission wants to do what it wants to do and at that point they will have a better understanding of the City’s needs and issues are. This way if Attorney Geller is in a trial then he would be the attorney. Commissioner Herzberg asked what is your procedure and experience with union contract negotiations and arbitration, how would you handle that and who in your firm would handle City of Deltona Page 9 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 that or would you bring in a labor attorney? Attorney Geller replied they think it is critical to bring in an outside labor attorney. It is important for the City Attorney to have good relations with the Fire and Police Departments and if the City Attorney is involved in those negotiations it takes on an adversarial role which can cause some friction. It is much safer to bring in outside counsel who are qualified labor employment lawyers. Attorney Ardiman replied this is what they do with the other cities they represent and it is working exceptionally well because if something happens where there is an issue from the Commission's standpoint then they are able to counsel the Commission independently from the labor attorney. Commissioner Honaker stated the attorney is hired by and reports to the City Commission but, is expected to work successfully with the City Manager and the Department Directors. How will you best serve these relationships? Attorney Geller replied communication which is key, the Commission, City Manager and key staff will have their cell phone numbers as deemed appropriate. Attorney Ardiman replied it is absolutely critical, that day to day interaction and is one of the reasons their clients like them. They receive calls and emails from the City Managers, City Commissioners, Department Directors and how they respond to that, the timeliness and manner is important. As counsel the firm does not represent the City Manager, the Commission or the Department Directors but, the City of Deltona and the Commission makes the decisions for the entire City. If the Commission was going to make a decision that was going to be a problem they would do everything it can to help the Commission avoid that problem and solve the problem yet if it came down to it and it puts the City at great risk they would tell the Commission that. They ask a lot of questions, find out what the details are and their objective is not to say everything is legal, that is just one part of their job. They avoid litigation at all costs because it is a big tax payer expense and they have found it is much more effective to avoid it. Mayor Masiarczyk read Commissioner Alcantara's question, based on the potential legal needs of a municipality, would a contract with your firm be all-inclusive? If not, what potential needs would not be covered by your firm? Attorney Geller replied it is in the City's interest that outside insurance counsel handle the liability claims. One of the first things they do is to make sure that the insurer is on notice of potential claims and when outside counsel can be brought in that is to the City's benefit. Attorney Ardiman replied this way the City does not have to pay them as much tax payer money, the firm uses the City's insurance lawyers where appropriate, however, they will oversee these matters because they know the City much better than some insurance lawyer. The heavy lifting, the greater expense they give to the insurance lawyer and typically they will bring in a labor lawyer and bond counsel. Commissioner Bradford asked what is your biggest contribution going to be for the future growth of Deltona and how are you going to accomplish this for everyone, equally and City of Deltona Page 10 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 fairly? Attorney Geller replied the Commission are the policy makers and set the direction for the City. Their job is to help the Commission achieve its objectives. He does not want to presume to set policy; that is up to the Commission. Attorney Ardiman replied they are not the 8th Commissioner. Every City has its challenges, Deltona has specific challenges, they do not presume to know what the Commission wants to focus on the most. He and Attorney Geller are heavily involved in the trail system, he cannot promote it but, he has talked about how to introduce folks to the trail that would be appropriate to the Commission. The City can use the coast to coast connector which they have close connections with and both Attorney Geller and Ardiman elaborated on that connection and work the firm has done with Winter Gardens regarding trails. Mayor Masiarczyk stated tell us about a conflict you experienced in which either an elected official or a senior staff member disagreed with some legal advice you were providing. How did you navigate this situation? Attorney Geller replied they can tell staff and the Commission what the law is and requires but, cannot force anyone to do anything in particular. Attorney Ardiman replied it does not happen often but, as the lawyers they will give the advice and sometime there will be that conflict between that elected official and the City. At that point which rarely happens, they have to tell staff or the elected official they need to have their own counsel. The firm does not like to do that but, that ethically and for the Commission's or the staff's protection that is what happens. Now the reason it happens so rarely with them is because they will explain in detail what the issues are and why somebody should or should not do something. He stated 98% of the time that makes sense to the staff, City Manager and the elected official and they will take the advice and it is no problem. What happens if that advice is not given, conflict is there and at that point the attorney has no choice. Commissioner Ramos asked in experience what role have you played to facilitate communication and how do you avoid selective communication? Attorney Geller replied the firm just recently dealt with that, the state legislature passed a statute allowing telecommunication companies to put all sorts of stuff in the City's right-of-way. One of their cities was going off trying to find out different ways of responding to this. A very simple thing he did was call a meeting with all the department heads to discuss the statute and how the City was going to respond to it which seemed to resolve the issue. Attorney Ardiman replied when they get a decision or a request to do something from a department head, elected official or the Mayor, it does not really matter, the attorney has to use judgement which is inconsistent with what the Commission has adopted as its objectives, ordinances or policies. The firm tries to resolve these issues quickly but, if they cannot the attorney goes to the City Manager to make the call who may say great question but, that is a Commission decision. They are very careful not to allow two directions to happen or miscommunications to happen because they are helping the City manage the public trust, it is a privilege but, a huge responsibility. City of Deltona Page 11 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 Commissioner Herzberg stated during a Commission meeting something occurs pointed out by a Commissioner or a member of the public regarding an ordinance coming up for a reading and someone says this was not properly noticed or this was not handled this way or there was some other information that maybe is going to be problematic, it comes up right during the meeting. How would you handle that and how would you prepare for something like that? Attorney Geller replied if there is a problem with notice of an ordinance then it would have to be re-noticed and kick the can down the road to the next meeting or it might be a defect in the notice that might be inconsequential. That is a legal judgement call and depends on the circumstance. Attorney Ardiman replied notice is a huge issue and they are very protective of that as all cities and counties should be. Typically if there is a conflict the Commissioners will call in advance and they determine based on their determination whether it is or is not a conflict. The Commissioner will want something from the attorney that tells them they are okay because that gives the Commissioner protection under the statutes. At the meeting somebody says but, what about this substantive change and the first thing is to determine can the change be made. The first thing to evaluate is whether the change can be made, is it the second reading of the ordinance, if the change is no longer encompassed within the title and needs to be readvertised. That is a judgement call and they will give the Commission that advice on the spot. Sometimes if the public provides a federal statute that says the Commission cannot do what it is planning to do then the attorney will try to get a copy of the statute if they have not already seen it and make the determination at the meeting or maybe they will tell the Commission they do not know the answer. If the ordinance needs to be passed then maybe the Commission will decide to call a special meeting but, they will find a way to achieve the objective. Commissioner Honaker stated most legal departments do not get involved in matters that generate funds for a City; the Deltona Legal Department does. The legal department is actively involved in the processing and collecting of Code Compliance Department and Municipal liens, and has negotiated an agreement with a third party vendor to conduct foreclosure registrations for Deltona, which generates approximately $400,000 for Deltona's General Fund every year. Will your firm continue that support under your proposal as written; and what other techniques or processes has your firm implemented to generate funds for municipalities? Attorney Geller replied they have passed ordinances in the cities they represent where their legal fees get charged to developers, which is one aspect of it. Attorney Ardiman replied not only legal fees, in fact they were one of the first law firms to recommend to its cities to adopt that and he explained the process adopted by DeBary. Why should the tax payers pay the City Attorney, City surveyor or City planner when the developer is going to make a lot of money on their project so they encourage in their cities to pass the ordinance very effectively. Their proposal contains that so if this Commission likes that code enforcement recovery then they would support that. They strongly encourage the pass-through into the future and they would work with the City's grant writer to help find grants or public private City of Deltona Page 12 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 partnerships, there is a whole host of things the City can do. Attorney Geller stated Attorney Jontz has significant experience in bankruptcy court, this is a capability that many law firms do not have. Mayor Masiarczyk read Commissioner Alcantara's question, would a contract with your firm include all necessary personnel or will taxpayers have to pay for additional staff for your office? Attorney Geller replied it includes all staff, the firm is fully staffed with very qualified paralegals who have been working on municipal matters many years and the firm has legal assistants that assist with administrative tasks, that is all included in the hourly fees. Commissioner Bradford asked you said you have watched our meetings, what are some changes you would recommend? Attorney Geller replied he attended one of the Commission meetings, he watched the strategic planning workshop and there is nothing he could identify with. As an observer of what he has seen nothing really jumped out at him. Attorney Ardiman replied one thing that happens which is important, between yourselves coming to an agreement about what the Commission wants to do. That sometimes is very difficult because there will be polarized positions. So having a very good staff to bring to the Commission options to vet and resolve the Commission's differences to come to a decision is important. They have seen changes, there are long term staff members and if the City has great staff, lawyers and consultants the Commission will have what it needs to do the hard work which is flushing out and resolving the differences between yourselves and then coming up with the vision, policy and direction that the Commission wants to go in. Mayor Masiarczyk asked how would you handle a situation where, in your opinion, you felt the Commission or Commissioner was delving into an area outside their responsibilities as outlined in the City Charter? Attorney Geller replied in person they would counsel that Commissioner and explain the charter provision and try to contain those types of things early on. Attorney Ardiman replied each person as an elected official has its own objectives and thoughts, some folks think their objective should be sit back, come to the meeting and make the policy decision. Some elected officials say no, the people elected me and I need to be in City Hall every day talking to staff making sure their finger is on the pulse and that the Commission's direction is being followed. They have had those issues a lot and they try to resolve the issues outside of a public meeting. Most of the time it is not a problem but, when it is the attorney talks it through, sometimes it bubbles up and they have a discussion at the Commission level in public to discuss what is happening and why that is or is not appropriate. He stated he is sure everyone is aware of examples where that got so bad in some cities that it resulted in unwanted public hearings and strong result but, that is the first time in his 33 years this ever happened. City of Deltona Page 13 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 Commissioner Ramos asked as it related to response time and he knows sometimes it depends on the issue or the challenge, what time frame would the Commission see in reference to the Commission or the City Manager? Attorney Geller replied it depends on the issue, if it is something that they can give an answer off the cuff then it is instantaneous or if it has to be researched, it depends on the magnitude of the research such as a federal statute or voluminous case law or if it is just a couple of cases to look at regarding a state statute for example they will have an answer within the hour or a few hours. Attorney Ardiman replied they will get back to the requester so they will know very quickly with the answer or how long it will take to get the answer. Commissioner Herzberg asked knowing that you represent other municipalities and those that border us how would you deal with interlocal agreements and other intergovernmental things that might come up for example the half cent sales tax referendum that is a possibility and other interlocal agreements. How would you handle that and how would you divide your loyalties among the municipalities that you represent? Attorney Geller replied what is really critical here is that your interests and DeBary's interests are aligned. If voters approve the half cent sales tax which could generate upwards of $40 million a year, how that gets allocated is critical. He would imagine that Deltona would like to see those funds allocated based on population, the interests of DeBary and Deltona are perfectly aligned there. If there is an interlocal agreement of some sort and he does not know what it is sitting here today, where DeBary and Deltona have to have an arm's length negotiation then they would need to step aside from that. Attorney Ardiman replied they thought about that long and hard before they put in the application and they vetted that amongst themselves, some folks in the City of DeBary and they could not find a conflict over the 19 years they have represented DeBary. What they saw is Deltona and DeBary are neighbors in West Volusia County, some folks in the rest of the county have a different view of the area and they think that bridge with legal counsel between DeBary and Deltona could be a great asset. They represent the City of Winter Garden, they have been asked to work with the adjacent cities to consider very seriously to acquire its own elected municipality, just like Winter Park did. In Deltona's and DeBary's case it is not just that potential, if Deltona is not satisfied with its cable provider for example and there are so many things. Together Deltona and DeBary have a common boundary, two common interchanges, both have political boundaries on the river and a great population base and the more they thought about it the more synergy Deltona has. So now if Deltona decides to pursue something for example the homeless shelter, they think they can take it far beyond that, so they see it as a great positive. Attorney Geller stated if the Commission were to look in the Orlando Sentinel this morning and it is rare that these things become public, there is an article about Winter Garden looking to Winter Park as the example for having its own utility and perhaps taking over the cable TV franchise. They are the ones behind the scenes facilitating those communications and ideas. They expect to do much of the same if Deltona were to become one of their cities. They have discussed the matter with the leadership, the City Manager, Mayor and Vice Mayor of DeBary and they are all in favor of them representing Deltona as well. City of Deltona Page 14 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 Commissioner Honaker asked based on your preparation for this interview, what are the most important legal challenges facing the City of Deltona? Attorney Ardiman replied it is not just Deltona, it is DeBary, Winter Garden, Winter Park, Longwood and all their cities. It is the cities they do not represent, the counties, and it is an attack by the Florida Legislature on the home rule authority. The government closest to the people is the strongest and they think the most appropriate representation is under attack. He stated he serves on the Statewide Steering Committee for the Florida Municipal Attorney's Association who has a major seminar once a year. This communications facility, the statute that passed really takes away Deltona's authority and all local government's authority to protect their rights of way to make sure it is consistent. Some of their cities have adopted very powerful ordinances that push the limits of their authority and may actually end up being a conflict but, the League of Cities has stepped in. They have worked very carefully over the last three to five months with the League of Cities council and talked about what they can do as cities to protect their authority as cities. He gave a very detailed history of the Florida Legislature attacking home rule authority and the efforts of the League of Cities, lawyers and their firms spearheading an effort to help present to the Consitutional Revision Commission (CRC) ways to enhance cities and counties home rule powers and authority to the voters. What they have presented will pass but, what they need help with is to have every one of their cities identify people they may know, including this Commission to spread the word so they can be in the best position possible. He stated if any of the Commissioners knows any of the 37 members to actually communicate with them and help achieve the League of Cities amendment that is going to be proposed at the end of the month. He stated before he leaves he will pass out a list of the 37 members of the CRC to each Commissioner and he asked them if they knew any of them to let him know. Mayor Masiarczyk read Commissioner Alcantara's question, with Union negotiations around the corner, can you tell us about your firm's experience in negotiating Union contracts. Tell us about tough challenges you faced and how you overcame that challenge. Attorney Geller replied he thinks they answered a similar question already. Attorney Langley replied the firm has several cities that have unions and he thinks the best role for the City Attorney is to facilitate the use of a labor employment lawyer. As stated before, the firm works day to day with the City Manager, staff, Police Department, Fire Department and the Commission. It is important to have the ability to continue those good relationships and so the firm thinks it is a better practice to have an outside lawyer to handle the labor employment aspect of the union. Now, day to day employment stuff, that stuff the firm handles all the time. Commissioner Bradford asked why do you want to be our City Attorney, why Deltona? Attorney Geller replied they touched on synergies with DeBary, they love what they do and take their job very seriously. It is not uncommon to turn on the cable TV and see Attorney Ardiman representing some of their cities, he is practicing law with a smile. Attorney City of Deltona Page 15 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 Ardiman replied being next to DeBary is important geographically but, the legal mechanisms and issues that face DeBary face Deltona. DeBary hired the firm in the year 2000, DeBary had some extremely rough years and he has been asked why stay. His reply would be times are going to be tough and times are going to be good but, the firm sticks by its clients when the times are bad, they do not bail out and are long term. That is why the firm has been around for almost 85 years and on the private side the firm has multiple generations. The Commissions change, one Commission works well together and others do not, the firm has been able to help navigate all of them. DeBary is on very good ground now, he expects to see great things and he thinks they have done a very good job of bringing them back. They cannot stop people from doing some things but, it can certainly solve problems they have and guide and help them avoid those problems. He passed out the list of CRC members previously mentioned during the interview to each of the Commissioners. Mayor Masiarczyk asked sometimes matters come up outside of the normal business week or after hours. What will be your availability to the Commission or City Manager or members of the Commission for that matter outside of the times? Email is good but, the City has a couple of Commissioners that do not check their email so what is the firm's method of responding after hours? Attorney Geller replied they do not work banker's hours, he is often in the office until 7:00 p.m. to begin with, the Commission will have his cell phone number and he is available 24/7. Attorney Ardiman replied the Commission will also have his cell phone number, he is available weekends and nights. People ask them what is their weakness and that is probably their biggest weakness. It creates difficult home lives because they do put their clients first and if the Commission chooses to hire them they will be available whenever needed, it does not matter what time. If it is 2:00 a.m. you may have a response right then or first thing in the morning but, the Commission will get a response. Attorney Geller replied his wife is a pediatrician and on call so he is used to calls coming in late at night. It is very rare that he has a late night call on a legal matter but, it has happened once or twice. Mayor Masiarczyk stated the Commission got through its questions so if Attorney Geller would like the other members of the firm to share a minute or so with the Commission. Attorney Conley stated just to touch upon an earlier question, as far as communication goes and selective communication, one of their biggest strengths is that they understand they are not an additional Commissioner. They advise the Commission on what the law is and to the extent they are crafting an ordinance and dealing with staff, they realize that they do not know everything about a particular area, they are an expert on it and they need to set the policy or the Commission needs to set the policy and give them input. So he thinks that is just a mechanism built in but, knowing what their role is as far as not being selective in its communication and not setting policy. Attorney Jontz stated his principle strength is litigation, he does a fair amount of bankruptcy but, he also does some municipal work as well for example he helped negotiate the City of Deltona Page 16 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 contract between Winter Park and the Orange County Public Schools to make use of two school playgrounds to be available after hours. Attorney Ardiman stated they did not touch on public/private partnership or public/public partnerships. They are extremely familiar and have done many agreements between their cities and the county, the cities and school boards. They believe if the Commission thinks it is appropriate that they have a great strength and have accomplished multiple agreements like that such as the public's ability to use a field after hours. The firm, outside of its legal role, has pushed that and most of their Commissions love that idea. For the Commission's information, it does not apply yet to school boards but, if the Commission had a use to do so or someone had an outdoor recreational use for a facility the liability there is very diminished. There is a statute that is in place which needs to be expanded by the legislature to specifically include school boards and cities. He stated a number of the Commissioners asked the question about availability, Attorney Geller was scheduled to be with his wife's family in Argentina this week and he cancelled that and rebought another very expensive ticket so he could be here. The attorney's with their firm do that and have done it before, it is not just Deltona. They are all in when it comes to their clients. Attorney Geller stated clients really do come first, this interview is important to them and to the Commission. All of their clients are extraordinarily important. Attorney Langley stated he has 15 years of experience, he has represented DeBary since 2003 who is the first City client he has worked with. He has a lot of experience in land use, he helps several of their clients with their day to day issues, and he thinks one of the strengths of the firm is they are a full civil practice firm. They have the ability to do all areas of law such as real estate, land use, and private and public development. He stated he cannot remember losing a land use case in DeBary which is the compliment he always receives and they like to avoid litigation as much as possible. Mayor Masiarczyk called a recess at 10:29 a.m. and reconvened at 10:39 am. Fowler, O'Quinn, Feeney & Sneed Mayor Masiarczyk explained that each Commissioner has a set of questions which will be asked of each law firm and the 55 minute interview will consist of a five minute introduction, 40 minutes for questions and five minutes for closing statements. Attorney Fowler replied as the Mayor just indicated the Commission knows them, he has been here for seven or eight months now, this is their third time working for Deltona in about 10 years or so and maybe the third time is the charm. He has a certain soft spot for Deltona, he has always had his eye on the City and he is pleased to be here. Attorney Segal-George replied that she has been doing a lot of the day to day work since February. She attended the February Commission meeting which was a challenging meeting and she stayed in the audience throughout the meeting. She enjoys the work that she has done for the City, she enjoys working with staff and the Commission. The City has a lot of challenges but, she and Attorney Fowler have a lot of experience in government. She has been a City City of Deltona Page 17 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 Manager, County Manager, City Attorney and County Attorney so she comes from different perspectives in dealing with things. She understands staff's and the City Manager's concerns, she feels very strongly about local government and she does this work because she really loves it. She really likes working for the Commission and she would like to continue working with the Commission and move the City forward. Commissioner Ramos asked how many attorneys would be designated or who would be designated to represent the City or have more of the relationship here with the City? Attorney Fowler replied it depends on topic but, 98% of the time it will be him or Attorney Segal-George. There are other attorneys in the firm that might work on or join them on working on a particular project. Commissioner Herzberg asked would your firm provide the contract, the negotiations or do you contract out? What do you do for our union negotiations, how would you represent that, how would you handle that? Attorney Fowler replied labor negotiations typically in his experience are handled by a specialty firm and there are a couple of reasons for that. One, is because it is a very specialized area and two, it sometimes puts the Commission against a lot of the employees and he has always found that communication between the employees is essential to get the job done. If someone will not talk to him and there is something going on he cannot address it. He thinks, generally speaking, that cities are better off using a separate labor counsel so there is no rub. Attorney Segal-George replied both of them have represented police and fire on a number of occasions in their careers and they both offer advise to the departments on a lot of other issues. This does not mean that they would not represent the Fire Department on a daily basis and it depends on what the Commission thinks is coming with regards to the negotiations. If the Commission knows it is going to have a contentious situation or an issue or position that the City wants to take that is going to cause a rub with the Fire Department particularly, that is something that has to be discussed to make a determination and recommendation based on what is known. If it is a simple issue the firm can handle it but, if it is something that could get complex so that the City would be in an adversarial position, in that case she would suggest specialized counsel. Commissioner Honaker stated the attorney is hired by and reports to the City Commission but, is expected to work successfully with the City Manager and the Department Directors. How will you best serve these relationships? Attorney Segal-George replied this is a particular focus for her, she is manager lawyer meaning the City hired her as a lawyer but, the manager brain never goes away and is always part of how she frames things. With her the City gets somebody who is very tuned into staff, the City Manager and management issues. While she is going to give a legal opinion based on the law, she also understands some of the other issues that come up and can deal with them. She is very proactive, she tries to help the Directors because she does City of Deltona Page 18 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 not want to wait until something blows up in their face and she wants to be involved. She tells the Directors to call her sooner rather than later and that she always has their back in the sense of helping them come to a good result and deal with the problem. They believe in a team approach and they are part of the team which includes the City Manager, City Attorney, staff and department employees. They all have to work together and get along and she is particularly good at that. Attorney Fowler replied he agreed with Attorney Segal-George and whenever he comes to the City he makes a point to go around and introduce himself. He asks things like what is going on, how is everyone and is there anything he should know about. He spends a few minutes with each Department Director just to touch base with them, communication is so essential to operating an organization and he cannot express it enough. Mayor Masiarczyk read Commissioner Alcantara's question, based on the potential legal needs of a municipality, would a contract with your firm be all-inclusive? If not, what potential needs would not be covered by your firm? Attorney Fowler replied it would be all inclusive up to a point, where it requires a certain amount of specificity or requires experience or it takes a disproportionate amount of their time. The other involves construction litigation which can run into years and exhaust the City's resources. What he has done in the past with other cities is try to decide if the case is something they can handle and make an assessment as to the likelihood if it can be resolved quickly. That is not always the case due to the multiple parties involved and he listed several of them, it can be overwhelming. Commissioner Bradford asked what is your biggest contribution going to be for the future growth of Deltona and how are you going to accomplish this for everyone, equally and fairly? Attorney Fowler replied the firm has a depth of experience nobody can touch both on the management side and significant experience representing cities that have been successful. When they started in Deltona it was a blank page, quite a bit got done including this building in those first few years. What they can bring to the City as its greatest asset is the depth of experience and a lot of experience in growth and development. It is past time to focus more efforts, intentions and resources on retail and office development. The market is there and the time is right. Attorney Segal-George replied they both have a lot of experience with economic development, CRAs, and main street. If she has any specialty, it is as a land use lawyer, she has done very specific types of land use work for Seminole County and they can get a lot of what the City is looking for. She discussed in a workshop that the City's code needs to be streamlined, the code does not work and it is an albatross around everyone's neck. The code has to be streamlined, it has to be user friendly and right now it is as far from user friendly as it can get. She has written code her whole career and she thinks it can be streamlined. They can help with development and she knows the Commission wants things to work and for the City to be user friendly. She thinks that they can because she sits on both sides, the legal and manager side, they can make pieces that did not work together in the past work together to help the City move forward. They can help the City Manager and City of Deltona Page 19 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 the Department Directors create a really strong team, make sure everyone is on the same page and she has done a lot of that work since February. There is now a public records protocol in place where before a lot of the requests were difficult and challenging. Not only is there now a protocol but, the City Clerk, herself and the City Manager work on most of the requests and everyone works well together. There is a security in that when you know what the rule is, how it is going to be dealt with and everyone is treated the same. Another example is a bid protest on a project which could have gone badly that went exceptionally well. Herself and Attorney Fowler, the City Clerk and the Public Works Director worked together to gather all the records. In the past she thinks there was a feeling say a lawyer representing a contractor were the staff may not have felt like it had its act together, they may be able to push the City to the wall, something else might happen and they might get lucky. City staff executed beautifully and the City had the situation where the bid protest was dropped. Many governments would have gotten trapped and to her those are the kinds of things they bring to the table. She was constantly in consultation with the City Clerk, Public Works and the City Manager to make sure both sides of the organization that had very different responsibilities and processes but, that everyone knew what to do, questions were asked and they were very proactive in helping everyone. This is something that she is very proud of, it was potentially a very bad situation that did not turn out bad and it showed that the City can handle things like that. Attorney Fowler stated he has represented the City of Altamonte Springs for the last 35 years. If the Commission wants to know how they will work with the City to make it successful just pick up a phone and call the former Mayor or City Manager. Mayor Masiarczyk stated tell us about a conflict you experienced in which either an elected official or a senior staff member disagreed with some legal advice you were providing. How did you navigate this situation? Attorney Fowler replied if you keep the door open and lines of communication open that really does not happen very often. When it comes to the area in which they have some level of expertise and experience he cannot think of an example. Attorney Segal-George replied she tries to really treat all elected officials the same and make sure what one Commissioner knows they all know. However, she has been doing this for 40 years and there is always that elected official that believes that is not the case; that believes that somehow they are not being treated the same as everyone else, that the attorney is not playing fair with them and the only way to deal with that is to take the high road, continue to treat the elected official just like any other elected official, continue to provide them information and continue to try and work on the relationship. A lot of times it is politics or other things and it is not personal. She agrees with Attorney Fowler that you have to keep the lines of communications open, offer the best advice and she believes that if she offers the best information, the best advice, then inherently the Commission will make the good decisions. Again, all one can do is to continue to keep that same attitude toward everyone and not get involved in the drama. Try to be as even, rational and fair as one can be. Commissioner Ramos asked in experience what role have you played to facilitate communication and how do you avoid selective communication? City of Deltona Page 20 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 Attorney Fowler replied it is not possible to avoid selective communications because some people are more open to it, people approach you and want to talk but, one has to try and make sure it does not get too out of balance. If someone does not come to see him, he will try to see them or make arrangements to see them and this includes elected officials. They try to keep that open and continuous line of communication. He stated Attorney Segal-George is right, there are occasions where a Commissioner may take a position contrary to the balance of the Commission and when that happens, you just have to understand that, treat people fairly, be open and be straight. Attorney Segal-George replied sometimes she thinks being a parent and having two children helps her and she gave an example where she would strip down an issue between the kids and go back to the beginning in order to work it out. It is not giving up, it is keeping everyone feeling secure and that one is not pitted against each other. That is a big problem not just in the public sector but, everywhere. She and Attorney Fowler do not engage in gossip and drama and they try to remove it as much as possible. They deal with serious issues all the time so they try to lighten the mood but, that is not gossip or drama. Attorney Fowler replied he does not take himself seriously but, he takes his job seriously and Attorney Segal-George replied she is the same way. Commissioner Herzberg asked sometimes during a Commission meeting where a decision needs to be made, there is a vote pending on a resolution or an ordinance and something comes up by either a member of the Commission or a member of the public that really has some possible ramifications. Maybe something was not noticed correctly or possibly something with a document that the Commission is going to vote on. How would you handle a situation where a member of the Commission or a member of the public comes up and says regarding what you are going to be voting on there is some issue here? Attorney Fowler replied just address the issue, if it was not advertised and it is required to be advertised he would tell the Commission he was sorry but, the item would need to be continued until it is advertised. The issues have to be taken and addressed as they occur at that time depending on what it is whether it was not advertised or it was written incorrectly or any other mistake that could happen. Some can be corrected on the spot like a word, punctuation or calculation. Attorney Segal-George replied she is known for being active at the dais and she believes in taking a strategic brief recess if necessary so she has a chance to look at it. When on the dais and everything is happening around you, no matter how much training you have, it is hard to focus on the issue. If a recess is called and she determines there is enough question on the issue then she would recommend the item be rescheduled. She never believes in rushing into something if there is a sense there could be an issue and it is better to stop recalibrate it and bring it to the next meeting unless there is some incredible deadline. A strategic recess is a real tool which lets everyone and the lawyer pull back think about the issue and come back to the meeting to provide a reasonable recommendation. It is all about the Commission having everything it needs to be able to decide on something and not put the Commission in a situation where they are being rushed. She is very active, she has been in situations where boards do not want her to speak as much which is hard for her and she does not wish to intrude on the City of Deltona Page 21 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 Commission's business. However, she feels that if she hears or sees something that she feels could be an issue she would ask the Mayor if she can speak or if needed pause for a break. Commissioner Honaker stated most legal departments do not get involved in matters that generate funds for a City; the Deltona Legal Department does. The legal department is actively involved in the processing and collecting of Code Compliance Department and Municipal liens, and has negotiated an agreement with a third party vendor to conduct foreclosure registrations for Deltona, which generates approximately $400,000 for Deltona's General Fund every year. Will your firm continue that support under your proposal as written; and what other techniques or processes has your firm implemented to generate funds for municipalities? Attorney Fowler replied yes, of course there is no reason not to. Attorney Segal-George replied Legal Assistant Gladys Merced is very active in the department working on that. When she and Attorney Fowler first came on board there was so much going on she did not understand some of the things that Mrs. Merced was working on. She has asked Mrs. Merced to prepare a report to document how much money is received from those liens. She states she is not saying the legal department is totally responsible for those funds but, they are challenging them, they are filing answers and trying to collect on those liens and if there is a lien of real value that the City is going after it. Attorney Fowler stated in other cities as part of an economic development program they require the developer to cover the City's cost, a deposit is required and is billed against for any work done on the project. This is something the City can do but, it does not need to happen today and will not necessarily cause someone to relocate to the City. Commissioner Honaker continues his statement, in previous interviews was the dollar amounts as far as in 2015 the City Attorney's office raised $773,000.00 and in 2016 was $519,000.00. So it does help pay for it, it is not just what is being paid out to the attorney but, the attorney is bringing money back to the City that helps pay the cost. Mayor Masiarczyk read Commissioner Alcantara's question, would a contract with your firm include all necessary personnel or will taxpayers have to pay for additional staff for your office? Attorney Fowler replied it is all inclusive but, again if the City uses an outside firm for labor negotiations there would be that. Commissioner Bradford asked you have been involved with City for several months, what are some changes you would recommend to the Commission, City Manager or staff. What would you recommend? Attorney Segal-George replied the code needs to be cleaned up, it is hurting the City, it is hurting economic development, it is not user friendly and it causes a lot of misunderstandings. In the interim she and Attorney Fowler are doing administrative City of Deltona Page 22 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 interpretation in situations where the code is not as user friendly. The idea would be to have a binder that has all the administrative interpretations in it with regard to particular matters such as the sign code. So there is some uniformity until the code can be fixed, these are how certain things are being interpreted so that everyone can read it and understand the interpretation. This is the stop gap for right now as the code is being worked on. She stated she thinks they can work on doing some things to make the City more user friendly. Attorney Fowler replied the City Manager over the past few months has asked them to develop a more customer service oriented approach when dealing with third parties that deal with the City. He spoke to the Deltona Economic Development Advisory Board (DEDAB) about Sunshine Law and the question came up can the members let everyone know the City is ready and open for business and he told them yes, that is part of your job. We need to get the word out that Deltona is open for business and that the City treats people that are engaged in business in a user friendly fashion so that they want to do business here and will come to the City. We need to make the code more user friendly, need to have rules written so people can understand them and we need to take an approach at a staff level which the City Manager is very sensitive to which is to make sure staff is approaching the rest of the world in a fashion that they will likely want to do business with the City. Mayor Masiarczyk asked how would you handle a situation where, in your opinion, you felt the Commission or Commissioner was delving into an area outside their responsibilities as outlined in the City Charter? Attorney Fowler replied he has no problem telling the Commissioner but, he would not do it in public. He would try to arrange a meeting with the individual and go over it, try and explain what he thinks the error might be whether it is outside the realm or inconsistent with State or Federal laws or Sunshine. He is struggling to think of one situation where someone was so adamant that they refused to listen to reason. Attorney Segal-George replied she always tries to create a very respectful dialog, she tries to always call people by their title and in a very respectful way tries to offer the very best advice possible. She has had situations where an elected official just did not want to take the advice and again, she provides the reasons why she is explaining the issue such as the person would be better served to work with the board rather than against the board. Sometimes it is successful and sometimes it may get them to look at the situation from a different perspective, there is a bigger picture. If that happens then it is over and the next time an issue comes up everyone is treated the same way again but, it cannot be allowed to fester or become personal. You have to continue to maintain that professional behavior and treat each Commissioner the same. Commissioner Ramos stated I know this question might be a bit awkward in the sense we are talking about time in reference to responding to whether it is a Commissioner, City Manager or Directors, what is your process? It is in reference to response time to any questions or challenges? Attorney Fowler replied it depends on the question, if it is a question that requires research then he would do the research and provide the answer. If it is a question about protocol or something he is familiar with they would get the answer while he is standing there. The City of Deltona Page 23 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 delay factor is in seconds not days, weeks or years but, if research is needed it would be done immediately or as quickly as possible and then get you the answer. If it is something that is identified that everyone should know then it is distributed to everyone. Attorney Segal-George replied they are very responsive, they respond to text, phone and email and do not let anything sit unless they are in a meeting or something like that. She stated she thinks the Commissioners that have dealt with them know that to be true, they are very responsive. Attorney Fowler stated he mentioned that he spoke to DEDAB, he showed them the book on Sunshine that comes out every year and is always being modified. He told them if they have a question to pick up the phone and call him, do not take chances. He gave the board members both his and Attorney Segal-George's phone numbers. He told them if they call, they are protected because they relied on the advice of counsel. Attorney Segal-George stated to her that is a significant difference in how they practice and how other firms practice. They are proactive, they want staff to call them and we tell them do not wait. Some lawyers wait for the explosion and when the explosion happens come see me. They are not like that, it is cheaper in the long run and it creates that team. Again, it is a significant difference between how they operate and other law firms. Commissioner Herzberg asked knowing that you represent other cities how would you deal with interlocal agreements and things that are coming up, possibly the half cent sales tax referendum and so forth. In terms of putting Deltona's interest at the forefront or at least dealing with the interlocal agreements. Attorney Fowler replied one of the things they typically do not do is represent more than one City and he does not necessarily know that it would be a conflict or potential conflict if it was an issue that might more likely occur in a county. He might represent Deltona and Volusia County, Altamonte Springs and Seminole County but, generally speaking they do not. He cannot recall a significant conflict, if it is a statewide issue like medical marijuana that is typically not something that they are going to have a chance to comment on as it is decided by the legislature. Attorney Segal-George replied they would only be representing Deltona in Volusia County, they do not represent any of the other cities and Deltona's interests are number #1. Commissioner Honaker asked based on your preparation for this interview, what are the most important legal challenges facing the City of Deltona? Attorney Fowler replied Attorney Segal-George identified the work effort to modify the code to be user friendly and then, this is not so much a legal challenge but, it is a challenge they are participating in which is enhancing the key approach in working with the City Manager to get everyone working in the same direction and making sure that the direction is consistent with the desires of the Commission so they get what they want. He has a fair idea of what that is, so that this community can evolve to its full potential. Attorney Segal-George replied there is a lot of background work that goes on that the Commission does not see. Deltona is a big City, there are a lot of agreements, foreclosures and liens and there is a significant amount of legal work that goes on that the Commission does not see. Some places that are small cities do not have these same numbers and she thinks City of Deltona Page 24 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 sometimes people forget how big a City Deltona is and how much is going on here that is behind the scenes. It is the care and feeding of the organization with regards to contracts and purchasing, there are legal issues involved with all of that. Mayor Masiarczyk read Commissioner Alcantara's question, with Union negotiations around the corner, can you tell us about your firm's experience in negotiating Union contracts. Tell us about tough challenges you faced and how you overcame that challenge. Attorney Fowler replied in this situation he would recommend to utilize an outside firm. That does not mean that they are inexperienced in the area but, to avoid animosity to develop then there is little to be gained by doing it in-house. When he first started practicing he was going to be a labor lawyer and that was the direction he started in but, he got offered a job at the City of Orlando, he turned a corner and never looked back. He stated Attorney Segal-George has done quite a bit of work as a City Manager and has experience with labor negotiations. He also worked with labor union negotiators for other cities and he knows most of them on a personal basis. Commissioner Bradford asked why do you want to work for the City of Deltona again? Attorney Fowler replied he has never not wanted to work for the City of Deltona. It broke his heart when the Commission decided to go with an in-house attorney the first time. They are back again because Deltona is a hell of a challenge and there is something to be accomplished here. Deltona has only been a City for 22 years, Deltona is in its infancy and so the affect they would have would be long term and maybe the next bond issued will have their law firm's name on it. Deltona is a challenge and he cannot tell the Commission how much he enjoys it, this is not work and there is no heavy lifting. Attorney Segal-George jokingly replied that is because she is doing all the heavy lifting. She loves local government and she spent almost her whole career working for it. She believes it is the only form of government that actually helps people and delivers services. She does not feel that way about State government and she definitely does not feel that way about Federal government. Local government whether city or county, more so with cities, have the ability to make a difference in the resident's lives. That is very powerful to her and she gets a sense of satisfaction being involved with it. Deltona is a challenge and since she has been here she has dealt with many challenges since February. They have not been easy and have been difficult at times but, for the most part the results have been good and she has gotten job satisfaction from handling those kinds of things when a staff person or a Director tells her they feel like they have turned a corner or they are moving in a good direction. She likes working with the City Manager, the Commission and staff. Again, Deltona has a lot of challenges, they think they can help and deliver the services the Commission wants, grow the City, make it better and there still is job satisfaction for her and that feeling of accomplishment. That is what motivates her to get up and makes her want to go to work. Mayor Masiarczyk asked sometimes matters come up outside of the normal business week or after hours. What will be your availability to the Commission or City Manager should issues arise? City of Deltona Page 25 Printed on 7/15/2019 Special City Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2017 Attorney Fowler replied 24/7, seriously like he said he gave his phone number to the DEDAB members if something arises. He has been called by a City Manager while walking down the street in Paris or standing on the Great Wall of China so there is no off time that they quit. If he cannot take the call when it comes in then you are the next call he makes. Attorney Fowler stated he already touched on why they want to do this, it is such a challenge and there is so much opportunity to affect results at this level. At this level you can make real change really quick and if you develop the type of staff that you are well on your way to doing the sky is the limit. Mayor Masiarczyk reminded everyone that on Monday at 5:00 p.m. there will be a Special Commission Meeting to select the new City Attorney and to turn in their questions to the City Clerk on or prior to Monday. 5. ADJOURNMENT: There being no further business, the meeting adjourned at 11:35 a.m. ______________________________ John C. Masiarczyk, Sr., MAYOR ATTEST: _____________________________ Joyce Raftery, CMC, MMC, CITY CLERK City of Deltona Page 26 Printed on 7/15/2019